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[Discussion] Entosis Link Tactics and Ship Balance Part 2

First post First post First post
Author
Agent Unknown
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#101 - 2015-04-02 13:59:45 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:


There's nothing stopping attackers from running multiple Entosis Links on a structure, or using remote ECCM to make them nearly impossible to jam. Plus the defender has to actually control the grid enough to tick the timer back down or the defense never ends.


No remote assistance is allowed, so that includes remote ECCM. The ship using the link would have to stack ECCM on its own (thus gimping its fit).
Wanda Fayne
#102 - 2015-04-02 14:29:10 UTC
+1 to the changes.

cue up Marauder training...nice to see BS useage back in the mixSmile

"your comments just confirms this whole idea is totally pathetic" -Lan Wang-

  • - "hub humping station gamey neutral logi warspam wankery" -Ralph King-Griffin-
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#103 - 2015-04-02 14:41:00 UTC
Wanda Fayne wrote:
+1 to the changes.

cue up Marauder training...nice to see BS useage back in the mixSmile


Battleships... albeit Tech 2 with carrier price tag and 1/10 the insurance payout.

/Not sure yet.
Tikktokk Tokkzikk
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#104 - 2015-04-02 14:49:31 UTC
What is the volume of Entosis LInks? Will I be able to bring a depot and entosis link on my roaming ship to disable upgrades and such?

Also why the mass penalty? If I understand correctly, a Maulus can counter an infinite amount of trollceptors by breaking their lock once, forcing them to do a warmup. I'm already sacrificing a highslot and would rather not gimp my fit further with a mass penalty.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#105 - 2015-04-02 15:04:26 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Galphii wrote:
A greatly improved system Foz, though 1 stront per cycle isn't going to be enough. I'd suggest 2 for the T1 and 5 for the T2. The mass increase is on the light side too, consider increasing that a little more. Otherwise, its looking good.



Remember that the T2 version cycles significantly faster than the T1 version. And that it's time dependant, rather than number of cycle dependant.

So 10 minutes (minimum capture time, after the initial warm up) would be (with your suggestion) 4 Stront for the T1 version, and 25 for the T2.


Ah, the shorter cycle time isn't necessarily a good thing since it will end up costing more than 6x the fuel. That's some really interesting interaction.

I'm pretty please with what has been laid out here. And depite not being limited to CBCs, people may still use them because cheap, tanky, and utility high slot.

Or they will just use Ishtars.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Wanda Fayne
#106 - 2015-04-02 15:05:18 UTC
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Wanda Fayne wrote:
+1 to the changes.

cue up Marauder training...nice to see BS useage back in the mixSmile


Battleships... albeit Tech 2 with carrier price tag and 1/10 the insurance payout.

/Not sure yet.


A quick theorycraft reveals that the t2 entosis link can be fitted to AF's (did the Ishkur) with a gimpy fitting and Lvl5 skills.

[Ishkur, test]

3x Sensor Booster II (Targeting Range Script)

3x Reactor Control Unit II

2x Small Ancillary Current Router II

(1x t2 Entosis Link)

55x Strontium Clathrates

targeting range = 194km

"your comments just confirms this whole idea is totally pathetic" -Lan Wang-

  • - "hub humping station gamey neutral logi warspam wankery" -Ralph King-Griffin-
Cade Windstalker
#107 - 2015-04-02 15:08:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Cade Windstalker
Berluth Luthian wrote:
The question I don't know if I've seen answered is whether a warm up cycle cancels enemy entosis progress?


Good point, I'd love to see this answered as well.

Agent Unknown wrote:
No remote assistance is allowed, so that includes remote ECCM. The ship using the link would have to stack ECCM on its own (thus gimping its fit).


Woops, point, my mistake there. My point about a Triage Carrier stands though.

Tikktokk Tokkzikk wrote:
Also why the mass penalty? If I understand correctly, a Maulus can counter an infinite amount of trollceptors by breaking their lock once, forcing them to do a warmup. I'm already sacrificing a highslot and would rather not gimp my fit further with a mass penalty.


