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Unlimited Neural remaps...The new isk dump..

Author
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1 - 2011-09-14 02:41:18 UTC
After thinking about it for a little while, what's the point of limiting neural remaps to once a year???

What's the point in limiting neural remaps at all??

Why not make it an isk dump instead.

Not player controlled, but you have to be at a station with a medical facility in order to pay to remap.

Make it a reasonable price so that it's available to most players, but not like clone cheap....Maybe 100mil per remap


There is no difference in a players remapping, training a years worth of skills affected possitively by that remap, then remapping again and training another group of skills related to that remap.

If they allowed you to remap whenever at a cost of isk, you would still be training all those skills at the same speed, you would just be able to mix and match how you trained the skills.

So if you need to traing up some missile skills, remap and train them, and if you plan to follow up with some shield skills you can remap again and train those skills the same year... Hell, maybe even the same week.



This would be more orderly for the players... Allowing us to train the skills that we need to train during a remap instead of a schlew of skills we may not need, but are just training just cause we're remapped in that manner.....

It would be more beneficial to the players, expecially the newer players, and it being allowed at a fairly reasonable price allows it to be balanced for all players, but not super easily achieved, and still a somewhat costly change.


It also creates and isk dump, which is one of the things that CCP has been needing to add.....



DO NOT EVER MAKE NEURAL REMAPS PURCHASABLE FOR REAL MONEY!!!! IT'S UNFAIR TO US POOR PPL!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Graeme Rowney
For The Pink
#2 - 2011-09-14 02:53:34 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:

DO NOT EVER MAKE NEURAL REMAPS PURCHASABLE FOR REAL MONEY!!!! IT'S UNFAIR TO US POOR PPL!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Are you forgetting about PLEX you can anything for real money using plex. One of eves core ideas is that it rewards the people that invest time and work into it instead of people that in real life are rich. That is the way it should stay. Granted training is a pain at times and we all have to do it but the point is we do. And we keep coming back. The longer we have to train for the more we have to pay for our subscription/buy plex CCP like it when we do that.
Headerman
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2011-09-14 02:54:17 UTC
When i first started playing i had NFI what a remap was, so i tried it once, did it, then thought 'yay' then remapped it back. 12 months later i could remap properly o.0

Idea is a good one, even though it borders on 'ISK for SP'.

I do like your suggestion but to make it easy for newbies, i would say increase the cost of the remap linearly with total SPs you have, making it cheap for newbies, expensive for older players.

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Graeme Rowney
For The Pink
#4 - 2011-09-14 03:11:41 UTC
Headerman wrote:

I do like your suggestion but to make it easy for newbies, i would say increase the cost of the remap linearly with total SPs you have, making it cheap for newbies, expensive for older players.


I do like this idea helping newer players get into the game is always good. However the issue is that isk can be transfered from alts so when older players/players willing to buy PLEX create a new character it can grow much faster than a player who is not so rich in real life and has not other chars. And thats just plain not fair.
Nezumiiro Noneko
Alternative Enterprises
#5 - 2011-09-14 04:11:05 UTC
Headerman wrote:

I do like your suggestion but to make it easy for newbies, i would say increase the cost of the remap linearly with total SPs you have, making it cheap for newbies, expensive for older players.


why?



CCP over years has finally levelled the traning field, why would they break all that work.


First there was bloodline based stats. Rolled combat, nerfed egghead stats points

Then came generic stats with learning skills. Noob whined well bitter vets have learning 5's, bittervets said stfu, you have more stat points than I do since ccp didn't reset stat points for this change.

then ccp said, fine.....no more learning skills, full stats reset and everyone the same. Want more, pick your implants. +3 to +5.


This progress shows clearly ccp want equal trains for all. this price structure in mind would break that trend, not happening.

well that and older players already pay too much for their sp's with med clone costs. Penalized enough as is. More frequent remaps just make those clones more expensive faster...means they pay extra money anyway, jsut in a different way.
Elindreal
Planetary Interactors
#6 - 2011-09-14 04:18:08 UTC
no more remaps!
race and strata have had their uniqueness and qualities obliterated!
Herping yourDerp
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2011-09-14 04:28:44 UTC
Nezumiiro Noneko wrote:
Headerman wrote:

I do like your suggestion but to make it easy for newbies, i would say increase the cost of the remap linearly with total SPs you have, making it cheap for newbies, expensive for older players.


why?



