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[April] Ore, Mineral and Nullsec Mining Anomaly Revamp

First post First post First post
Author
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#81 - 2015-04-15 05:26:12 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Querns wrote:

Congratulations, you've failed to understand the point of my comparison. The point was to merely illustrate how little ore is in a static belt, not to suggest that you suck only crok until you can build a house from it. Heck — I only used crokite because it was the only one whose results I could remember off hand. Forum posts don't get me to log in, sheeeeit.

Furthermore, self-limiting yourself to mining only the perfect mix of ore to build stuff is, frankly, just not that bright. It is ALWAYS far more efficient to mine the most lucrative ore you can grub up, then sell your excess to either buy minerals for production, or just buy the thing you want. CCP Fozzie and his team obviously realize this, as evident by the changes.

Except you have never surveyed a high sec belt obviously, and realised they have LESS ore than the Null belts you are busy calling useless. Yet somehow they have been supplying all your importing needs thus far. Meaning the Null belts obviously are capable of supplying your needs WITHOUT any changes to the anomalies.

Sure, you can suck forever at the most valuable ore, but by doing so you decrease it's value over time, since supply increases as a result. Hence what has happened to the ABC's, you increased supply because they were valuable, and then glutted the market.
The problem comes where you went crying to CCP to fix a self induced issue, and cried for long enough that they have changed it to artificially give you more profit again. So much for emergent game play, so much for all zones being equally valid, this is a step towards a theme park where you have to play in Null to be 'end game' otherwise you can't get anywhere or do anything.

Needed buffs to null, I'm all happy for, needless buffs like this one, yes I'll fight against because this is just pandering to null players who ALREADY have the tools they need for local industry. And are just being given more and more and more advantage now.

No, I get it — highsec belts are even more useless for making money than nullsec belts. The tradeoff is safety in both mining and getting your product to market. People very willingly accept a lower isk/hr to leverage that safety. Nullsec, being far less safe, needs the goose to actually get people into space with their nuts in the wind. Highsec currently supplies lowends to nullsec because there are far, far more people in highsec than nullsec. It isn't because of static belts being mineral manna from heaven — it's because the thin resources there are more savagely exploited due to the much higher player count.

This is the dirty secret of highsec static belts — they contain even less ideal mixes of ores, but the safety of mining the ores you do have, the wide, wide net from which to mine (all of empire space!) and literal afk hauling to market means you have a much larger plate from which to take.

Meanwhile, nullsec has no safety at all except that which we claw out; hauling is near suicidal without a JF (and then, fatigue,) and an individual nullsec pilot has far fewer places from which to mine. (Not all nullsec dwellers belong to the Imperium!)

Additionally, you are dangerously misunderstanding the reason why highends were (prior to the speculation rush) garbage. When drone poo was removed, a massive low-end faucet was closed. Low-ends became the mining bottleneck, causing high-ends to swirl around in the toilet of the market. Furthermore, since high-end bearing ores have to be mined to cycle the ore prospecting sites, those few still mining (habitation? autism co-morbidity?) continued to railroad more and more highends onto the market.

Also, this is worth requoting:
Quote:

So much for emergent game play, so much for all zones being equally valid, this is a step towards a theme park where you have to play in Null to be 'end game' otherwise you can't get anywhere or do anything.

Uh, zones in eve have NEVER been equally valid. Nullsec has larger risk; so follows larger rewards. If all zones were equally valid, why would anyone live in nullsec when you could have CONCORD watching your back? In nullsec, you can get SNIPED at any time.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#82 - 2015-04-15 05:26:57 UTC
CCP you should compensate highsec ore so our real income doesn't drop. As, usual you put not the slightest thought to "balancing" highsec ore or you just straight up don't care that you are transferring our ISK to the nullsec cartels.

Btw, what you should do is make lowsec ore more valuable and leave nullore where it is now. Lowsec is where the real challenge is in mining and according to your mantra of risk vs reward lowsec ore should be carrlying the highest premium in the game.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#83 - 2015-04-15 05:28:59 UTC
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
CCP you should compensate highsec ore so our real income doesn't drop

Hi, highsec incursions called.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Jethro Amar
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#84 - 2015-04-15 07:24:33 UTC
To all the hisec miners: I get it that you make less profit. I'm not even using the risk vs reward mantra. Just tell me one thing: what do you need that isk for?Shocked i mean, living in hisec means you never lose anything, so whatever wealth you accumulate is never used. What's the whining all about when average hisec player is probably much much wealthier than a nullsec player (taking length of play into consideration).

The problem in nullsec mining is that you can easily die in a system with 100 blues. There is no way for people to help you unless they're on grid already. Before they arrive the barge is down anyway.

