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SP Well spent: Nighthawk vs Tengu
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Wot I Think
Doomheim
#1 - 2011-09-13 20:52:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Wot I Think
The pre-requisites for the Nighthawk are useful when not flying the Nighthawk, whereas the majority of SP invested in the Tengu is completely lost when not flying the Tengu.

Nighthawk Skills
Command Ships (8 ships)
Battlecruisers (8 Ships)
Leadership (All Ships)
Warfare Link (16+ Ships)
Heavy Assault Ships (8 Ships)
Caldari Cruiser (18 Ships)


Tengu Skills
Caldari Cruiser (18 Ships)
Caldari Strategic Cruiser (1 Ship)
Caldari Engineering (1 Ship)
Caldari Propulsion (1 Ship)
Caldari Electronics (1 Ship)
Caldari Offensive (1 Ship)
Caldari Defensive (1 Ship)

This was really a buzz-kill, anyone have any opinions?
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2011-09-13 20:59:43 UTC
Wot I Think wrote:
This was really a buzz-kill, anyone have any opinions?


You can be flying a decent Tengu inside of 4 months. It takes at least a year to have everything you described on a Nighthawk.
Wot I Think
Doomheim
#3 - 2011-09-13 21:02:43 UTC
Mfume Apocal wrote:
You can be flying a decent Tengu inside of 4 months. It takes at least a year to have everything you described on a Nighthawk.


Would you suggest a pilot who already has say BC V to go for a Nighthawk over a Tengu then?
Aamrr
#4 - 2011-09-13 21:05:47 UTC
Try taking a look at the rank on the skills you've linked there. It tells a somewhat different story. Roll
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#5 - 2011-09-13 21:13:35 UTC
Wot I Think wrote:

Nighthawk Skills
Command Ships (8 ships)
Battlecruisers (8 Ships)
Leadership (All Ships)
Warfare Link (16+ Ships)
Heavy Assault Ships (8 Ships)
Caldari Cruiser (18 Ships)


All of these skills are atleast tier 5, they take months to get to lvl 5.

Wot I Think wrote:

Tengu Skills
Caldari Cruiser (18 Ships)
Caldari Strategic Cruiser (1 Ship)
Caldari Engineering (1 Ship)
Caldari Propulsion (1 Ship)
Caldari Electronics (1 Ship)
Caldari Offensive (1 Ship)
Caldari Defensive (1 Ship)


All of these (except Cal Cruiser which you need for either ship and Strat Cruiser which you only need past 1 if you're overheating) are tier 1 skills, you can max all 5 of the subsystem skills in about 25d (or get them all to 4 in about 5 days).

In the time it takes to get just Battlecruisers 5 you could train Strat Cruiser to 3 and 4 subsystems skills to 5 and the last one to 4 (and only have another 3d to round out that last subsystem skill to 5).

So, yes, I think the skill points are easily justifiable for the Tengu, since it actually takes much less time to skill for a usable Tengu (less than a week after Cruiser 5 to get all the Subsystems to 4 and have a solid fit and another 20d to max it, vs 2-3 months after Cruiser 5 to even sit in a Command Ship, and months after that to max it).
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2011-09-13 21:16:38 UTC
Wot I Think wrote:
Would you suggest a pilot who already has say BC V to go for a Nighthawk over a Tengu then?


Depends on what he wants it for.

-If he actually wants to use leadership skills you linked, I wouldn't recommend a Tengu. I wouldn't recommend a NH either.

-If you're looking at PvE, the Tengu is hands down better in almost every situation, unless you just want to run a super passive Drake for L4s or whatever. Or if you rat/plex/mission is rather dangerous places and frequently lose your ship and want to keep the cost down.

-For PvP, the Tengu is largely better, but runs headfirst into the cost and SP loss (unless you manage to eject from your ship), so if you want to PvP more frequently and PvE less, probably want a NH.
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#7 - 2011-09-13 21:17:16 UTC
Tengu can be set up to be a better gang-bonus command ship than can a Nighthawk (or a Vulture).
If you are going to be flying [A Ship] as a gang-bonus command ship, then one must consider that you are going to be getting the Leadership, Warfare, Wing Command and Fleet Command skills in either ship; so, the only difference in which skills you will be training for this role are Battlecruiser V and Command Ships IV (or V) versus Caldari Strategic Cruiser I (or II, III, IV or V) and the subsystem skills. I do not have EVEMon with me, but I would imagine, given that all six Tengu-specific skills are Rank 1 skills that it would be faster to train the Tengu than the Nighthawk (or Vulture).

