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Intaki Liberation
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Nomistrav
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#141 - 2015-03-28 17:34:17 UTC
Kel hound wrote:
Rinai Vero wrote:
This was never a discussion. It was a "declaration." It also never devolved. It was a fracking political ploy from the first post.



And that is all the Intaki are ever treated as. A pawn, a political piece of a chess board to be moved around or captured for one side or another. It is a disgrace, an insult.


That may be true, but I have my doubts. No-one ever brought up The Syndicate or Mordu's Legion as a political piece to win an argument and both entities swell with Intaki. I believe that the compounding, almost repetitious debates stim from the fact that the arguments aren't very good for either side... The Intaki are no more a political pawn than a metaphorical grasping of straws. Rather than ignoring the ill found attempts to utilize that, regardless of how poor the argument may be, both sides seem to be drawn into it and justify their reasonings, desperately attempting to speak louder than smarter in an effort to be heard while not listening themselves.

Nothing changes. The Intaki are more than patient and even moreso tolerable to wait for the solution to arise or simply move on. Such is our nature.

"As long as space endures,

as long as sentient beings exist,

until then, may I too remain

and dispel the miseries of the world."

~ Vremaja Idama
Dailar Toralen
Toralen Industries
#142 - 2015-03-29 02:30:55 UTC
It's things like this that make me want to retire and become a historian.

Ok. Here is a proposition for supporters of the Intaki. I propose a meeting between the Leaders and Diplomats of the GMVA, ILF, and 4th District to come to some sort of deal. This meeting will most likely need to take place in Syndicate Space or otherwise. Security Fleets are allowed. If anyone would like to offer up services as a 3rd Party Security Force (to keep everyone in check) please do. Also, any agents of the Scope are welcome to record the meeting. I will also be present, most likely in a Council Diplomatic Shuttle. Dates and locations can be figured out.

Until then, all Intaki supporters are encouraged to provide Security Services in the Intaki System, or to support the Intaki Goverment by increasing its prominence as a Trade Hub.

We are Toralen Industries. It doesn't matter if you fight for money, idealogies, or because it's what you are good at and it doesn't matter if you fight threw trade, combat, or diplomacy. No matter what or how you fight, there's a place for you.
Zenariae
#143 - 2015-03-29 05:50:47 UTC
Perhaps it is fortunate though that there are some ideas thrown about in this thread that demonstrate how dangerous it can be to invest in a patriotic identity. Patriotism damages discussion and makes it harder to see clearly beyond exclusionary simplifications of our cultures. Future generations could benefit from this understanding during their education, ultimately for the improvement of all.
Vechtor
Doomheim
#144 - 2015-03-29 20:05:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Vechtor
Zenariae wrote:
Perhaps it is fortunate though that there are some ideas thrown about in this thread that demonstrate how dangerous it can be to invest in a patriotic identity. Patriotism damages discussion and makes it harder to see clearly beyond exclusionary simplifications of our cultures. Future generations could benefit from this understanding during their education, ultimately for the improvement of all.


What patriotism? What every Intaki know with regard to patriotism is that an Intaki is an Intaki. Whatever this means to an Intaki is still very far from a consensus even after YEARS of attempts by Intaki Pure, Intaki Liberation Front, and many others.
Perhaps capsuleers are unable to fully understand what this means, even the ones working for Intaki on a daily basis. Last thing I would want for me if I happened to be an Intaki living in Intaki Prime, like my family was, would be to be rulled out by capsuleers. Specially a Deteis fighting FOR the Amarr Empire.
There is a proxy for that: notice that every discussion with regard to Intaki ends up - and I don't know why - in a Caldari Prime discussion.
Zenariae
#145 - 2015-03-29 22:03:39 UTC
Precisely what I mean. Culture doesn't reach a consensus. It's defined by every single aspect and person, the praiseworthy, the fallen, the individual, the family, and everyone else in between. It's a dynamic and a sum, not a selective appeal to loyalties.
Nomistrav
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#146 - 2015-03-29 23:38:28 UTC
Zenariae wrote:
Precisely what I mean. Culture doesn't reach a consensus. It's defined by every single aspect and person, the praiseworthy, the fallen, the individual, the family, and everyone else in between. It's a dynamic and a sum, not a selective appeal to loyalties.


Then we may never reach a conclusion - something I am completely fine with, by the way. The reason being is that the Intaki are free-flowing, like water, ever shifting and always on the move. Intaki do not agree with Intaki views and the only real consensus we all seem to have is the majority belief in Ida and the prestige brought among us by Idama.

Perhaps it is simply best that we remain nomadic, dispersed, and ever contrary in our views for it is the true meaning of liberty and freedom to do so. In a way, we are more tolerant and negotiable than some Gallente because of that uniqueness of individuality above all else.

