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[Scylla] Skynet - Removing Fighter Assist

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Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#1421 - 2015-04-09 19:50:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
Nolak Ataru wrote:

And finally, instead of harping on how the mechanic should be removed, tell us why the other proposed changes in this thread are bad, in 5000 words or less.


That would be lending you credibility, which I don't intend to do. Blink

Train went Choo-Choo the second drone upgrade mods were introduced.

(•_•)

( •_•)>⌐■-■

(⌐■_■)

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1422 - 2015-04-09 19:52:34 UTC
Rroff wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:

Unless it's a major PITA to code... The cyno for example require a module to be turned on so they probably were able to add some line of code on the item to perform the distance check before it can start and the effect can't be moved anyway as the cyno itself is in space and not on the ship. Carrier don't need any module to assist a fighter, didn't get locked into place and there was nothing to be locked in space since you could of bumped your own damn carrier as close as possible to the forcefield to just require a slight push to get it back to safety. It probably would of required them to create a new module just for that to anchor the carrier/super in space so it can't be bumped by any mean to be sure it can't be done in a similar relative safety.


A carrier running some kind of triage or bastion style mod for fighter delegation even bumped up against the FF is still relatively vulnerable - a "typical" skynet fit isn't very tanky: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCVsQUlP81Q even a basic 3x gyro T2 fit nag put that thanny into half shields.

(Bare in mind that in the context of that video I purposely let one hit land for demonstration reasons - in reality that nag wouldn't have got a shot off if the carrier pilot was half on the ball and with no triage or bastion style module in effect).


But what happen if when you jump or warp your nag to the POS where I am sitting if I bump my carrier inside the POS shield? Does the carrier become invulnerable for being inside the shield or does a triage module really prevent you from being bumped inside of it by any mean possible?
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1423 - 2015-04-09 20:02:55 UTC
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Nolak Ataru wrote:

And finally, instead of harping on how the mechanic should be removed, tell us why the other proposed changes in this thread are bad, in 5000 words or less.

That would be lending you credibility, which I don't intend to do. Blink
Train went Choo-Choo the second drone upgrade mods were introduced.
(•_•)
( •_•)>⌐■-■
(⌐■_■)

I really shouldn't have expected anything other than a dodge from an NPC alt. I really don't know why I'm disappointed.

Frostys Virpio wrote:
But what happen if when you jump or warp your nag to the POS where I am sitting if I bump my carrier inside the POS shield? Does the carrier become invulnerable for being inside the shield or does a triage module really prevent you from being bumped inside of it by any mean possible?
So combine the two. Make a fighter assist module AND make sure it can't be used within 50k of a tower. No Archon will survive hostile fire long enough for it to edge back into the shields.
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#1424 - 2015-04-09 20:06:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
Smile

This change is obviously in prep for the FozzieSov, and I'm glad they saw reason.

So get gud, while there's still time. Blink

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Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1425 - 2015-04-09 20:15:31 UTC
Nolak Ataru wrote:
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Nolak Ataru wrote:

And finally, instead of harping on how the mechanic should be removed, tell us why the other proposed changes in this thread are bad, in 5000 words or less.

That would be lending you credibility, which I don't intend to do. Blink
Train went Choo-Choo the second drone upgrade mods were introduced.
(•_•)
( •_•)>⌐■-■
(⌐■_■)

I really shouldn't have expected anything other than a dodge from an NPC alt. I really don't know why I'm disappointed.

Frostys Virpio wrote:
But what happen if when you jump or warp your nag to the POS where I am sitting if I bump my carrier inside the POS shield? Does the carrier become invulnerable for being inside the shield or does a triage module really prevent you from being bumped inside of it by any mean possible?
So combine the two. Make a fighter assist module AND make sure it can't be used within 50k of a tower. No Archon will survive hostile fire long enough for it to edge back into the shields.


If it does not anchor you, what prevent me from bumping my own ship with an alt at the very edge of the POS shield or the POS itself to use my garage door to shield myself? Will the module stop working as soon as I get too close?
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#1426 - 2015-04-09 20:34:30 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:

If it does not anchor you, what prevent me from bumping my own ship with an alt at the very edge of the POS shield or the POS itself to use my garage door to shield myself? Will the module stop working as soon as I get too close?


