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Crime & Punishment

 
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Bitter Vet - High Sec War Decs are Broken. Lets Talk :)

First post
Author
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#301 - 2015-04-22 06:15:40 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Steppa Musana wrote:
Or maybe we should lend more credibility to guys that do post with their mains, okay. Lets take a look at our options in here. We got Kaarous, with his 51 kills total in 3 years, who hasn't shot something in 4 months. Oh, and weve got Destiny Corrupted, with his 185 kills total in 6 years, who hasn't shot something in 11 months. When it comes to PVP credibility, it doesn't get any better than this folks.

I feel dirty just replying to this, but I checked, and this character has slightly over 700 kills, most of them being solo, and the rest in groups of 2-3 people. After about two years of inactivity, I'm still ranked in the top 10K on BC. I'm proud of my stats as someone who isn't very active, and when active, focuses efforts on getting kills for friends and corp members, instead of self-satisfaction.

Furthermore, this is just one of my characters. At the moment, I'm very active on another one, and I'm more than willing to provide its name, on the condition that you post with your main.


185 kills and 0 losses, I checked yesterday, I was looking for lost Blackbirds, disappointed I did not find any, but ho hum..., its good to see other people looking at the most active posters on these forums and seeing that they do not even play the game, so as this is my main, who is your main?

I will say that some of the things you have said do resonate with me, you are a more thoughtful member of the HTFU group, though it still amazes me that you lot are unable to see the possibilities of the new structures in hisec in terms of conflict drivers, I happen to think that the possibilities of this with the current war dec system are very exciting. We just have to hope that CCP do not screw this up, I noted for example some of the HTFU crowd whining about not allowing these structures in hisec, and I stongly advice that you war dec corps resist this stupidity and also call for these structures to be fully allowed in hisec.

To further ram home the disconnect Kaarous has been in CODE which does suicide ganks and not a single kill or loss since he has been in them, what does he do gank the station in Uedama? I saw him making threats here against the OP, I bet the OP is not quaking in his boots.

Anyway its been fun pulling a few strings to try to get you lot to think about just how the new structures will put skin in the game and make things more interesting, but if you want to keep your hands over your eyes and ears that's your issue.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
R I O T
#302 - 2015-04-22 06:49:31 UTC
Groan. I have exactly 587 kills in which I'm the final blower (heh), and another 200 or so in which I'm not. Just checked. I'm just gonna let these people parrot the 185 thing and tell me that I'm wrong until they finally figure it out on their own.

With regard to structures, I don't have an opinion on that yet. Whether or not they'll be good for high-sec depends entirely on what they do. Most of the ideas presented in that dev blog seemed fine, but some stuff, such as d-scan blocking and especially the thing that allows changing the security status of a system, do not belong in high-sec (or even low-sec).

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#303 - 2015-04-22 07:03:15 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
You have no clue what you're talking about. Zero. It's all conjecture about various playstyles with which you have no experience, and an inherent unfamiliarity. And until you do acquire this experience and familiarity, this stuff you say amounts to nothing more than sensationalist panic-mongering.
Ah, the old "your opinion isn't allowed, cos I say so" argument. I have a good understanding of what I'm talking about, and I know for a fact that the current crappy wardec mechanics have led to a non-existence of large non-PvP focused groups who play from the corp (rather than using it as a contract pool like red-frog).

And are you denying that competent wardec groups fight other competent wardec groups? At the end of the day, a PvE group with some PvPers is not going to suddenly be exempt from wars. They will in fact be quite attractive targets for anyone who wants a good fight that they are still likely to win.

By the way, anyone know if Carrie-Anne Moss is still about and on the way with that proof yet?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
R I O T
#304 - 2015-04-22 07:20:30 UTC
You aren't allowed to have an opinion on an objective matter. The situations you describe are exceptions to the rule. Groups staffed with competent pvpers receive a fraction of the wars received by groups consisting solely of industrialists, and when they do receive them, the wars don't lead to the common outcomes associated with the latter; there are no disbandments, or tears, or angry posts on the forums.

You're trying to build an argument around outliers, and are projecting your own issues with wars onto groups of players who don't have them.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#305 - 2015-04-22 07:50:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
You aren't allowed to have an opinion on an objective matter. The situations you describe are exceptions to the rule. Groups staffed with competent pvpers receive a fraction of the wars received by groups consisting solely of industrialists, and when they do receive them, the wars don't lead to the common outcomes associated with the latter; there are no disbandments, or tears, or angry posts on the forums.