Create a new module: when activated the ship is disabled and invulnerable for 30 sec. This will allow the blues to come and help, but do nothing to save a lone miner. Not working in hisec of course or having some other limitations that would keep ganks possible.
This would improve the game on a few levels. First is obviously improved mining in null and people might actually use exhumers again. It would help against cloaky campers and their lame blop drops. It would allow mining in lowsec, which is nowadays pure suicide. The most important however would be the gameplay around new idea of "owning a system". it would allow merc corps to actually have a meaning. If used in hisec it would allow for corps to fight wardeccers or pay somebody to do it. It would allow hisec players to go to lowsec and make friends with the pvpers there for protection. It would allow protection rackets in non-sov systems(curently those are impossible cause no protection can be given). It would allow a dozen other thing that I haven't thought about.
Shegox Gabriel
Free-Space-Ranger
Northern Coalition.
#85 - 2015-04-15 08:35:40 UTC
The rebalance as itself looks nice. With the current market prices for minerals is it a nice increase in Isk/h for 0.0 Mining.

I made a spreadsheet with the new 0.0 Ores & Belts here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hgOipMOuTaDLAJLeCH-q6zFq-vir9DL-waaUGx9sPtk/pubhtml [Sorry that it is in german, but most of the things should be clear [Refiningfaktor means how much you get and Steuern means taxes. Gewinn pro Hulk is how much ISK you do with a full skilled T2 Hulk [212.000m³/h].
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#86 - 2015-04-15 08:42:47 UTC
Mineral price crash for all minerals incoming.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Zappity
Exit-Strategy
Unchained Alliance
#87 - 2015-04-15 09:01:37 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We continue to believe that no area of space should be completely independent of any other, but there is a lot of room to make nullsec more self sufficient and improve the opportunities for zero-sec miners and industrialists.

Fozzie, could you briefly expand on this? Do you think that this balance pass will result in greater local null production but retain some dependence on other space?

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Neugeniko
Insight Securities
#88 - 2015-04-15 09:18:55 UTC
Changes look good. Current compressed ore prices seem to indicate the market was expecting full mineral independence for null.
Glad to see that wont be the case and there will still be a export market from Hi to Null. Expecting a slight increase in prices over the coming weeks.

Cheers,
Neug
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#89 - 2015-04-15 09:40:50 UTC
Querns wrote:
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
Summary: More ISK moves from highsec's already very modest mining returns to benefit nullsec alliances. If you can't run a logistics chain to get your supplies to nullsec, you shouldn't be operating a nullsec Corp / alliance.

Personally I'm starting a nullsec relief fund because I have seen their poverty and it's a real tear-jerker.

Hell, we are abandoning two of our regions come Fozziesov — go forth and conquer!


Itsatrap. ( ͡~ ͜ʖ ͡°)
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Singularity Expedition Services
Singularity Syndicate
#90 - 2015-04-15 10:44:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Corraidhin Farsaidh
Just caught up on this and I have to say I'm not really sure how much this will help other than transfer some of the balance of mining isk into big alliance coffers.

Miners tend to do so because they enjoy it/enjoy building stuff from their proceeds. They tend not to like combat hence avoiding it. The reasons behind this are simply not down to the ores available otherwise they would already be mining in null/WH's/losec.

These changes in all likelihood will not change the numbers mining, it'll just give null more minerals locally and increase the cost of high-ends in hisec thus nerfing production profitability there. Whether this is a good idea or not remains to be seen since the increased low-ends may mitigate some issues with jump fatigue for bulk importing.

With this change going ahead it may be an idea to add some of the most rare rocks in small amounts into hard to scan anomalies in hisec and losec for explorers to go find. Then some of the isk transfer is mitigated, production issues in nullsec are mitigated and new sites are added for explorers to find and exploit putting more pilots in space whilst rewarding actual effort more.
Hicksimus
Torgue
#91 - 2015-04-15 10:46:05 UTC
I'd like to see nullsec have its hand held less by CCP. A real fix for nullsec mining is making it much harder to import materials.

Everybody gets stuck on trade hub values because you can stuff a huge quantity of minerals in a near-0 risk ship and nearly instantly have those minerals in your home sov. Give mining some real value. Things that make my idea great! Nullsec would actually need more than 10 null miners in a 1000+ person alliance. Highsec gets nerfed because null stops bulk ordering their minerals. We collect null tears because all of their mains and alts can only fly supercapitals and ishtars which are both only good at mining for the lols.

Recruitment Officer: What type of a pilot are you? Me: I've been described as a Ray Charles with Parkinsons and a drinking problem.

Basil Pupkin
Strategic Incompetence
#92 - 2015-04-15 11:33:10 UTC
As expected, hisec mining is completely rekt. Thanks Mike, you've proven to be an armor fit laser drake of a CSM once again.

Now who has the biggest bot fleet wins eve mineral rush.

Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.

If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.

Cixi
#93 - 2015-04-15 11:51:54 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:
As expected, hisec mining is completely rekt. Thanks Mike, you've proven to be an armor fit laser drake of a CSM once again.

Now who has the biggest bot fleet wins eve mineral rush.