There were significant concerns that Interceptors and other fast ships would be able to troll Sov without significant consequences, just running around and spamming an Alliance with defense call mails and generally making a nuisance of themselves. It would be easy to stop them from actually capturing anything but without the ability to actually kill them you need to baby-sit your sov structures for four hours during peak play times every day, and no one wants that.

Wanda Fayne wrote:
A quick theorycraft reveals that the t2 entosis link can be fitted to AF's (did the Ishkur) with a gimpy fitting and Lvl5 skills.

[Ishkur, test]

3x Sensor Booster II (Targeting Range Script)

3x Reactor Control Unit II

2x Small Ancillary Current Router II

(1x t2 Entosis Link)

55x Strontium Clathrates

targeting range = 194km




I don't really see this as a problem. This isn't a ship it's a flying Entosis Link, which means it will be ridiculously easy to hunt down and kill.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#108 - 2015-04-02 15:13:06 UTC
Wanda Fayne wrote:
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Wanda Fayne wrote:
+1 to the changes.

cue up Marauder training...nice to see BS useage back in the mixSmile


Battleships... albeit Tech 2 with carrier price tag and 1/10 the insurance payout.

/Not sure yet.


A quick theorycraft reveals that the t2 entosis link can be fitted to AF's (did the Ishkur) with a gimpy fitting and Lvl5 skills.

[Ishkur, test]

3x Sensor Booster II (Targeting Range Script)

3x Reactor Control Unit II

2x Small Ancillary Current Router II

(1x t2 Entosis Link)

55x Strontium Clathrates

targeting range = 194km



The only reason to do that is to use the link at long range. Damps will still likely break his lock, screwing him over for the entirety of his currently remaining cycle and another one on top of that.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Wanda Fayne
#109 - 2015-04-02 15:15:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Wanda Fayne
Soldarius wrote:
Wanda Fayne wrote:

A quick theorycraft reveals that the t2 entosis link can be fitted to AF's (did the Ishkur) with a gimpy fitting and Lvl5 skills.

[Ishkur, test]

3x Sensor Booster II (Targeting Range Script)

3x Reactor Control Unit II

2x Small Ancillary Current Router II

(1x t2 Entosis Link)

55x Strontium Clathrates

targeting range = 194km



The only reason to do that is to use the link at long range. Damps will still likely break his lock, screwing him over for the entirety of his currently remaining cycle and another one on top of that.


True. It's just crafting to see what the minimum ship hull could be used for t2. Interceptors are out, however.

"your comments just confirms this whole idea is totally pathetic" -Lan Wang-

  • - "hub humping station gamey neutral logi warspam wankery" -Ralph King-Griffin-
Elenahina
No.Mercy
Triumvirate.
#110 - 2015-04-02 15:25:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Elenahina
Wanda Fayne wrote:
Soldarius wrote:
Wanda Fayne wrote:

A quick theorycraft reveals that the t2 entosis link can be fitted to AF's (did the Ishkur) with a gimpy fitting and Lvl5 skills.

[Ishkur, test]

3x Sensor Booster II (Targeting Range Script)

3x Reactor Control Unit II

2x Small Ancillary Current Router II

(1x t2 Entosis Link)

55x Strontium Clathrates

targeting range = 194km



The only reason to do that is to use the link at long range. Damps will still likely break his lock, screwing him over for the entirety of his currently remaining cycle and another one on top of that.


True. It's just crafting to see what the minimum ship hull could be used for t2. Interceptors are out, however.


Actually, they're not, but the fit is so gimped it's useless.

I did theory craft a T2 link onto a cap stable Ares. But you only get 40k of lock range, which sort of defeats the purpose.

[Ares, Trollin Ur Sov]
Navy Micro Auxiliary Power Core
Navy Micro Auxiliary Power Core
Navy Micro Auxiliary Power Core
Navy Micro Auxiliary Power Core

Small Peroxide Capacitor Power Cell
Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I
Small Peroxide Capacitor Power Cell

T2 Entosis Link
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Small Ancillary Current Router II
Small Ancillary Current Router II

At max skills with no implants, you have 542 (enough to fire the link) cap to spare, 16 CPU and 6 Power grid left.
Oh and a 6.5 second align. And it's only stable with the link, or the prop mod, not both.

Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno

Sven Viko VIkolander
Tang Ping
#111 - 2015-04-02 15:27:10 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:


[/list]
Now on to the new details. A few players have brought up the idea of putting a fuel use on the Entosis link in our feedback threads, and we discussed the idea further with players at Fanfest. We like the way that fuel use encouraged logistics and supported attacks, and discourages leaving alts logged off behind enemy lines. It also helps break long stalemates in the worst case scenario of neither side being able or willing to engage each other.
We're also adding a small flat mass increase that will apply whenever the Entosis link is online (not just when it's active). This will work much like smaller armor plates, where it has a more noticeable effect on smaller ships than on larger ships.
Finally, we have the fitting and capacitor costs of the module. Like most other modules, T2 will use more cap and require more fitting than T1.

T1 Entosis Link:

  • Requires Infomorph Psychology 1
  • +250,000 mass when online
  • 5 Minute Cycle Time, 25km range
  • 10 PWG, 1 CPU
  • 50 Capacitor per cycle (0.1666 cap/s)
  • Consumes 1 Stront per cycle


  • T2 Entosis Link:
  • Requires Infomorph Psychology 4
  • +1,000,000 mass when online
  • 2 Minute Cycle Time, 250km range
  • 100 PWG, 10 CPU
  • 500 Capacitor per cycle (4.166 cap/s)
  • Consumes 1 Stront per cycle


As always, nothing is set in stone and we plan to continue discussing this new module and its impacts with you all over the next few months. This thread will be the new focus for discussion of the Entosis Link and its balance, and I hope that you will all let us know what you think of this version of the proposal and its implications. Thanks!


Fozzie, the first thing to remember is that using the entosis link itself is *not* a fun mechanic, even if it might result in fun things (e.g. fights). Having penalties which make it even less fun to be the entosis link pilot (or alt) are a bad foundation to a new sov mechanics. So, I think the Stront requirement by itself is enough to discourage troll entosis use (e.g. entosis pilots logged off until the system is empty or entosis interceptors) and the mass penalty should NOT be used. This point has been made a thousand times by people who do lots of PVP in null: if you cannot counter entosis interceptors ESPECIALLY now that they won't be able to viably fit a T2 link and now that they will need stront in the cargo then you are probably NOT competent enough to hold and defend your sov in null sec.

Second, also for the reasons noted above, the PG/CPU requirements for the t1 entosis link should be changed. 10 PG does NOT fit on any viable frigate or destroyer setup currently in use, which completely contradicts the stated goal of the entosis link to the effect that: "The Entosis Link itself should have the minimum possible effect on what ships and tactics players can choose." A t1 entosis link not fitting on virtually any current frig/destroyer PVP setup (because no real setup has 10 free powergrid) does not fit this goal, and significantly harms small gang sov warfare where every ship in fleet needs to be a viable pvp ship, where the players cannot simply bring 10 dummy entosis alts. I suggest changing the tech 1 entosis link requirements to 1 or 2 PG and 10-15 cpu so that it actually fits on useful frig/dessy setups.
Vulfen
Project Valhalla.
#112 - 2015-04-02 15:35:58 UTC
I think the entosis link needs to buff the sig radius of the ship using it slightly

This will prevent people using hard to scan T3s to claim the site by sitting at long range so people need to scan you down to get ontop of you.

I think any combat recon ship using the module should show up on DSCAN

Also how will the grid work for the large fights on these places because to people on oposite sides of the entosis link at 250km could possibly be on 2 separate grids if there is a fight going on around it that has adjusted the grid?
Narku Bourgeoisie Tonisilitis
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#113 - 2015-04-02 15:37:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Narku Bourgeoisie Tonisilitis
The T2 version still shouldn't have a range ten times higher than the T1 version; either buff the T1 or nerf the T2 range, imo. Since frigates, and only frigates, will be fitting the T1 version with these huge differences, this is almost an artificial ship-choice nerf like CCP said they'd try to avoid. Put another way, a long-range Harpy fleet simply won't be viable with this, despite otherwise possibly having grid control.