CCP over years has finally levelled the traning field, why would they break all that work.


First there was bloodline based stats. Rolled combat, nerfed egghead stats points

Then came generic stats with learning skills. Noob whined well bitter vets have learning 5's, bittervets said stfu, you have more stat points than I do since ccp didn't reset stat points for this change.

then ccp said, fine.....no more learning skills, full stats reset and everyone the same. Want more, pick your implants. +3 to +5.


This progress shows clearly ccp want equal trains for all. this price structure in mind would break that trend, not happening.

well that and older players already pay too much for their sp's with med clone costs. Penalized enough as is. More frequent remaps just make those clones more expensive faster...means they pay extra money anyway, jsut in a different way.


no...
racial changes was because certain races were better then others because of the stats.
learning skills were stupid in general, a newbie would be told " oh yea train learning skills, it will take about a month but then u can train for that frigate u get from tutorial mission"...



i like this idea for a few reasons
Isk dump
remaps only knock off a few weeks per year of training.
isk dump.

100 mil isnt much, but still newbs start with 2 remaps, and maybe every year u get a free one but other then that why not.
Sir Substance
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2011-09-14 08:01:10 UTC
The reason they don't have purchasable remaps is because if you did, why bother having attributes at all?

If an isk splash can buy the best attributes for a specific skill queue, why not just have every skill train at max rate, have one implant that increases training speed by a %, and be done with it?

The beatings will continue until posting improves. -Magnus Cortex

Official Eve Online changelist: Togglable PvP. - Jordanna Bauer

Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#9 - 2011-09-14 15:11:57 UTC
Graeme Rowney wrote:

Are you forgetting about PLEX you can anything for real money using plex. One of eves core ideas is that it rewards the people that invest time and work into it instead of people that in real life are rich.


Not correct. Rich players can buy characters and can buy plexes to sell to get them any ship in the game once they've trained the skills.

Right now I'm working on affording a golem with a pithum a-type medium shield booster. If I were wealthy or rich I'd already have one thanks to plexes.

headerman wrote:

When i first started playing i had NFI what a remap was, so i tried it once, did it, then thought 'yay' then remapped it back. 12 months later i could remap properly o.0

Idea is a good one, even though it borders on 'ISK for SP'.

I do like your suggestion but to make it easy for newbies, i would say increase the cost of the remap linearly with total SPs you have, making it cheap for newbies, expensive for older players.


I think that's probably the way it worked out for most new players. We've all waisted at least one remap.

Now, as far as your idea. It's really not gonna make it fair to make it cheaper for noobs. The reason why is because most of us older players weren't given the chance as noobs to do this.

So if they allow noobs to train faster than we were able to, then it would be unfair to also make it cheaper for them.

using the 100mil isk is something you'll work your way into. You can just start the game and have 100 mil isk every time you wanna remap. Making it cost that much is still cheap enough, but it also sets a small sense of accomplishment to be able to get that 100mil

herping wrote:

i like this idea for a few reasons
Isk dump
remaps only knock off a few weeks per year of training.
isk dump.

100 mil isnt much, but still newbs start with 2 remaps, and maybe every year u get a free one but other then that why not.


actually, I think if you started a 1 year training plan a remap could actually knock off up to 2 months, but either way, there's not difference between doing planned out skills for a year and being able to train skills as you need them

Sir Substance wrote:

The reason they don't have purchasable remaps is because if you did, why bother having attributes at all?

If an isk splash can buy the best attributes for a specific skill queue, why not just have every skill train at max rate, have one implant that increases training speed by a %, and be done with it?


Uhh, going to last statement, if there's no difference between the training time if you train certain skills with a remap and if you remap a couple time to train different skills.

2nd, eve needs another isk dump. This would be perfect cause it's something EVERYONE would use, so it would actually dump a lot of isk.
An isk splash wouldn't buy the best attributes unless you already had the best implants. Also, it adds a dynamic to the game by allowing remaps instead of allowing skills to train at max rate.

Again though, there really isn't much difference between allowing unlimited remaps as compared to once a year remaps other than the time you have to wait......

Also, it's actually a bit unfair when it comes to remaps. Lets say you and I both remap to train ship skills.

You train for gallente ships and I train for caldari ships.

