These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Discussion] Entosis Link Tactics and Ship Balance Part 2

First post First post First post
Author
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#81 - 2015-04-02 11:12:10 UTC
Aran Hotchkiss wrote:
afkalt wrote:
I'd prefer the mass to only apply when active - else we'll start seeing weird things like bumping ships with highs full of entosis mods for the extra mass

(Additionally the second point nullifies stacking entosis links to go bump-omaniac)



Sorry, I dont follow?
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#82 - 2015-04-02 11:31:45 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Aran Hotchkiss wrote:
afkalt wrote:
I'd prefer the mass to only apply when active - else we'll start seeing weird things like bumping ships with highs full of entosis mods for the extra mass

(Additionally the second point nullifies stacking entosis links to go bump-omaniac)



Sorry, I dont follow?



One entosis link per ship. It's the second point of the restrictions.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#83 - 2015-04-02 11:34:07 UTC
Galphii wrote:
A greatly improved system Foz, though 1 stront per cycle isn't going to be enough. I'd suggest 2 for the T1 and 5 for the T2. The mass increase is on the light side too, consider increasing that a little more. Otherwise, its looking good.



Remember that the T2 version cycles significantly faster than the T1 version. And that it's time dependant, rather than number of cycle dependant.

So 10 minutes (minimum capture time, after the initial warm up) would be (with your suggestion) 4 Stront for the T1 version, and 25 for the T2.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#84 - 2015-04-02 11:34:29 UTC
That's a pretty nice set of changes, and neatly deals with a lot of the issues raised in the previous two threads.

The mass increase in particular was very slick in terms of limiting max speed of long range / kiting doctrines while not arbitrarily making them utterly infeasible. Keeping T1 links viable on Interceptors is a good choice, though I feel that limiting them to 30km range might be too much. 50km for the T1 links would open a lot more options for small ship doctrines, as controlling a 30km sphere is child's play in brawling frigates even against kiting frigate comps. 50-60km forces brawling frigate comps to make different choices to ensure they've got enough of an engagement envelope to counter kiting comps.

Stats on the T2 / Large (+1 on the idea to rename them) seem good, the cap use / grid of the T2/ Large should force folks who want to use them on small ships to make significant sacrifices to do so, which is good.

I don't see the point of using Stront to fuel these, especially at these low levels. Resupply is trivial for anyone with half a brain, even small ships can run these for hours. As other posters have said, it adds no interesting gameplay. It seems like the stat chlarifications - particularly for the T2/Large Entosis Link - force enough fitting sacrifice that a fuel requirement isn't really needed. Either make the fuel use high enough to impose a significant logistic burden - which gives the advantage to larger / more organized groups - or remove it entirely IMO.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."

Arkon Olacar
black.listed
#85 - 2015-04-02 11:39:24 UTC
Question: if you lose a lock on the structure in question but the module remains active, ie through damps or jams, is the capture progress paused at the moment lock is dropped, or at the end of the cycle?

One way around the concerns about jamming would be to allow the cycle to finish contributing to the capture progress despite losing lock, unless the ship is destroyed. The jammed ship would then need to retarget the structure and then have another 'warmup' cycle before it can begin to make an impact again, but at least the entire 2/5 minute cycle would contribute to the capture progress. Destroying the ship should always pause progress immediatly.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#86 - 2015-04-02 11:46:18 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Aran Hotchkiss wrote:
afkalt wrote:
I'd prefer the mass to only apply when active - else we'll start seeing weird things like bumping ships with highs full of entosis mods for the extra mass

(Additionally the second point nullifies stacking entosis links to go bump-omaniac)



Sorry, I dont follow?



One entosis link per ship. It's the second point of the restrictions.


I missed that.

Head>desk.
xttz
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#87 - 2015-04-02 11:50:23 UTC
Has it been explained how exactly pausing will work?

For example, if a structure was 50% contested when all attacking ships are jammed / destroyed, but no defensive Entosis link as applied to it, how long will it remain at 50%? Indefinitely? Until the end of the prime time window?
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#88 - 2015-04-02 11:53:04 UTC
xttz wrote:
Has it been explained how exactly pausing will work?

For example, if a structure was 50% contested when all attacking ships are jammed / destroyed, but no defensive Entosis link as applied to it, how long will it remain at 50%? Indefinitely? Until the end of the prime time window?


From the last thread and if my memory serves, it will remain at this value (i.e. vulnerable) until flipped or fully controlled and this vulnerability will continue PAST the window.
chelly Dian
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#89 - 2015-04-02 11:53:34 UTC
Not bad changes - moving to better.

Woudl like to see it on SiSi to make final decision.
xttz
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#90 - 2015-04-02 12:49:48 UTC
What about size and tech differences? There's enough new stats to add some extra trade-offs.