Minerals prices are already falling jita.
Jagoff Haverford
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#94 - 2015-04-15 12:10:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Jagoff Haverford
Vincent Athena wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
It also makes it much easier for players to decide what ore to mine if they find themselves in need of a specific mineral.

No, it does not. You mine ALL the ore in the anomaly so you can get another anomaly.

Please understand that. It has been distorting the mineral supply in the game for years. Null miners DO NOT get to choose what ore they mine, they are spoon fed what to mine by game mechanics.

This may be the most crucial point in this thread, and I don't know that CCP has ever really come to grips with it. With the current anomaly mechanics, there are no "meaningful choices" to be made in null sec mining. Even if you are desperately in need of mexallon, you spend a huge chunk of time mining other things (such as the Giant Spodumain rock), just so you can kill the current anomaly and get a new one with the ores that you actually want.
Jagoff Haverford
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#95 - 2015-04-15 12:13:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Jagoff Haverford
I know that I'm probably cheating a bit by posting a copy of what I just put up on Reddit, but:

One very interesting change here is Mexallon. It used to be very hard to get in null sec. The best ore for it (Plagioclase) simply didn't spawn in many null systems' regular belts, and there was a very limited amount of it in 0.0 anomalies. It was also widely available in high sec, and it was nearly impossible to avoid importing it if you wanted to build in 0.0.

With these changes, the best ore for Mexallon suddenly shifts to Gneiss. And not just by a little bit, either. On a per-cubic-meter basis, Gneiss out-performs Plagioclase by a whopping 57% in the production of Mexallon. For comparison, it currently produces 30% less Mexallon (per cubic meter of ore) than Plagioclase.

Null also overtakes high sec in having sole access to the best-performing sources of Isogen (now Dark Ochre, where it used to be Omber) and Nocxium (now Crokite, where it used to be a very close race between Hemorphite and Jaspet). Null sec also becomes the sole source of all Zydrine (mostly in Bistot) and Megacyte (mostly in Arkonor) in the entire game. This was largely true before, although there was a token amount of Zydrine in low sec Jaspet, Hemorphite, and Hedbergitie (as if anyone was mining there).

Basically, high sec's advantages will now be limited entirely to Tritanium (Veldspar is still the best source) and Pyerite (Scordite). The high sec advantage for Tritanium has shrunk a bit. Veldspar used to be 69% better than Spodumain in terms of Tritanium production (again, on a per-cubic-meter basis), but now it will be just 19% better.

Oddly enough, the high sec advantage for Pyerite actually increases with these changes. Scordite used to be just 11% better than Bistot in producing Pyerite. Under the new system, Scordite will best it's next-nearest competitor -- Spodumain, followed closely by Bistot -- by 53%. In this case, however, there will still be plenty of Scordite available in all regular belts throughout null sec, and the amount that will come from the anomaly-provided Spodumain and Bistot will likely be sufficient for most manufacturing.

In short, a pretty big nerf to the isk/hour of high sec mining, especially in the regions where Plagioclase is widely available.
Hoogen Blaaghen
Iaccurate Declaration Of Taxable Income
#96 - 2015-04-15 12:23:13 UTC
Sturmwolke
#97 - 2015-04-15 12:24:20 UTC
Mineral market showed a massive abnormal volume spike for Zydrine and Megacyte starting Apr 1st in Jita/Amarr.
If this change is posted on the 14th and had not been leaked through any other means (i.e Twitter etc.) 2 weeks EARLIER, then you may want to check where that leak is with IA.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#98 - 2015-04-15 12:26:06 UTC
Jagoff Haverford wrote:
Null also overtakes high sec in having sole access to the best-performing sources of Isogen (now Dark Ochre, where it used to be Omber)



Not that anyone ever mined omber, as it has, /by far/ the lowest isk/m3 of any ore.

Currently 193 isk/m3, compared to the next lowest of Veld at 238 (atm. Prices have adjusted. But these are from the mineral prices, at 100% refine)

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#99 - 2015-04-15 12:31:10 UTC
Sturmwolke wrote:
Mineral market showed a massive abnormal volume spike for Zydrine and Megacyte starting Apr 1st in Jita/Amarr.
If this change is posted on the 14th and had not been leaked through any other means (i.e Twitter etc.) 2 weeks EARLIER, then you may want to check where that leak is with IA.

Mining changes were first announced during Fanfest, on March 19th. That's when I, personally, got in.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Shing Fun
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#100 - 2015-04-15 12:35:17 UTC
Sturmwolke wrote:
Mineral market showed a massive abnormal volume spike for Zydrine and Megacyte starting Apr 1st in Jita/Amarr.
If this change is posted on the 14th and had not been leaked through any other means (i.e Twitter etc.) 2 weeks EARLIER, then you may want to check where that leak is with IA.


And in the Eve Online Show on the 1st April it was stated that in nearly every Bluprint the need amount of Zydrin /Megacyte will be doubled. Thats the Zydrin/Megacyte Spike you see.