You're trying to build an argument around outliers, and are projecting your own issues with wars onto groups of players who don't have them.
We're both allowed opinions. That's how this works. What you are saying isn't pure fact, it's simply your opinion on the mechanics as they stand.

I'm not talking about outliers, there are ZERO large scale high sec corporations with a primary focus outside of PvP that don't use alts for everything. The corps you are talking about are primarily PvP corps who do some PvE. You even linked a null sec corp as an example of the corps you are talking about.

As for my issues, I have no personal problems with wars. All of my highsec alts are in NPC corps, and when I need a char in a player corp that undocks (usually just for standing grinds without tax) it's a solo corp. My null players never enter highsec with the single exception of a couple of gankers during Burn Jita. Wardecs are irrelevant to anything I do.

The problem with wardecs as they currently stand is that the mechanics are overly simplistic and promote mass war farming over meaningful declarations between groups who actually want to oppose each other. They are a way for certain war groups to switch off concord for select corporations so they can easily pad their killboards. I'd much prefer the entire system to be replaced with a system which promotes more balanced conflict, and where PvP players can extract income directly from PvE players in areas they dominate. This would mean a PvE player then has a choice of move elsewhere, fight for control themselves, or encourage someone else to fight for control for less of a cut.

As it currently stands a PvE player has no reason to bother staying in a wardec because they can simply evade it. Removing evading isn't really an option, since you'd effectively be telling people who are unable to fight they aren't allowed to play because someone else paid 50m isk.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#306 - 2015-04-22 07:56:19 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
They are a way for certain war groups to switch off concord


That's what it's for.

See, even CCP can't really deny that highsec is bad for the game, and that Concord's present state was a mistake. But since they also, more than almost anything else, cave in to whining, they can't just savagely nerf Concord like they should. So we have wars, where at the cost of contributing to the isk sink, you can make Concord go away against certain people.

Wars exist to mitigate the mechanics that never should have existed in the first place.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#307 - 2015-04-22 07:59:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Groan. I have exactly 587 kills in which I'm the final blower (heh), and another 200 or so in which I'm not. Just checked. I'm just gonna let these people parrot the 185 thing and tell me that I'm wrong until they finally figure it out on their own.

With regard to structures, I don't have an opinion on that yet. Whether or not they'll be good for high-sec depends entirely on what they do. Most of the ideas presented in that dev blog seemed fine, but some stuff, such as d-scan blocking and especially the thing that allows changing the security status of a system, do not belong in high-sec (or even low-sec).


That is what it said on Zkill, though that site is buggy as hell so I will defer to your numbers, but while you have an active killboard, others that post all this HTFU rubbish don't. How many losses by the way?

Of course the security status change is not one I would expect in hisec, D-scan blocking is, if people are happy with D-scan immune ships (I am not by the way) why not go the entire hog...

The important thing is that people have to have skin in the game, if these structures give real benefits to the entities holding them then they will be worth having and therefore worth defending and one has to look at the war dec system meshing with that...

I read C&P a lot to see who is doing what, I noted that Absolute Defiance had a fleet fight with Marmite with battleships which they all enjoyed and that was good to see, I still think running around blowing up noobs and shuttles and the like is really sad, but each to their own. For example I just watched Marmite do an ineffectual camp in Mad in a Svipul and a Cynabal on the Niarja gate, both are GTFO ships, they got bored after 20 minutes and logged. Then a single Marmite Vexor came through, went to Uedama, then a Foresaken cloaky Tengu did the rounds, I can barely stand the excitement, I was tempted by the Vexor, but as I have a heavy cold could not be bothered. The fun of war dec's...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
R I O T
#308 - 2015-04-22 08:00:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
Lucas Kell wrote:
I'd much prefer the entire system to be replaced with a system which promotes more balanced conflict, and where PvP players can extract income directly from PvE players in areas they dominate.

I would too.

Dracvlad wrote:
I still think running around blowing up noobs and shuttles and the like is really sad, but each to their own.

Felt like I should comment on this.

I have had some amazing shuttle drops from war targets. I'm not even talking about ganks, or situations in which they were scanned and a trap was laid; I'm talking about random auto-piloting shuttle kills that drop anything from implants to a stack of skill books to tens of millions worth of tags. I always kill shuttles now. Rookie ship kills, on the other hand, are shunned by most of the high-sec hardman community.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#309 - 2015-04-22 08:04:58 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
You aren't allowed to have an opinion on an objective matter. The situations you describe are exceptions to the rule. Groups staffed with competent pvpers receive a fraction of the wars received by groups consisting solely of industrialists, and when they do receive them, the wars don't lead to the common outcomes associated with the latter; there are no disbandments, or tears, or angry posts on the forums.