Small Entosis Link I:

  • Requires Infomorph Psychology 1
  • +250,000 mass when online
  • 5 Minute Cycle Time, 25km range
  • 10 PWG, 1 CPU
  • 50 Capacitor per cycle
  • Consumes 10 Stront per cycle
  • Cost ~20m

  • Small Entosis Link II:
  • Requires Infomorph Psychology 4
  • +225,000 mass when online
  • 5 Minute Cycle Time, 35km range
  • 12 PWG, 1 CPU
  • 45 Capacitor per cycle
  • Consumes 8 Stront per cycle
  • Cost ~50m


Standard Entosis Link I:

  • Requires Infomorph Psychology 2
  • +1,000,000 mass when online
  • 2 Minute Cycle Time, 200km range
  • 100 PWG, 10 CPU
  • 500 Capacitor per cycle
  • Consumes 4 Stront per cycle
  • Cost ~80m

  • Standard Entosis Link II:
  • Requires Infomorph Psychology 4
  • +900,000 mass when online
  • 2 Minute Cycle Time, 250km range
  • 120 PWG, 10 CPU
  • 450 Capacitor per cycle
  • Consumes 3 Stront per cycle
  • Cost ~120m
Oh Takashawa
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#91 - 2015-04-02 12:55:19 UTC
So the stront here is another thing we'll have to have in cargo of ships, which will prevent ships from being stored in SMAs until it's removed. Can we finally get CCP to look at lifting the restriictions on Ozone (and now Stront) in cargo, as a quality of life measure?
Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#92 - 2015-04-02 13:00:00 UTC
Rowells wrote:
IB4 100pwg 10km/s 250km lock range trollceptor plans


INB4 100pwg 10km/s 250km lock range interceptor with enough cap to run the module is impossible. The mass addition alone was the perfect solution.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#93 - 2015-04-02 13:03:45 UTC
So ... still replacing the satisfaction of shooting the enemies' stuff with waving a magic wand at it?

Still think the psychology of Null Sec players is going to mesh well with Factional Warfare type mechanics?

Roll

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Cade Windstalker
#94 - 2015-04-02 13:14:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Cade Windstalker
PinkKnife wrote:
So then, its kitsune sov?

Seriously though whats to stop people from just coming out and using blackbirds or keres or kitsunes and perma-ruining your attempts to take something. Sure you can blap them, but brave has enough disposible ewar frigs to perma defend any fleet despite not holding the grid.

I'd suggest making the ship get 100X the sensor strength or lock range as well. At least then you have a chance to hold the link on against ewar.

The fight should be over control of the grid, not who can jam out the other more.


There's nothing stopping attackers from running multiple Entosis Links on a structure, or using remote ECCM to make them nearly impossible to jam. Plus the defender has to actually control the grid enough to tick the timer back down or the defense never ends.

Also you could always use a Triaged Carrier with their EWar immunity to completely bypass cheap ECM spam entirely. Of course then you also can't just use a Triaged Carrier and nothing else because the defenders can then just park a single Drake with a link on the structure and completely halt your Cap progress.

Aiyshimin wrote:


  • Are the Command Nodes in deadspace? (like Large FW complexes)
  • Is the exact victory condition for the event just "whoever first completes 10 nodes"?
  • Can NPC corp members use Entosis Links on structures?
  • Does the Entosis Link cycle continue without target lock?
  • Do the nodes have a visible timer for everyone on grid?


and a few more:


  • Do the nodes allow anchoring deployables in their vicinity?
  • Will the nodes have a decloaking sphere around them?
[/quote]


  • What do you mean by Deadspace? They're not gated, if that's what you're asking.
  • It's not first to 10 nodes it's 10 net node points. Meaning if you can get 10 more than your opponent you win, but if you get 10 and your opponent got 5 you still need 5 more.
  • Yes, but they count as an attacker and they can't actually take Sov, and IIRC from the previous thread they can't use them on nodes for the actual capture event.
  • Yes, but no progress is made.
  • Hasn't been specified yet
  • I would assume so.
  • I would assume not, since the Entosis Link cycle prevents cloaking, so there's no need to stop someone from being cloaked next to the node since they can't impact anything while cloaked.


Humang wrote:
Dr Farallon wrote:
And 1 strontium is way too low. Maybe 10 or 25 per cycle. If you're gonna do 1 you might as well do none at all.


I agree with this, in that it should be removed altogether, It seems like a requirement that would be more if an annoyance than a limiting factor, and for a system that already has a fair amount of drawbacks.

I'll probably regret suggesting this, but how about using a fatigue mechanic instead:
after X number of cycles you need to wait Y amount of time before you can reactivate it.


I don't think it's mean to be a major requirement here. Keep in mind this is something that's meant to go on for at least an hour in a well defended system, and every ship starting a link needs one cycle of warmup. For a completely uncontested Node event with full occupancy metrics that's a minimum of 210 Strong using a 'T2' Link.