Tengu can be set up to be a better PVE pimp-mobile than can a Nighthawk (or a Vulture).
If you are going to be flying [A Ship] as a PVE pimp-mobile, then one must consider that you are going to be getting the Missile Launcher Operation skills in either ship; but, there are Leadership skills required for flying the Nighthawk that are not requirements for the Tengu. These skills are in addition to the other skills specific to each ship.


In short, it is quicker to get into either a gang-bonus role or a PVE pimp-mobile role as a Tengu than as a Nighthawk.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#8 - 2011-09-13 23:29:19 UTC
Wot I Think wrote:
The pre-requisites for the Nighthawk are useful when not flying the Nighthawk, whereas the majority of SP invested in the Tengu is completely lost when not flying the Tengu.


This is superficially true. It's also quite misleading.

Getting in to a CS of any kind is a major investment. Even if you compare the time spent training CS 5 to all five subsystems to 5 plus Caldari Strategic Cruiser to 4, the subsystem/CSC combination comes out shorter by a good margin.

Command ships are also much more limited in their roles. A NH can really only gank and tank, albeit fairly well. It's also particularly suited to swatting smaller ships with its unique bonus. A Vulture can tank and hand out bonuses (and also requires you to train into a Logi, which you didn't include).

A Tengu, in contrast, can fulfill the gank/tank role and the booster role but can additionally serve as an exploration platform, a null sec ungankable hauler, and any number of other things -- all of which are enabled by the same six skills.

Having said that, I like having CS 5. But it certainly isn't the shorter, easier route to take, and I still only really use it on two ships (NH and Sleipnir, the latter pointedly doing things a Loki isn't as suited to, the former not so much when compared to a Tengu).
stoicfaux
#9 - 2011-09-14 00:02:37 UTC
Tran Command Ships IV to V: 1,686,000 skill points (1.7 million)
Train all Tengu Subsystem skills to V: 515,000 skill points (0.5 million)

Tengu Total: 4.7 million skill points
NH Total: 7.9 million skill points

Then you need time for all the fitting, flying, and flying skills.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#10 - 2011-09-14 03:26:52 UTC
Zhilia Mann wrote:
A NH can really only gank and tank, albeit fairly well. It's also particularly suited to swatting smaller ships with its unique bonus.

The thing you call an 'unique bonus' is a pile of crap which can be easily offset by that extra rig-slot Tengu has over NH Roll

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#11 - 2011-09-14 04:03:54 UTC
Fon Revedhort wrote:
The thing you call an 'unique bonus' is a pile of crap which can be easily offset by that extra rig-slot Tengu has over NH Roll


Hey, I didn't say it was a great bonus. But objectively it is unique. Honestly if it got replaced by something actually useful I wouldn't cry one bit.


Having said that, I do like that I don't have to rig my NH to use fury missiles on damn near everything.
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#12 - 2011-09-14 04:17:23 UTC
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Fon Revedhort wrote:
The thing you call an 'unique bonus' is a pile of crap which can be easily offset by that extra rig-slot Tengu has over NH Roll


Hey, I didn't say it was a great bonus. But objectively it is unique. Honestly if it got replaced by something actually useful I wouldn't cry one bit.


Having said that, I do like that I don't have to rig my NH to use fury missiles on damn near everything.

What he's saying is that the bonus is not unique, and that you can get the same effect as that bonus by using a rig.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
stoicfaux
#13 - 2011-09-14 04:42:18 UTC
Lyris Nairn wrote:

What he's saying is that the bonus is not unique, and that you can get the same effect as that bonus by using a rig.


Eh...... depends.