You're trying to build an argument around outliers, and are projecting your own issues with wars onto groups of players who don't have them.
We're both allowed opinions. That's how this works. What you are saying isn't pure fact, it's simply your opinion on the mechanics as they stand.

I'm not talking about outliers, there are ZERO large scale high sec corporations with a primary focus outside of PvP that don't use alts for everything. The corps you are talking about are primarily PvP corps who do some PvE. You even linked a null sec corp as an example of the corps you are talking about.

As for my issues, I have no personal problems with wars. All of my highsec alts are in NPC corps, and when I need a char in a player corp that undocks (usually just for standing grinds without tax) it's a solo corp. My null players never enter highsec with the single exception of a couple of gankers during Burn Jita. Wardecs are irrelevant to anything I do.

The problem with wardecs as they currently stand is that the mechanics are overly simplistic and promote mass war farming over meaningful declarations between groups who actually want to oppose each other. They are a way for certain war groups to switch off concord for select corporations so they can easily pad their killboards. I'd much prefer the entire system to be replaced with a system which promotes more balanced conflict, and where PvP players can extract income directly from PvE players in areas they dominate. This would mean a PvE player then has a choice of move elsewhere, fight for control themselves, or encourage someone else to fight for control for less of a cut.

As it currently stands a PvE player has no reason to bother staying in a wardec because they can simply evade it. Removing evading isn't really an option, since you'd effectively be telling people who are unable to fight they aren't allowed to play because someone else paid 50m isk.


God I like you, you really tell it as it is, problem is that many of these people just are fixed into a dogma and cannot sit back and look at it objectively, I actually think that most of them want to see Eve die. The thing about Eve that makes it an interesting game is that it is more than just blowing things up and yet they fail to see it. Elite Dangerous is more fun to blow stuff up in, but it does not have the depth of Eve where it actually means something. You understand game balance, and explain it well even against the massed ranks of trolls on the Eve forums.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Noragen Neirfallas
Emotional Net Loss
#310 - 2015-04-22 08:06:42 UTC
Made a new post for ideas and not for whining. If you have any on how to fix it do it there. If you wanna dickfence (I do enjoy a good dickfence) keep it here.

CoolCool

Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment

Noragens basically the Chribba of C&P - Zimmy Zeta

Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop

ISD Buldath favorite ISD

'"****station games" - Sun Tzu' - Ralph King Griffin

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#311 - 2015-04-22 08:09:25 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
The thing about Eve that makes it an interesting game is that it is more than just blowing things up and yet they fail to see it.


CCP's retention numbers disagree with you, just so you know. There's not nearly enough stuff getting blown up in highsec these days, and that needs to change.

You can fluff for Lucas all you want, but both you and him stand squarely in the way of the game making real progress with subscription numbers and retention, and you do so in the name of the special snowflakes who aren't really playing the game in the first place anyway. I really think you actually want to see EVE die.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#312 - 2015-04-22 08:10:38 UTC
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:
Made a new post for ideas and not for whining. If you have any on how to fix it do it there. If you wanna dickfence (I do enjoy a good dickfence) keep it here.

CoolCool


Enjoy your echo chamber...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
R I O T
#313 - 2015-04-22 08:13:38 UTC
POCOs were a good step in the proper direction. Unfortunately, they were implemented for a feature that's hard to make a lot of money from, and the penalties are easy to circumvent. Game would have been much more fun if belts and agents were locked behind acceleration gates that had to be fought over, and access managed by the controlling parties, usually sold for a cost.

But CCP will never go through with something like this, because the bears will cry bloody murder that they can't make 100% of the possible profits at all times.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#314 - 2015-04-22 08:15:45 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
POCOs were a good step in the proper direction. Unfortunately, they were implemented for a feature that's hard to make a lot of money from, and the penalties are easy to circumvent. Game would have been much more fun if belts and agents were locked behind acceleration gates that had to be fought over, and access managed by the controlling parties, usually sold for a cost.

But CCP will never go through with something like this, because the bears will cry bloody murder that they can't make 100% of the possible profits at all times.


Of course, lol. Their demands to turn off the parts of the game that they don't like know no bounds, whether they're hurting the game or not.

That's the nature of selfishness.

I can't turn off the market if I don't like it, why should they be allowed to turn off PvP?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#315 - 2015-04-22 08:15:58 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
The thing about Eve that makes it an interesting game is that it is more than just blowing things up and yet they fail to see it.


CCP's retention numbers disagree with you, just so you know. There's not nearly enough stuff getting blown up in highsec these days, and that needs to change.

