Player Features and Ideas Discussion

...the best AFK cloaking camping botter is a banned one.

On a side note, maybe the fix for that is the old suggestion of requiring some type of fuel to activate and maintain a cloak, that way it's not an infinite ability. But that's off topic.

No matter how the OA winds up working, the important thing (in my opinion) that the hunters have a realistic amount of time to probe down and chase their prey. It can't be as simple as de-cloak and re-cloak 10 seconds later. There should be more of a cloak fatigue timer which is started by the OA, perhaps one that lasts longer the longer you're cloaked.

I'm harping on the cloaking issue because it is by far the most broken feature the Observation Array aims to fix. If you read my previous post I'm hoping the de-cloaking mechanic promotes a kind of realistic and enjoyable hunter vs. prey relationship that can be fun and challenging for everyone. I suppose, however, after years of ignoring the issue, I'd be just happy for CCP to do something... anything... about AFK cloaking campers.

The rest is just gravy for me.

I *do* think the OA has a ton of potential, and as long as it fixes the bigger problems right away I'm happy to see it fine tuned as we move forward. I would really like to see recon piloting as a real career path and not something people do with alts they pay hardly any attention to. I'd also like to see an enjoyable and challenging form of a game play emerge for those who choose to hunt them. Hell, I would make cloaking something akin to jumping with fatigue, ship exceptions, etc. It's something you choose to do sparingly and there's consequences to it. That would be exciting.

This whole thread has predictably turned into a AFK cloaking debate, there really should've been a whole thread dedicated to just that proposed feature.

AFK cloaking is ridiculous but it's done because of an equally ridiculous situation: most people only PVE in sov when they are absolutely safe and any PVE player can disengage at any time with no penalty. Countering AFK cloaking is looking at the wrong aspect, the real issue is how to make people PVE when they're at risk. The AFK cloaker is only there to change absolute safety from the norm to the exception and people don't want to decloak him to have a fight, they want him decloaked in order to restore absolute safety.

The angle that you should look at is the ease of disengaging from PVE. It is completely ridiculous that you can warp out of almost any PVE situation. Give most NPC tackle frigates scrams, not just points, increase their speed and make them keep transversal up while approaching, increase the proportion of tackle frigates and give the majority of cruisers and shorter ranged battleships long points. I'm not sure what to do to keep miners in belts, but mining is so terrible that it needs to be completely reimagined from the ground up.

So, it occurs to me that there are like a dozen other feature ideas in the OP for this thread dealing with the OA and Gates. Beyond a general wish that gates not circumvent the current Jump Fatigue mechanics (which seems like an unlike eventuality since they're talking about having them replace Jump Bridges) this thread has touched on things other than cloaky detection in a fairly limited manner.

I think between this thread and the actual AFK cloaking thread CCP are both well aware of the arguments for and against, and definitely aware of the player-base's concerns over this issue.

• tampering with Star Map filters - How much tampering? Should this affect info returned by API calls as well? How much more info should be available to the holding alliance? Graphs of system metrics/data over time? (everyone in Eve loves graphs, right?)
• D-scan disruption - Maybe a range limitation, or the ability to call down a black-out over every ship on a grid area?
• ship intelligence disruption - Maybe limit the effectiveness of Probes in the system where the structure is deployed? Maybe add a new probing skill that mitigates this but doesn't remove it? Boosts for friendly probes in system?
• player tracking capabilities - Local replacement/tweaks? Something that pings out a mail to a list when someone enters a system, or would that be too much?
• movement, like warp speeds, agility and mass in the system they're deployed - Small buff or something closer to a C1 wormhole effect? Percentage or flat increase? Everyone or just allies? Debuffs as well as buffs or just one or the other? Maybe only one or the other at a time?
• affect jump capabilities - Just a replacement for Jump Bridges? Maybe let you hook a Titan up to one for a very long range Jump Portal but at the cost of an increased Jump Fatigue multiplier (in effect a one-way trip unless you hold the space on the other end convincingly afterwords)?
• allow vessels to travel to other solar system - How far? Does the other end need a player-made gate as well or can they spit you out at an NPC gate? Do these gates induce Jump Fatigue? Do they use fuel? Taxes and tolls?
• modify wormhole behaviors - Mass, mass limit, duration? All, some or none of those? Spawning frequency? Make them have a chance to spawn on-grid with the Gate? Tell you where one leads without poking your nose through it? How much of this stuff should be available in WH space?

So, lots of ideas and questions there to ask, ponder, debate, and hopefully help CCP develop these two structures into awesome stuff with a lot of potential. There are also other questions like how hard a gate should be to set up and what sort of fitting options they're going to have.

Thoughts?

Firstly I wanted to quote a post I made regarding AFK cloaking.



In relation to this thread I'd like to add that observation arrays could provide functions to enhance the above list by use of modules/scripts and also feel these structures should be manipulated by both counter deployable's, hacking, jamming, damps and of course plain good old DPS. Idea's I liked in CCP Yitters list were:

D-scan disruption - Maybe a range limitation

ship intelligence disruption - Maybe limit the effectiveness of Probes in the system where the structure is deployed?