Also since the event is going to go on for a long time ships are likely to need a lot of ammo in addition to whatever stront they use to capture. If the fuel requirement is pushed too high it goes from being a minor consideration in a long fight to a major hassle to deal with, and makes Amarr ships (with their lack of ammo requirements) the default capture boats since they'd be the only ones able to hold enough Strontium to run a full capture.

Xindi Kraid wrote:
So how much are structures going to be able to control their own grid?

While we don't want to end up back where we were having to grind structure HP, there's also something to be said for not just allowing drive by linking in the time when everyone using the structure is away.

Also how long do you expect capture to take, and what will modify that time, if anything?


Structures should actually require a somewhat committed force, not just a few people reinforcing the structure in 15 minutes for the lolz.


Read the original blog post, most of this is answered there. The only thing that isn't is the structure related stuff, because that falls under the Structure revamp.
Pooptasticize
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#95 - 2015-04-02 13:16:14 UTC
One thing that the stront requirement will add is now you can't have a cheap afk brick tanked drone-boat defending a structure all day.
Cade Windstalker
#96 - 2015-04-02 13:21:06 UTC
Emmy Mnemonic wrote:
Concerning capitals and entosis-links:

A carrier with entosis link will take x5 as long time to capture a sov structure, but what will happen if a defender shows up with a frig and an entosis link - will it be counterd/stopped by one defending frig with an entosis link? Or will the frig have "more power" over the capital? I.e will it take 5 capitals with entosis links to balance one subcap with entosis link?

Other questionmarks:

If an attacker entosises for say 5 out of the necessary 10 minutes, and is then destroyed, does the defender have to "de-entosis" the structure back for the equal time before it is saved fully? And if the attacker sends in another ship to entosis, will it have only 5 minutes left until the command nodes are spawned, or how will this work?


Capitals don't take 5 times as long, they just cycle for five times as long. It's not number of cycles it's time spent cycling. So a Carrier with a t2 will have a 10 minute warm-up cycle and then takes the same amount of actual time to perform a capture as any other ship, it just does it in 'fewer cycles' but as a result is also vulnerable for longer.

The defender doesn't need to run their links as long as the attacker. Check the blog post for timer mechanics.
Edward Olmops
Gunboat Commando
#97 - 2015-04-02 13:21:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Edward Olmops
CCP Fozzie wrote:


T1 Entosis Link:

  • Requires Infomorph Psychology 1
  • +250,000 mass when online
  • 5 Minute Cycle Time, 25km range
  • 10 PWG, 1 CPU
  • 50 Capacitor per cycle (0.1666 cap/s)
  • Consumes 1 Stront per cycle


  • T2 Entosis Link:
  • Requires Infomorph Psychology 4
  • +1,000,000 mass when online
  • 2 Minute Cycle Time, 250km range
  • 100 PWG, 10 CPU
  • 500 Capacitor per cycle (4.166 cap/s)
  • Consumes 1 Stront per cycle




The stats for the T1 and T2 Version are completely different.
Why don't you make two different T1 versions (like "Entosis Link" vs "Long Range Entosis Link" or "Focussed Entosis Link") ?
This would be way more fitting to the pattern all other modules show.

What you present here as a T2 Version is not a slightly more advanced Version of the T1 module, but something completely different. It's meant partially for different hulls (PG requirement & mass) and different tactics (range & cycle time).

This would be the same as if Railguns somehow were the T2 version of Blasters...

Just saying as I don't get the reasoning behind it.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#98 - 2015-04-02 13:51:29 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
So ... still replacing the satisfaction of shooting the enemies' stuff with waving a magic wand at it?

Still think the psychology of Null Sec players is going to mesh well with Factional Warfare type mechanics?

Roll

Nah it's sorta ok you're not grinding through EHP but EntosisHitPoints

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Berluth Luthian
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#99 - 2015-04-02 13:57:45 UTC
A carrier in triage with EWAR immunity is a link that won't be broken unless capped out or killed. You can then target the enemy and damp/jam through their whole fleet while your triage link remains.

The question I don't know if I've seen answered is whether a warm up cycle cancels enemy entosis progress?
Azure and Argent
Enlightened Industries
Goonswarm Federation
#100 - 2015-04-02 13:59:43 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
The powergrid requirements for the T2 version are indeed difficult for frigates and destroyers. The T1 version is a much more viable option for frigates, but yes this mean we would expect ships of cruiser size or higher to have a lot of importance in contested sov warfare.



I'm glad to see you've decided to ignore whatever idiot came up with this line.

Quote:
This also means that we don't want to be using the Entosis Links to intentionally manipulate ship use. We've seen some people suggesting that we restrict Entosis Links to battleships, command ships or capital ships in order to buff those classes. Using the Entosis Link mechanics to artificially skew the meta in that way is not something we are interested in doing.