We've trained for the ships that we want, and now we're gonna train weapon skills.

But wait, we can't remap.

So now your turret skills are gonna take longer to train..

What's this though??? Missiles require the same attributes as ships, so I get to train my missile skills faster.

So that's unfair, and that balance is another reason for allowing unlimited remaps.


This suggestion Isn't something that's going to break the game.

There's no one in the game that will be able to train all the skills before CCP gets new ones, but if they do, congrats player, and your bad CCP.

Most players in the game won't bother remapping as it is. Even if a player has a dedicated 1 year plan, most players realize that if anything comes up that might require you to train an unintended skill, then you're boned, so the just don't bother remapping and keep their points balanced.

So basically, the current neural remap system is a failure. So lets open it up and use my suggestion and see where it goes from there.

They could always take it away later if it didn't work out properly, but personally, I see no difference, and feel that it would actually benefit eve and the players.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#10 - 2011-09-14 16:19:42 UTC
bump the new isk dump
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#11 - 2011-09-15 00:13:29 UTC
No one else wants to comment on this??
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#12 - 2011-09-15 00:38:47 UTC
Isk dump =| cost of business.


Ill say this and hopefully it will dawn on you, but this purposal would result in such neglible denting in the isk volume it would be a mist sprinkle in the bucket. Mining belive it or not is a bigger isk sink than this.

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shadowace00007
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2011-09-15 00:59:25 UTC
Not a good idea. Example being I have been looking at remapping and I could nock 20 days off of a 60 day train, then pay 100M and do it again and again. Its Not a good idea. I do think noobs should get 2 remaps in the first year. Simply because, You can **** it up bad when you do it. I got lucky and decided to set myself up to be flat once I found out what it did. because I had no idea what I wanted to do. I just knew it could **** me up if I did not play it smart.

Born Amarrian Raised Minmatar.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#14 - 2011-09-15 11:01:30 UTC
No.

Being able to pay to bypass game mechanics is a horrid idea, no matter what the payment method is.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#15 - 2011-09-15 14:01:27 UTC
Nova Fox wrote:
Isk dump =| cost of business.


Ill say this and hopefully it will dawn on you, but this purposal would result in such neglible denting in the isk volume it would be a mist sprinkle in the bucket. Mining belive it or not is a bigger isk sink than this.


How is mining an isk sink??? Are you referring to the price of items? Because what I'm referring to is the actual removal of isk from the game.


shadowace wrote:
Not a good idea. Example being I have been looking at remapping and I could nock 20 days off of a 60 day train, then pay 100M and do it again and again. Its Not a good idea. I do think noobs should get 2 remaps in the first year. Simply because, You can **** it up bad when you do it. I got lucky and decided to set myself up to be flat once I found out what it did. because I had no idea what I wanted to do. I just knew it could **** me up if I did not play it smart.


Correct, but let me say this.

If you set up a years worth of training, once you've remapped you'll knock of about 2 month worth of that training time.

Now, a player that has a dedicated training program that will take the full length of a year is set, and even though the training is taking a year, the player is knocking off at least 2 month worth of training.

But, here's the problems.

1) If they player decides they want to train something else in the middle of this because it's something they need now, they'll have to take longer to train that other skill

2) This one year skill training would have to be set towards skills effected possitively by the neural remap. This is quite hard to do. If you're training for a super carrier, for a lot of people it won't take a year, so you'll have spair time on that year que. However, you can't just go train drone skills because they're negatively effected by remapping for ships. So you have to train pretty much random skills affected by the remap and most of that training is just gonna be random skills that you may need, but you're waisting time cause it's not what you know you need.

3) You can't change your mind on what you want to train, unless you a) it's affected possitivily by the remap, or b) you're willing to take the time loss.

Because of the fact that you pretty much can't change your mind, mix skills of different trees, or add in skills you need now, most players don't even bother doing a remap, unless they have 2 available so that they can balance back out when they're done.
So it's basically pointless to have neural remaps available because most players feel it's a bad idea to use it.

Tippia wrote:
No.

Being able to pay to bypass game mechanics is a horrid idea, no matter what the payment method is.


Actually, if they change it to allow the players to pay isk to remap, than that would be the game mechanic, so you wouldn't be bypassing anything.



Back to a point that I had listed earlier.