Syndicate, Secessionist, State loyalist, Federation loyalist, Legion mercenary, Empyrean comptroller.... The list is ever expanding for we, The Intaki. Perhaps that is the way it was always meant to be.

"As long as space endures,

as long as sentient beings exist,

until then, may I too remain

and dispel the miseries of the world."

~ Vremaja Idama
Rinai Vero
Blades of Liberty
#147 - 2015-03-30 02:19:14 UTC
In my view Patriotism is an idea like any other that can be manipulated by the insidious or made a farce by the adherence of the ignorant or idiotic. It can also be an inspiration, a beacon to rally a society towards its greatest achievements.

In the Federation some of us have a concept of Patriotism that holds dissent against the abuse of power as its highest form. It is not a unique tragedy that we have too often seen the opposite take hold among us. Much as we cast the barb of blind loyalty towards the Caldari, the Federation is not immune. Our darkest days prove that.

Inaki citizens of the Federation have often proven themselves to be patriots of the first sort, and opposed the worst of the latter. Their contribution to our united achievements in the Federated Union have been immense on every front. Cultural, Economic, Scientific, and even militarily. Throughout the Federation these people share with all other peoples of the Federation the benefit of those achievements, as they well deserve. Is that not patriotism?

To address the suggestion of some sort of conference:

It is the position of GMVA that a formal conference at this time would not be productive, and we will therefore not participate. As of now there has been absolutely no groundwork for any sort of multilateral goal or even shared principles from which to set a common goal. GMVA remains an interested party concerning the Intaki System, and I am willing to participate in private bilateral dialogue with any other entity in the region on my Alliance's behalf.
Noden Vorpalstar
The Knights of Polaris
#148 - 2015-03-30 03:46:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Noden Vorpalstar
Rinai Vero wrote:

To address the suggestion of some sort of conference:

It is the position of GMVA that a formal conference at this time would not be productive, and we will therefore not participate. As of now there has been absolutely no groundwork for any sort of multilateral goal or even shared principles from which to set a common goal. GMVA remains an interested party concerning the Intaki System, and I am willing to participate in private bilateral dialogue with any other entity in the region on my Alliance's behalf.


Pilot Vero, I applaud the stance the GMVA holds regarding this proposal. Any such diplomatic negotiations under the conditions proposed by Pilot Toralen would run counter to The Federation's interests, undermine the sovereignty of the system, and risk delegitimizing any FDU organizations participating in such arrangements.

Public Channel:  Polaris-Public Roleplaying Channel:  Gallente Lounge
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#149 - 2015-03-30 04:50:22 UTC
The trouble with Intaki is that liberated or not, nobody could tell the difference.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Vechtor
Doomheim
#150 - 2015-03-30 11:47:30 UTC
Zenariae wrote:
Precisely what I mean. Culture doesn't reach a consensus. It's defined by every single aspect and person, the praiseworthy, the fallen, the individual, the family, and everyone else in between. It's a dynamic and a sum, not a selective appeal to loyalties.

Nomistrav wrote:

Perhaps it is simply best that we remain nomadic, dispersed, and ever contrary in our views for it is the true meaning of liberty and freedom to do so. In a way, we are more tolerant and negotiable than some Gallente because of that uniqueness of individuality above all else.

Such perfect replies from you both, so aligned with what I believe. Intaki indeed has a level of freedom that may be one of the highest inside the Federation if you take into account the full spectre of what freedom means.

Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
The trouble with Intaki is that liberated or not, nobody could tell the difference.

It's not a trouble. Not at all... May be in fact our major strength.
Liam Antolliere
Doomheim
#151 - 2015-03-30 13:47:32 UTC
Dailar Toralen wrote:


Until then, all Intaki supporters are encouraged to provide Security Services in the Intaki System, or to support the Intaki Goverment by increasing its prominence as a Trade Hub.


Have you even asked the Intaki if this is what they want? You keep asserting that it would be the best thing for them but I've not seen any Intaki standing by your assertion.

Is it not ironic that you declare the need for their liberation yet presume to speak both on their behalf and in their best interests strictly from your viewpoint without even consulting them? We have a word for that: tyranny.

"Though the people may hate me, that does not relieve me of my charge."
Rinai Vero
Blades of Liberty
#152 - 2015-03-30 15:16:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Rinai Vero
Oh, I think we've heard fairly often from Intaki locals that security and economic opportunity should be improved. I'd say Toralen isn't out of bounds advocating those things in principle.

Where we tend to get tied up is in the specifics. For instance: my idea of "providing security services" includes chasing Squids away from Gallente military assets whenever I see them. I gather such activities are not universally approved. On the economic front, "increasing trade" can mean many things, not all of which are beneficial to the locals. Particularly if one is shipping in products produced elsewhere that undercut local manufacturers. If I'm not mistaken, IPI are still operating the only orbital production facilities in system.
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#153 - 2015-03-30 16:49:10 UTC
From where I sit, the Intaki seem to have their own **** together better then the rest of us. Let them be and tend your own house before trying to improve someone else's.