The "garage door" type techniques would keep you safe (currently) but a carrier running a triage or bastion type module will take a bit of bumping even if its right up against the FF - by the time you've carried out the manoeuvre the carrier is potentially dead.

Disallowing fighter delegation within ~50km of the POS would have made sense with or without such a module and made it a lot harder to make a carrier too safe while delegating.
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#1427 - 2015-04-09 20:34:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
Calexis Atredies wrote:
This thread has more pages than all the other nerf threads combined!

I am going to need a bigger bucket for all the tears... brb


Is gut thread, sister. Still reading... and touching myself... Page 59. Smile

/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUZsKXSEU8M Missing horror film music. Smile

xdeath posting CTA on Page 58, involving something something PVE carriers.

Price of PLEX should be 700m. in a month or two. Blink

Jennifer Maxwell wrote:
I train up for a carrier specifically to use it for skynetting, because I think that's an awesome mechanic and would love to do it.

They're removing skynetting 2 days before my training finishes.



Touche. Smile

Jennifer Maxwell wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:

It's like anything else in this game: If it gets abused, the nerf bat lurketh.

Just like Ishtars, right?

Oh wait.


The longer it is ignored, the harder it swings, sista. Blink

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[Cruisers Online]
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1428 - 2015-04-09 20:58:27 UTC
Rroff wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:

If it does not anchor you, what prevent me from bumping my own ship with an alt at the very edge of the POS shield or the POS itself to use my garage door to shield myself? Will the module stop working as soon as I get too close?


The "garage door" type techniques would keep you safe (currently) but a carrier running a triage or bastion type module will take a bit of bumping even if its right up against the FF - by the time you've carried out the manoeuvre the carrier is potentially dead.

Disallowing fighter delegation within ~50km of the POS would have made sense with or without such a module and made it a lot harder to make a carrier too safe while delegating.


If you don't have a module to make a check every X amount of time, you will delagate from 50001 meters and then slowboat toward the POS because the fighter are already delegated. That's why I say you need to be anchored at that distance or else people will definately have to will to try to bump themselves back toward the shield.

It's EVE, where there is a way there is a will.
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1429 - 2015-04-09 21:12:26 UTC
2 things:
1) Garage Door Cynos are being or have been patched out. And I mentioned 50km or so from the *tower*, not the shield.
2) An anchor-type module that consumed no fuel coupled with a simple check every second / cycle would do it for the module. Hell, even every 5 seconds would be fine.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#1430 - 2015-04-09 21:17:33 UTC
The technique of using the forcefield like a door however (AFAIK) isn't being changed - which still allows that mechanism to be used for non cyno use to make things safe.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1431 - 2015-04-09 21:29:24 UTC
Nolak Ataru wrote:
2 things:
1) Garage Door Cynos are being or have been patched out. And I mentioned 50km or so from the *tower*, not the shield.
2) An anchor-type module that consumed no fuel coupled with a simple check every second / cycle would do it for the module. Hell, even every 5 seconds would be fine.


You can still garage door yourself if you are already inside where the shield will cover. If you can somehow be bumped after assisting the drones away, we sadly ahve to assume people will put in the effort.

Do we have any module that really anchor you? The only one I am used to is the Cyno and it's not an anchor. You can still be bumped in any direction. You would need to be anchored in space like a POS for example.

And all of that assume it's not 100% stupid to be able to apply damage while of grid too...
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1432 - 2015-04-09 21:43:42 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Nolak Ataru wrote:
2 things:
1) Garage Door Cynos are being or have been patched out. And I mentioned 50km or so from the *tower*, not the shield.
2) An anchor-type module that consumed no fuel coupled with a simple check every second / cycle would do it for the module. Hell, even every 5 seconds would be fine.


You can still garage door yourself if you are already inside where the shield will cover. If you can somehow be bumped after assisting the drones away, we sadly ahve to assume people will put in the effort.
Do we have any module that really anchor you? The only one I am used to is the Cyno and it's not an anchor. You can still be bumped in any direction. You would need to be anchored in space like a POS for example.