Maybe add a new probing skill that mitigates this but doesn't remove it? Boosts for friendly probes in system?

player tracking capabilities - Local replacement/tweaks?

Not sure about gates myself, being able to add defences would be great for player empire building but providing benefits within system is a bit strong, especially when people already complain so much about off grid boosts although if the additions were system wide for everyone, easily recognizable and easily destroyable by small gangs I don't think it would be too bad. and could provide good conflict drivers. Idea's I liked regarding gates were:

Affect jump capabilities - Maybe let you hook a Titan up to one for a very long range Jump Portal but at the cost of an increased Jump Fatigue multiplier (and fuel) (in effect a one-way trip unless you hold the space on the other end convincingly afterwords)?

Allow vessels to travel to other solar system to player-made (Owning SOV holders only, no blue usage) Jump Fatigue ofc with Taxes and tolls for maintenance.

We speack about structure who can be disrupt by entices link (with 1 ship you know), and cost B and B isk. Your colloquy ship cost 50 M with all fit for bomber (ship of a lot of af cloacky.)

To speack more about structure i will just quote one on my message on other post to explain why cloaking must be nerved :

"Why remove not aft lacking, but clocking immunity from the game.

A) "Afk cloacking" :

-Make moral harassment : just illegal in my country in real life, if i want i can go in justice against CCP if they don't kick a perma clocker who i can proof he make this to make moral harassment (read forum easy to have proof).
-No counter mesure
-Get pvp without tae any risk for pvp player, you can be aft or not attack when you want. You are risk free. ( and active pve player is NEVER risk free for exemple).

B) Normal cloacking:

-More strategical battle if your bomber wing must move and don't just wait 2 H in a point for an enemy fleet coming. More dynamic battle you know ?

C) More content:

- Kill clocker who don't move provide content. Don't play in a system because one people can't be kill and can kill you is just... destroying content.


D)Local issue:

- Local or not : You can't be decloack so people can know you ar here and can't kill you. You are just free risk. Let's do end this remove perma clocking, let people kill you. Risk VS reward : You want good kill mail ? Ok take more risk , for the moment you are risk free.
- AFK cloacking is counter mesure to perfect intel/risk free for pve/other argument like this : In 0.0 the people who attack have all advantage ; you have free intel by a lot of website about mining in system, farming in system so you know where it's active before go in this system. You have free intel about number of target when you enter on the system by local (so local is not only help for people who far, but for rammer to). In fact the true counter of perfect intel of the local is ... you have intel without be in the system you to with farming/mining information.



Conclusion: Nerf cloacking will create more content in the game. Remove perma clocking, and you create more strategical battle, more interesting things,ect..."



So for structure, they are very interesting, open a lot of new strategy. I 'm very exited about this. But i have a lot of question like : Only PI to build ? Mineral ? Twice ? Can we have a range of cost ?

For bonus by structure : Yes a lot of interesting thing can improve stratgical aspect of the game and avoid : take a frigate go pewpew. You can have other player can make : build an empire, build a fortress and it help you in pvp. A good thing to integrate more the PVE/mining/indus in 0.0 environment.

I think it would be better for everyone if we avoided having to spam corp-level structures around a system for them to be effective. If increased cost is a requirement then it's better to simply require costly upgrades to the base structure to achieve the desired effect.

Hence why CCP is talking about networks around multiple systems. Obviously that doesn't work so well in a Wormhole but I don't think having dozens or hundreds of structures in one system works very well either. Just going by my own admittedly limited experience in wormholes (it's not like I've surveyed every occupied C5 or something of the sort) I'd say the average for a very occupied C5 isn't more than around 5-10 Large POSes. You're talking about something similar just in OAs and then we have the other new structures on top of that.

IMO it would be a more desirable mechanic to let attackers anchor a small number of Jammers or something to do with the Entosis Link mechanics interfering with the OA.

You wouldn't necessarily use the single array to pinpoint the cloaked ship, but it might let you probe down a cloaked ship with your probes, with the OA acting as an additional processor or whatever bit of lore makes sense. (and no, I'm not advocating for "OA goes up and you can probe cloakies now", that would be too good IMO)

Also the "price" can be paid in effort and preparation, rather than in some direct continuous cost. In this case the costs inherent in an Alliance or Corporation, the social relationships that give you backup to call if things go bad, and the material and financial costs to put up and maintain these structures are all costs incurred by the players using them.

Basically my point here is that I don't think the added headache of maintaining more structures for the players, along with the added server load and other issues justifies what is basically a lore-based change.

This is exactly the point I am getting at, OAs allow for a true counter to someone cloaking in system all day where there was none before, but care should be taken so that it doesn't totally gimp short-term cloaking.

The concern that I want to be addressed is "At what point is someone able to know that there is a cloaked ship in system"

I have no problem with being able to find someone cloaked after a period of time, it is something that is needed and the "afk cloaking thread" is plenty proof of that. It would just be nice to have some numbers on: you have this much time till they know you are there, and this much time till they can find you.

But yes, I was being over-zealous for the requirements of OA and their functions, I just really hope its not just an denial system for any kind of cloaking.