I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
Dailar Toralen
Toralen Industries
#154 - 2015-03-30 17:10:49 UTC
Liam Antolliere wrote:
Dailar Toralen wrote:


Until then, all Intaki supporters are encouraged to provide Security Services in the Intaki System, or to support the Intaki Goverment by increasing its prominence as a Trade Hub.


Have you even asked the Intaki if this is what they want? You keep asserting that it would be the best thing for them but I've not seen any Intaki standing by your assertion.

Is it not ironic that you declare the need for their liberation yet presume to speak both on their behalf and in their best interests strictly from your viewpoint without even consulting them? We have a word for that: tyranny.


Yes, I have asked. Why do you think we have the Intaki Liberation Front? Intaki Pure? The Intaki are already moving for there independence, I am simply trying to rally support for these efforts, which are being produced by Intaki.

And for the last time, I fight for the Amarrrians simply for there tech. I do not actively engage in combat against the Minmatar, yet simply set up camp near outposts that the Minmatar couldn't reach anyways. I do it for the ships and equipment, nothing else.

We are Toralen Industries. It doesn't matter if you fight for money, idealogies, or because it's what you are good at and it doesn't matter if you fight threw trade, combat, or diplomacy. No matter what or how you fight, there's a place for you.
Rinai Vero
Blades of Liberty
#155 - 2015-03-30 17:14:06 UTC
Perhaps you'd be so good as to tell us which Intaki organizations have been in contact with you seeking economic and security assistance?
Dailar Toralen
Toralen Industries
#156 - 2015-03-30 17:16:09 UTC
I have not been in contact, but this seems like a stupid question. One of the Intaki Liberation Force's main goals is to provide security for the system against pirates.

We are Toralen Industries. It doesn't matter if you fight for money, idealogies, or because it's what you are good at and it doesn't matter if you fight threw trade, combat, or diplomacy. No matter what or how you fight, there's a place for you.
Rinai Vero
Blades of Liberty
#157 - 2015-03-30 17:30:38 UTC
Oh, I'm just curious. Not commenting on the activities of any other parties.
Noden Vorpalstar
The Knights of Polaris
#158 - 2015-03-30 19:36:38 UTC
Dailar Toralen wrote:
One of the Intaki Liberation Force's main goals is to provide security for the system against pirates.


And do you not think that Intaki Prime being a Federation system would be a Federation security concern?

If the actual legislative body on Intaki Prime is interested in a higher security status for the system they should voice that concern with the Federal Senate. Upon reaching a security agreement for the system, The Federation Navy could perhaps station a small contingent consisting primarily of Intaki crewmembers, however ultimately answering to the Federal Chain of Command.

To allow for independent capsuleer organizations, to decide policy in a system they have no governing say over; be they Federal, State or Null-Sec aligned is a complete violation of legality.

Security for the Intaki system is ultimately something the legislative bodies will have to come to an agreement on.

Public Channel:  Polaris-Public Roleplaying Channel:  Gallente Lounge
Dailar Toralen
Toralen Industries
#159 - 2015-03-30 20:48:16 UTC
Look, I'm getting tired of arguing with those of you against Intaki Liberation. If your interested in supporting the Intaki and eventually liberating them, speak up. If not, we have enough of you protesting against the Intaki simply because you want to use them like your personal dog.

We are Toralen Industries. It doesn't matter if you fight for money, idealogies, or because it's what you are good at and it doesn't matter if you fight threw trade, combat, or diplomacy. No matter what or how you fight, there's a place for you.
Liam Antolliere
Doomheim
#160 - 2015-03-30 21:07:04 UTC
Dailar Toralen wrote:
Look, I'm getting tired of arguing with those of you against Intaki Liberation. If your interested in supporting the Intaki and eventually liberating them, speak up. If not, we have enough of you protesting against the Intaki simply because you want to use them like your personal dog.


Oh...are those my motivations? I was unaware, thank you for informing me.

Monsieur, between the two of us, you have presumed to speak for them and suggest what is best for them more times in this one thread than I have in the entirety of my life. You've also stuck your nose in where it didn't belong, steel your resolve and contend with the repercussions like an adult.

Now if you're quite finished hurling your opinions and unwarranted interjections around and barking like a rabid dog at those who disagree with you, perhaps you could clamp your jaw shut and let the Intaki continue to speak for themselves and those of us who wish to sincerely and honestly maintain dialogue with them can do so in the appropriate venues and the appropriate manner.

Oh, and one more thing, I'm not "protesting against the Intaki," in anything. I have spent a significant amount of time in dialogue and friendship with many Intaki, including those from the ILF and IPI. They are a wise and reserved people who do a marvelous job of representing themselves and seeking a resolution in a respectful and beneficial manner to all involved parties.

"Though the people may hate me, that does not relieve me of my charge."