I'm not sure how I feel on the 10-minute initial cycle for caps. It mainly means they'll be slower initially, but once they're on field, they're still extremely powerful, and won't discourage capital-exclusive blobs. If CCP also makes them change the timer (10-20%) slower, they'll make it viable to use subcaps alongside caps.
Deacon Abox
Black Eagle5
#114 - 2015-04-02 15:42:26 UTC
Milla Goodpussy wrote:
go to riot!

or we riot!


Aw look. You got no likes for your pithy post. Seems like most people approve of the changes. So,

No U!Ugh

CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting off button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.

rsantos
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#115 - 2015-04-02 15:42:51 UTC
The dirty bloblers have won! Hope you all have fun with the new sov laser cyno fitted to your carriers in 10% TiDi!

Wanda Fayne
#116 - 2015-04-02 15:47:49 UTC
Elenahina wrote:
Wanda Fayne wrote:

True. It's just crafting to see what the minimum ship hull could be used for t2. Interceptors are out, however.


Actually, they're not, but the fit is so gimped it's useless.

I did theory craft a T2 link onto a cap stable Ares. But you only get 40k of lock range, which sort of defeats the purpose.

[Ares, Trollin Ur Sov]
Navy Micro Auxiliary Power Core
Navy Micro Auxiliary Power Core
Navy Micro Auxiliary Power Core
Navy Micro Auxiliary Power Core

Small Peroxide Capacitor Power Cell
Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I
Small Peroxide Capacitor Power Cell

T2 Entosis Link
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Small Ancillary Current Router II
Small Ancillary Current Router II

At max skills with no implants, you have 542 (enough to fire the link) cap to spare, 16 CPU and 6 Power grid left.
Oh and a 6.5 second align. And it's only stable with the link, or the prop mod, not both.


GotchaCool

The Tactical Destroyers look to be the smallest hull that isn't gimped into uselessness with the t2 Entosis link. They have the targeting range and speed modes to be useful. Still going to give up that firepower though to make it work. I hope all D3's are released in time for these changes to be worked out.

"your comments just confirms this whole idea is totally pathetic" -Lan Wang-

  • - "hub humping station gamey neutral logi warspam wankery" -Ralph King-Griffin-
SilentAsTheGrave
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#117 - 2015-04-02 15:53:16 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Consumes 1 Stront per cycle


This is why I love CCP. ♥
Wanda Fayne
#118 - 2015-04-02 15:58:50 UTC
SilentAsTheGrave wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Consumes 1 Stront per cycle


This is why I love CCP. ♥


That was your suggestion in the last thread. Well doneBig smile

"your comments just confirms this whole idea is totally pathetic" -Lan Wang-

  • - "hub humping station gamey neutral logi warspam wankery" -Ralph King-Griffin-
SilentAsTheGrave
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#119 - 2015-04-02 16:10:09 UTC
Wanda Fayne wrote:
SilentAsTheGrave wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Consumes 1 Stront per cycle


This is why I love CCP. ♥


That was your suggestion in the last thread. Well doneBig smile

Thanks!

There have been some who have been saying this new Entosis Link will be a boost for bumping Machariels in high sec. The way I understand it, you need a valid target for the Entosis Link to activate to get the mass increase. There will not be any of these capture points in high sec so it is a moot point, correct?
Ned Thomas
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#120 - 2015-04-02 16:15:35 UTC
Wanda Fayne wrote:


The Tactical Destroyers look to be the smallest hull that isn't gimped into uselessness with the t2 Entosis link. They have the targeting range and speed modes to be useful. Still going to give up that firepower though to make it work. I hope all D3's are released in time for these changes to be worked out.



With the power grid nerfs for the Svipul and Confessor, and assuming that the Jackdaw and Hecate will have similar PG stats, then they'll need to be quite gimped to fit a T2 E-link.