NH can have
* Bay Loading Accelerator II + a Rigor I + 25% expl velocity ship bonus,
whereas the Tengu can only do
* Bay Loading Accelerator II + Rigor I, or
* Bay Loading Accelerator II + 2x Flare I (29% bonus?)

The NH can essentially have four rigs
* Bay Loading Accelerator II + Rigor I + 2xFlare I
to the Tengu's two or three.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Nezumiiro Noneko
Alternative Enterprises
#14 - 2011-09-14 07:27:14 UTC
Wot I Think wrote:

Caldari Cruiser (18 Ships)
Caldari Strategic Cruiser (1 Ship)
Caldari Engineering (1 Ship)
Caldari Propulsion (1 Ship)
Caldari Electronics (1 Ship)
Caldari Offensive (1 Ship)
Caldari Defensive (1 Ship)

This was really a buzz-kill, anyone have any opinions?



cruiser 5 needed anyway
strat cruiser.....level 1 and done. Unless cookng mods. no useful bonus. Level 4 if cooking mods, doing it wrong

Only need 2 of subsystems 5's, offensive and propulsion. rest can be 4's and be fine for level 4 work. My tengu runs fine like this, has for months. Speed tank and dps ftw



NH vs tengu.....going 0.0?


NH i have not ever heard of running 10/10's like maze solo. Tengu I have.

NH is a brick on gates that can't bubble nullify. Tengu, less of brick, can nullify. Useful feature if away from home.


If actually using command ships to actually boost as intended....look at tengu's boosts with the subsystem maxed and the uber skills you wuld have regardless to do the job proper in a command ship. Play with eft fleet booster option throwing in a shield tank test subject char to test actual numbers if motivated.

Also worth noting you would not run NH for this...it be vulture, better ship for it. Happy wth vutture as a booster a logical question that comes from this. Course someone will say not the vulture...to each their own.

So if you hate vutlure....want to run more than 1 link....brings you back to tengu. NH or tengu to fleet boost will nerf fits to run more than 1 link. Nerfing your fit either way, may as well be a damn good booster with the extra points of a tengu command sub bonus. My.02 isk anyway.





Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2011-09-14 08:57:48 UTC
Does this forum have a "Boost the Nighthawk" thread already? If it doesn't I'll start it. Actually it will be a "Every field command ship needs to be as much of an unstoppable rapetrain as the Sleipnir" thread.
Addrake
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2011-09-14 09:03:29 UTC
Boost the Astarte thread incoming...
Aamrr
#17 - 2011-09-14 09:04:50 UTC
Mfume Apocal wrote:
Does this forum have a "Boost the Nighthawk" thread already? If it doesn't I'll start it. Actually it will be a "Every field command ship needs to be as much of an unstoppable rapetrain as the Sleipnir" thread.


Agreed. On that subject, is there any reasonable justification for why the Sleipnir has one more slot than all of the other command ships? Or why it's got an extra hardpoint compared to the Absolution or Nighthawk? Or why it's so much easier on CPU and especially powergrid?

And yet I'm not asking for a Sleipnir nerf...
Sidus Isaacs
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2011-09-14 10:31:56 UTC
Go for the Tengu. NH is too meh compared to it. It is OK for PVE things, but less then stellar for PVP. Tengu excells at both.
Headerman
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2011-09-14 11:21:12 UTC
Go for the Tengu, despite it costing alot more than a NH. If you aim for a NH, you will easily be able to raise more than enough isk to buy a tengu and faction fit it out the wazoo by the time you finish your skill plan for a NH.

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Tikera Tissant
#20 - 2011-09-14 11:36:18 UTC
Wot I Think wrote:
The pre-requisites for the Nighthawk are useful when not flying the Nighthawk, whereas the majority of SP invested in the Tengu is completely lost when not flying the Tengu.


This is mainly because the tengu is extremely versatile ship (or any other strategic ship).

You can fit it for several types of roles (cover ops, missle boat, tank sometimes and others).
And you don't have buy so many ships. You can even use an orca to completely refit your ship. With a nighthawk you will have to have a BS ready at hand for example in order to switch your role, or a cov-ops ship stored someplace in order to switch to it.

So its not 100% same effect as the nighthawk, but it has a lot more options.
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