Player Features and Ideas Discussion

i know this.

read the post i was responding to, and read my reply.



You appear in local several seconds before you even load the system.

Oh, I agree it is a huge deal.

That said, it takes away nothing from my point.

Specifically:

These cloaky camper concerns are just a bit one sided, it seems.

I see lots of material about how to drive them out, hunt them down, basically make them go away.
(If effective enough, remove any meaningful incentive to attempt that cloaking play style entirely)

In short, we seem to have produced stacks of solutions, where the cloaky camper loses.
While one side losing does resolve the issue, shouldn't we have more than just that one outcome?

In the interest of balance, how exactly are we creating opportunities for the cloaked hostile to win?

Seriously, we do want player driven content in sov null, besides the blob-fests that is.

Thank you for reading/replying Ytterbium.

I wanted to respond to your point.

RE: Structures gameplay opened up for people not participating in Sov Warfare.
Since I am a wspace player and strongly dislike the grind and "job-like political meta" that is Sov 00, I wholeheartedly agree with your, and CCP's, desire to extend structure gameplay to as many pilots as possible regardless of Sov or not. In no way was I suggesting or implying that people be "penalized" for not playing the Sov 00 game. You bring up good points about all three scenarios detailing FW, low-sec and high-sec groups willing to fund such endeavors. As such, I've updated my line item regarding placement of gate-like structures, which is the only place I specifically called out sov kspace).
A word of caution regarding player created gates in non-sov kspace (specifically high-sec). You (the general you) run the risk of allowing the creation of structures that completely bypass/obsolete the work that was put into travel restrictions (jump fatigue and reducing the ease of safely travelling massive distances regardless of mass being moved) by potentially opening up the ability of the games largest blocs to build gate networks from their closest high-sec point to the trade hub of their choice. Thereby greatly reducing the chance to interdict their movements given high-sec pvp and war dec mechanics. Something to consider as you go forward.

I note that you left out of comment, the OA. That is something I definitely feel should be left to kspace only.

Does this mean there's gonna be short range gates and long range gates?

short range would replace JB's (5ly) and the long range gates would be the new stuff?

I have removed two posts. One was offensive and disrespectful, while the other was off-topic, primarily a rant, and avoided the profanity filter.

Please follow all of our rules.

I think with a backup sensor array you can make yourself harder to probe out. (ECCM too, but I don't think that works while cloaked.)

If you can find cloakers, what risk is left in null ratting, an activity stated by CCP to bring in "a ****-ton" of isk?

Even an interceptor finds it almost impossible to snag an alert pilot.

We start by splitting the anti-cloaking defenses into several stages, in increasing order of difficulty. Step one is determining that there is a cloaky ship present at all. Step two is identification - determining approximately where the target is and what he's flying, but not accurately enough to actually attack him. Step three is pinpointing and decloaking. If it takes time to move through the stages (especially if stage one isn't always instant), then a cloaky has a chance to get in and get something done before the defenses kick in. Hunting the locals, ninja mining/ratting/explo...

Personally, I'd like to see some variation in how well systems are covered against covert infiltration, both in how fast each step happens and how many steps can be done using the system defenses as opposed to bringing in a specialist ship.

In the primary market hub of one of the big coalitions, a lynchpin of their logistic efforts and a system where they've invested several large fortunes in upgrading and securing their space? The defenders should absolutely have the tools to detect, pinpoint, and counterattack virtually any incursion into their space. A scout fit for pure evasion should probably still be able to avoid being killed, and have enough freedom of movement to gather at least some intel, but even then the defenders should know he's there unless someone has fallen asleep.

But it should be impractical to extend that kind of coverage to entire empires. An ordinary system - actively lived in and defended, but not a critical strategic location - should have moderate defenses, but ones that can be beaten. A scout should be able to move pretty much at will, and while a combat-oriented cloaky shouldn't be able to hang around for hours on end, they should have a short window to strike before anyone can pin them down.

At the far end of the spectrum, in a system that's only lightly defended or one that's had it's infrastructure damaged by recent raids, the assumption should be that anything could be present at any time.

In any system not covered by the best level of defenses, I'd put the initial 'is there a cloaky here' check on a timer. Use predictable intervals between pings, but don't fix it to the system clock in any predicatable way, to give scouts an additional purpose - anyone jumping in blind might get unlucky and get detected immediately, but if you have eyes in the system you can jump in immediately after a sensor sweep, and maximise the time you have before being detected. Perhaps allow a tradeoff between strength of the sensors and the rate at which they cycle?


To me, that sounds like a cyno-less CovOps frigate. They're explicitly designed for espionage work, and noone would exactly shake in their boots at the thought of being attacked by a Helios.

I'd suggest that a regular cyno carry a large penalty to whatever-it-is that determines whether you can be detected by anti-cloaking measures. Covert cynos should have a smaller but still signficant penalty - tune it so that an attacker can slip one past at least some defenses, but there's no margin for error in doing so.

Combat cloakies should be stealthy yet not undetectable, but I'd give the Covert Ops frigates near-immunity to static defenses (at least when not handicapped by cyno penalties). The structures might give hints that one is spying on you, but actually trying to find it should take active counterespionage efforts by an opposition pilot - possibly by a second CovOps.

Other than Deklein, most ratting is consolidated to a few systems. Deklein is one of the only regions in the game that sees significant ratting spread out across almost every system. (numbers may be wonky right now with Delve 15 going on).

If anything I would expect new sov to spread things a bit to maintain mil levels on more systems.