And all of that assume it's not 100% stupid to be able to apply damage while of grid too...


Bastion, Siege, Triage, Industrial Core. Some fascinating properties occur when you turn those modules on. As I said, if you get closer than 50km or so to the control tower, not the shield, the fighters will return, however the module will not turn off.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#1433 - 2015-04-09 22:23:15 UTC
^^ Yup bumping a carrier in triage takes some effort - and really needs either out of control mass from another capital or something like a machariel with a good run up. Though if your sitting 1m from safety its doable - I've seen an archon in triage bumped before upto enough speed to reduce damage from citadel missiles.
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1434 - 2015-04-09 22:28:26 UTC
Rroff wrote:
^^ Yup bumping a carrier in triage takes some effort - and really needs either out of control mass from another capital or something like a machariel with a good run up. Though if your sitting 1m from safety its doable - I've seen an archon in triage bumped before upto enough speed to reduce damage from citadel missiles.


Which is why I specifically stated that you wouldn't be able to assist or keep fighters assist within a certain distance that would be outside the bubble.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#1435 - 2015-04-09 23:44:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevyn Auscent
The fact you have to make such a convoluted mechanic simply to even attempt to stop skynetting should be telling you things. Convoluted mechanics are bad. Mechanics that require being exactly x distance from things are also bad due to how fiddly they are, and the fact distance checks are not pretty on run time.

You also aren't considering the possibility that CCP wanted fighter assist for ratting to go as well.
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1436 - 2015-04-10 12:23:25 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
The fact you have to make such a convoluted mechanic simply to even attempt to stop skynetting should be telling you things. Convoluted mechanics are bad. Mechanics that require being exactly x distance from things are also bad due to how fiddly they are, and the fact distance checks are not pretty on run time.

You also aren't considering the possibility that CCP wanted fighter assist for ratting to go as well.


They could just inhibit assisting fighters within 50km of the tower and call it a day, and that'd solve a lot of their problems.

Fighter assist on ratting one way to help new players earn some ISK. Assisted fighters do less damage than bonused drones on a drone boat, from my math. If CCP wants to let caps take acceleration gates, then I'd say it's a fair trade-off. But as it stands right now, CCP's cutting off their face to spite their nose.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1437 - 2015-04-10 13:49:34 UTC
Nolak Ataru wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
The fact you have to make such a convoluted mechanic simply to even attempt to stop skynetting should be telling you things. Convoluted mechanics are bad. Mechanics that require being exactly x distance from things are also bad due to how fiddly they are, and the fact distance checks are not pretty on run time.

You also aren't considering the possibility that CCP wanted fighter assist for ratting to go as well.


They could just inhibit assisting fighters within 50km of the tower and call it a day, and that'd solve a lot of their problems.

Fighter assist on ratting one way to help new players earn some ISK. Assisted fighters do less damage than bonused drones on a drone boat, from my math. If CCP wants to let caps take acceleration gates, then I'd say it's a fair trade-off. But as it stands right now, CCP's cutting off their face to spite their nose.


What if caps were not intended to be used that way especially since they are about to be re-purposed according to CCP? What if CCP just though no matter how safe or not, you aren't supposed to off-load your damage potential to another ship from ouside the grid?

Want to use your cap, how about you bring it on the field instead of keeping it X AU away from what it's helping achieve?
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1438 - 2015-04-10 16:14:13 UTC
1) Off Grid Boosters.
2) If they were going to re-purpose them, they should have either a) given us some hint or b) held off until they were going to enact the actual change.
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#1439 - 2015-04-10 16:27:06 UTC
OGB is the same cancur that will be dealt with shortly.

There are/were no technical solutions for either of them. Blink

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[Cruisers Online]
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1440 - 2015-04-10 16:51:25 UTC
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
OGB is the same cancer that will be dealt with shortly.
There are/were no technical solutions for either of them. Blink


Wrong.
Boosters are no longer unscannable, and can no longer boost from inside a shield. Just add in a limit to the distance from a POS and you're golden.