You can fluff for Lucas all you want, but both you and him stand squarely in the way of the game making real progress with subscription numbers and retention, and you do so in the name of the special snowflakes who aren't really playing the game in the first place anyway. I really think you actually want to see EVE die.


Its people like you who are killing Eve.

The reason why there is less and less getting blown up in hisec is that so many hisec people who don't follow your ideas have left or hardly play, most of the prey have left. Excuse me for pointing out a truth but your last kill was last year, you are currently sitting in a station in Uedama, the only special snowflake who is not playing is you.

Personally it was good to see Absolute Defiance and Marmite have a go at each other, more please, and you are in CODE go and gank something FFS.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Noragen Neirfallas
Emotional Net Loss
#316 - 2015-04-22 08:17:46 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:
Made a new post for ideas and not for whining. If you have any on how to fix it do it there. If you wanna dickfence (I do enjoy a good dickfence) keep it here.

CoolCool


Enjoy your echo chamber...

Dickfencing for you I see.

All me to parry
That post is to weed out the useless posts like yours and mine on here so far and to be a forum of ideas

And now for the riposte
It may just work as it's in this forum and a call for ideas not a ***** from the OP onwards hidden behind meaningless mostly ignored forum ALT's. Its a palce for ideas, suggestions and discussion not for what... well for what you and I are doing here Blink

CoolCool

Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment

Noragens basically the Chribba of C&P - Zimmy Zeta

Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop

ISD Buldath favorite ISD

'"****station games" - Sun Tzu' - Ralph King Griffin

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#317 - 2015-04-22 08:20:06 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
POCOs were a good step in the proper direction. Unfortunately, they were implemented for a feature that's hard to make a lot of money from, and the penalties are easy to circumvent. Game would have been much more fun if belts and agents were locked behind acceleration gates that had to be fought over, and access managed by the controlling parties, usually sold for a cost.

But CCP will never go through with something like this, because the bears will cry bloody murder that they can't make 100% of the possible profits at all times.


Well actually that is an interesting idea, unlike you I would make the more attractive stuff like null sec ores behind such things in hisec , but it would be a good conflict driver.

The agents will be available in certain structures, which I hope CCP do for hisec.

I think your not so far apart from me, apart from the fact I feel that there is a place in Eve for people who just want to do their own thing and want them to stay in the game to keep the money rolling in for CCP.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#318 - 2015-04-22 08:20:56 UTC
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:
Made a new post for ideas and not for whining. If you have any on how to fix it do it there. If you wanna dickfence (I do enjoy a good dickfence) keep it here.

CoolCool


Enjoy your echo chamber...

Dickfencing for you I see.

All me to parry
That post is to weed out the useless posts like yours and mine on here so far and to be a forum of ideas

And now for the riposte
It may just work as it's in this forum and a call for ideas not a ***** from the OP onwards hidden behind meaningless mostly ignored forum ALT's. Its a palce for ideas, suggestions and discussion not for what... well for what you and I are doing here Blink

CoolCool


Temper temper, as I said enjoy your echo chamber...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#319 - 2015-04-22 08:20:56 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:

Its people like you who are killing Eve.

The reason why there is less and less getting blown up in hisec is that so many hisec people who don't follow your ideas have left or hardly play, most of the prey have left.


This despite the verified fact that the people who get ganked or killed in a war are by far the most likely to resub and play for a longer time. Meanwhile, the people who just mine or shoot red crosses all day quit of boredom at a far higher rate. Looks like it's the exact opposite of what you're claiming, hmm?

But hey, the truth doesn't matter to carebears, I learned that a long time ago. Gotta advance that narrative, even if God himself comes down to tell you that it's a lie.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Noragen Neirfallas
Emotional Net Loss
#320 - 2015-04-22 08:22:57 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:
Made a new post for ideas and not for whining. If you have any on how to fix it do it there. If you wanna dickfence (I do enjoy a good dickfence) keep it here.

CoolCool


Enjoy your echo chamber...

Dickfencing for you I see.

All me to parry
That post is to weed out the useless posts like yours and mine on here so far and to be a forum of ideas

And now for the riposte
It may just work as it's in this forum and a call for ideas not a ***** from the OP onwards hidden behind meaningless mostly ignored forum ALT's. Its a palce for ideas, suggestions and discussion not for what... well for what you and I are doing here Blink

CoolCool


Temper temper, as I said enjoy your echo chamber...

You sir are not very good at dickfencing

Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment

Noragens basically the Chribba of C&P - Zimmy Zeta

Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop

ISD Buldath favorite ISD

'"****station games" - Sun Tzu' - Ralph King Griffin