There is no difference between a player remapping 20 times and training skills for a year, and a player only remapping once in a year and training skills affected by that.

Either way, both players are reducing the training times by the same amount. The only differences are the player paying isk to remap has the ability to train skills they need to train instead of a plan followed by random skills, and the player paying isk will have to pay 2 billion to do this. That's a pretty hefty price to train skills.


The neural remap system is currently broken. I say it's broken because the only time players will risk using it to actually speed up a training que is if they a) have a plan that will take a full year that they are CERTAIN they won't change or b) they have a second available to remap back to balanced.

My suggestion would allow the players to train the skills they need in the manner they need at a cost of isk.

This would be fair to all players in the manner of how you remap.

There is no difference between remapping once a year and training skills affected by the remap, and remapping often to train skills.

Either way you set the remap, if you train only skills effected by the remap in both situations, then length of time it would take you to train every skill in the game would be the same. Hell, it would actually take you longer to train the skills remapping constantly because you would have to stop training for every remap.

Point being, the only thing lost in the change is isk from the players, and the only thing gained is skill training diversity.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#16 - 2011-09-15 14:04:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Joe Risalo wrote:
Actually, if they change it to allow the players to pay isk to remap, than that would be the game mechanic, so you wouldn't be bypassing anything.
…except you'd still pay ISK to bypass a game mechanic. This makes it inherently bad. So still no.
Quote:
There is no difference between a player remapping 20 times and training skills for a year, and a player only remapping once in a year and training skills affected by that.
Yes there is. One is limited by the game mechanic called Attributes; the other is not. One has to plan his skill training due to this mechanic; the other does not.

…and, as mentioned, being able to pay to bypass a game mechanic is bad. Very bad.
Quote:
This would be fair to all players in the manner of how you remap.
No, it would not be fair since it would not apply the game mechanics equally to everyone. Again: some would have to deal with the mechanics of attributes and some would not. And just to pre-empt that argument, “but everyone can…” does not make it fair — because 1. no, not everyone can, most notably, it leaves new players in the dust, and 2. no, it would rather force people to use this mechanic to remain “fairly treated”. Both of these make it inherently unfair (and, btw, buying your way out of having to adhere to game mechanics is also inherently bad).

Here's how you make it fair: everyone has to choose between either having more freedom in what to train without losing out too much on training speed at the cost of having a lower training speed on average, or being able to train some thing more quickly at the cost of having next to no freedom in what to train (or rather, being in a situation where training the wrong things comes at a huge cost). Everyone therefore has to plan their training and weigh the pros versus the cons of various strategies.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#17 - 2011-09-15 14:24:01 UTC
Tippia wrote:
except you'd still pay ISK to bypass a game mechanic. This makes it inherently bad. So still no.


Again, if the game mechanic is to pay isk to remap, than you're not paying to bypass the mechanic. You're just using the mechanic.

Quote:
Yes there is. One is limited by the game mechanic called Attributes; the other is not. One has to plan his skill training due to this mechanic; the other does not.


Again, reguardless of how you set the remap system, both players would complete all skill training in the same amount of time if they only train skills boosted by the remaps.

You're saying that creating an isk dump that allows you to remap whenever is paying to bypass a game mechanic, but with this thought you would also have to say that once a year CCP give the players the opportunity to bypass the game mechanic of attributes.
I say this because whether you do it once a month or once a year, you're still bypassing the mechanic called Attributes and it's not really that bad....

Quote:
No, it would not be fair since it would not apply the game mechanics equally to everyone. Again: some would have to deal with the mechanics of attributes and some would not. And just to pre-empt that argument, “but everyone can…” does not make it fair — because 1. no, not everyone can, and 2. no, it would force people to use this mechanic to remain “fairly treated”. Both of these make it inherently unfair (and, btw, buying your way out of having to adhere to game mechanics is also inherently bad).



Actually, it would apply the game mechanics equally to everyone.

Once you're able to make 100 million isk, which isn't all that much, then you're able to remap just like everyone else that has 100million isk.

Once a player can afford 100million isk they can do a remap.

100million isk is not at all an unattainable amount, and players that have been in the game longerand know good ways to make isk will actually have an itentifiable eliteness in that they can afford more remaps.

