Player Features and Ideas Discussion

The part that you are missing is that we do have ample supplies of ships to fly around — we just import them from empire. The (super)capitals that we make are also 98% built from imported empire minerals. The point of this change is to make that 98% figure go down some.

I have a posting challenge for you. Try to make a post that furthers your argument without using hyperbole or mentioning Goonswarm Federation or The Imperium in any way.

I have been lurking a bit in this thread as it moves on, and having read your posts about preserving highsec mining I do have a question for you.

As a nullsec miner I endure considerably more risk that a highsec miner. I would challenge you to show that there are more per capita highsec miner deaths from CODE etc. than nullsec miner deaths from all the people who can shoot them. The problem is that how much I make while doing that mining is 100% dependent on the ore I am mining. So if I decide to mine Veldespar then I'm making just as much (or little) as you. Possibly less since I have to be prepared to talk triple battleship belt-rat spawns or warp out every time one appears, and that doesn't even get into the risks from other players. So I need to have access to a lot of valuable ore to make it worth my time over all the other nullsec activities I can do.

So with that in mind can you come up with a way to make null mining more attractive, and make null a less logistics intensive place to live, without hurting highsec mining? As far as I can tell the only thing that would satisfy what you want is either buffing highsec mining in proportion to null (thereby maintaining equilibrium) or just admitting that mining in null is pointless and everything must be imported.

Please stop harping on this point. It has been completely, thoroughly debunked earlier in the thread. It just isn't true. Let it die.

I feel like I need a face shield to hold back the wave of spittle.

It gets a little more complicated that that.

0: Querns has already gone over the actual sizes of nullsec belts, and how it doesn't work out the way you think it does. But since you ignored it the first time, I see no reason to repeat it.

1: If we attract miners to mine in the belt, and ask them to mine Veldpsar, they want significantly more isk/hour for the same product than they would get in highsec to compensate for needing to pay attention at all times. They just won't work for 25 mil an hour like highsec psuedobots will.

2: If we pay them that, prices of everything goes through the roof, insanely high. You take a 1.2 Bil isk carrier, and then pay all the miners 50 mil an hour for their veld, it's suddenly a 3 bil isk carrier, 400 for a BS. Actual insurance returns only increase a fraction though, counterbalanced by the cheap empire ships.

3: The nullsec players predictably won't pay that, and instead tell all the miners to **** off and the alliance then moves to near highsec where they can continue to import all their ships from empire instead of paying 400 mil for a BS.

4: The half of the Eve universe that's not within jump range of empire turns into a barren wasteland.

So on a balancing scale between letting players actually get trit out of the anomalies + highsec miners losing some demand Vs. taking half of the regions in EVE to be taken out back and shot, highsec miners taking a hit is by far the least worst of the two possibilities.

I appreciate the thought out response. I'd like to address one point.





In terms of farms and fields, what is being offered by CCP Fozzie amounts to a Genetically Enhanced crop (Fozzie GE™). Less farmers and more yield. That would at face value mean less targets for the PvPers?! Additionally these targets would be within densely populated systems - reducing chance or isolated opportunities to be attacked.

Coupled with; It has been a regular posit by players that Null Sec is the end game of Eve and that players should aspire to emigrate from high-sec. Yet there is a distinct lack of recruitment for mining by null held authority. The more yield from less harvesters re-enforces this. Thus there is little welcome for miners into null. Should they remain trapped in high-sec like some ghetto?

Additionally, given the near automated player style that mining induces - out of step with the mechanics of the rest of game. Perhaps it should not be a dead-end, relegate the operation to deployable platforms and be done with a player style that has little long-term prospect.

This is not a very good analysis of the changes. Making mining more lucrative in nullsec increases player density. Currently, the best way to mine (in terms of managing one's sanity) is to gang together in small groups and shoot the shit on Mumble while you suck crok. This means a lot more people hanging out in space, in general. Plus, given the significant reduction of the high-value highend producing roids, I would argue that the yield is neutral at best, in terms of making money.

If you want to mine in nullsec, you are welcome to join a nullsec corporation, as long as you have at least one character in your stable that is military capable. (Or, if you're a genuine newbie, we'll welcome you with open arms, shower you with isk, and point you in a good skill training direction.) Personally, I only have one active military capable character in Goonwaffe, and the others on my six accounts mostly support my industrial activities.

I highly doubt that CCP will go for mining structures, as items that passively mine minerals. Most likely, they will introduce deployables that perform an intermediate step to new resources, allowing players to mine the intermediate things directly.

1: There being very little reason to have miners under the current system, even if each person can do more under the new system, the fact that it draws far more people to mine means that the actual number of miners (and this potential targets) increases drastically. It's not like there is a static demand for minerals and nobody is allowed to exceed the group quota.

On the second part, miners tend to spread out some naturally to be able to shift around in response to blopsers. With the new anomalies even 4-5 miners together can easily tank and gank the spawns and mine equally as effectively in any system in their space, so there's little force to centralize miners in one spot.

2: Not recruiting miners will be much harder once the JF nerf goes into effect at some point down the road. At that point, for regions outside of jump range of lowsec, the options will be either mine it locally, or import it through WH's (A total pain in the ass).

Even with just the anomaly changes but before the JF changes, it greatly encourages recruiting miners to regions in deep nullsec. For example, it was 5 midpoints to empire one way from my staging system a week or two ago. Round trip was nearly 100 mil in fuel and cyno's, along with 3-4 hours of time. While importing compressed veld was still feasible, it added a markup that I would have rather just paid to miners locally. There WILL be demand for miners.

3: Don't even start with automation suggestions. It's not even on the table as a possibility.

TLDR: You are looking at the current changes through a lens of what the current pre-patch situation is, not the situations that will unfold as CCP works towards their goals. There WILL be demand for miners in mid/deep nullsec immediately following this patch. The demand WILL increase in the future once CCP nerfs Jump Freighter ranges as they have said they are planning to do.

Hotdroppers roam Deklein nightly. Deklein is also a favored target for most wormholers looking for easy nullsec ganks. Goonswarm Federation's newbie-friendly recruitment policies ensure a wide buffet of folks in space without significant "street smarts."

If you seriously think anyone is belt ratting in TYOOL 2015, you have serious misconceptions about contemporary Eve: Online. CCP removed belt chaining years ago, turning a pretty poor PvE activity into hot, buttered sewage.

Nobody is doubting that.

Supers aside, the consequenses of self-sufficency goes beyond nullsec. Why would any nullsec corp want to trade anything if they can just make all the stuff they want where they live?

They can just stay where they are and never be bothered to go beyond their own borders. That may sound cool for them but everyone else it is going to be bad.

Then you talk about isk per hour, in your space and tell me about hyperbole.

Funny you mention this, again what is that money for?

In a self-sufficient space, a member asks in alliance chat 'I want x boat' and someone says 'there you go, pick it up in y station'.

In low- or highsec someone wants a boat and since nullsec doesn't want to trade anymore there are none, she or he quits.

Fights only happen in nullsec and wormholes sometimes since they can make stuff and only need a connection to low- or highsec to assemble the stuff they can make (tech3 anyone??) to use it.

Highsec sells tritanium, mexallon, pyrite, isogen and some noxcium for 1 isk per unit - happy future.

I like it. A lot.

Marry me, and we can raise our GE cows together.