100million isk is still quite an affordable amount to pay, but it's not exactly "hey so simple amount of isk"

Either way you role it, you're training skills just as fast as someone who schedules around a 1 year remap. You just have the ability to train skills as you need them for a balanced price.
shadowace00007
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2011-09-15 14:25:29 UTC
Quote:
Correct, but let me say this.

If you set up a years worth of training, once you've remapped you'll knock of about 2 month worth of that training time.

Now, a player that has a dedicated training program that will take the full length of a year is set, and even though the training is taking a year, the player is knocking off at least 2 month worth of training.


Only if your training skills the the same primary and secondary attributes.

Quote:
1) If they player decides they want to train something else in the middle of this because it's something they need now, they'll have to take longer to train that other skill


Yep That's there mistake for not planning better

Quote:
2) This one year skill training would have to be set towards skills effected positively by the neural remap. This is quite hard to do. If you're training for a super carrier, for a lot of people it won't take a year, so you'll have spare time on that year que. However, you can't just go train drone skills because they're negatively effected by remapping for ships. So you have to train pretty much random skills affected by the remap and most of that training is just gonna be random skills that you may need, but you're wasting time cause it's not what you know you need.


If your training for a Super Carrier then your training should take more then a year. If your not. Your doing it wrong. Carrier 4 takes about 10 days, and 5 takes 56 days, and Fighters 5 takes 53 days that's over 4 months on its own, (on a 20 20 19 20 20 Map with +3s) and you plan your skill tree to best work with the skills you will be training, I currently am training leadership skills because my remap is flat, here soon it wont be but they are the only skills that take charisma and its holding down the rest of my trainings. You just have to be smart about it and plan or if you don't plan Make it flat.

Quote:
3) You can't change your mind on what you want to train, unless you a) it's affected possitivily by the remap, or b) you're willing to take the time loss.

Because of the fact that you pretty much can't change your mind, mix skills of different trees, or add in skills you need now, most players don't even bother doing a remap, unless they have 2 available so that they can balance back out when they're done.
So it's basically pointless to have neural remaps available because most players feel it's a bad idea to use it.


No idea what your talking about. the best way to do skill training, Is to make it as flat as you can for the first year because of all the skills you will need over all, then when you start to come into your own you train just skills that are effected by that. Right now my current skill list is 84 Skills, 31 Unique and will take 518 days. I am trying to bring it down to where it is skill reflecting the same attributes over a year of training. then I will remap. If I did my list right now I would only save 21 days. because of the mix of skills. so the mortal of the story. Plan your training, and you will be fine. If you cant plan that well stay flat.

Born Amarrian Raised Minmatar.

Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#19 - 2011-09-15 14:31:59 UTC
shadowace00007 wrote:

If your training for a Super Carrier then your training should take more then a year. If your not. Your doing it wrong. Carrier 4 takes about 10 days, and 5 takes 56 days, and Fighters 5 takes 53 days that's over 4 months on its own, (on a 20 20 19 20 20 Map with +3s) and you plan your skill tree to best work with the skills you will be training, I currently am training leadership skills because my remap is flat, here soon it wont be but they are the only skills that take charisma and its holding down the rest of my trainings. You just have to be smart about it and plan or if you don't plan Make it flat.



Training for a super carrier and training for drones are effected by 2 different remap plans, so you're waisting time if you train any drone skill while remapped for ships. So what are you gonna train in the mean time???? Just wing it and train for t2 destroyers or something????
shadowace00007
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#20 - 2011-09-15 15:07:06 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:

Training for a super carrier and training for drones are effected by 2 different remap plans, so you're waisting time if you train any drone skill while remapped for ships. So what are you gonna train in the mean time???? Just wing it and train for t2 destroyers or something????


No. if your training for a carrier then you take into account that your drones as well. Why Because whats the point of a carrier without fighters. Everything has a place, Your going to lose time but you set your skills your going to need, Try to set yourself up so you save the most time as possible but Your going to need skills that are against the grain. Example being Right now I am set better for fighters So I am going to train some of the skills before my remap. but training it up to 5 Would be pointless because I will need to be flying it sooner then lvl 5. Now if your the kind of person who insists on best training time before a remap then you wont be in your ship for alot longer, but If your a normal person you look at time lost to time till you think your skills are at the point where you will fly it. I garintee that I will have carrier 5 before I step foot into a Super cap. but a standard carrier 3 is fine for me.

Born Amarrian Raised Minmatar.

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