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[Discussion] Entosis Link Tactics and Ship Balance

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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#741 - 2015-03-09 21:23:38 UTC
Andrea Keuvo wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
All these proponents of the system keep thinking in terms of a 1v1. "I counter your off-grid boosted trollceptor with my Cerberus and my cyno alt in a Maulus."

Yes, Dominion sovereignty might not be perfect, but it is a damn site better than the above. The offensive power of Fozzie Sovereignty is completely out of balance. The defender has to be able to defend everywhere, but has no opportunity to fortify or entrench his position.

Some might say, "but the same thing will happen now!" This is simply untrue. For one, in Dominion, the offense has to commit significant assets to stage an attack. Yes, if someone brings fifty supers to the fight, A may have a problem. But if fifty supers come to the fight, A can request help from friendly alliance C and we get a big fight, or a massive blue-ball fest (that at least has the advantage of only being once, not every day). In Fozzieland, if C tries to help A against B, D will entosis C's stuff. And don't forget that anyone who comes to help probably gets Space Aids. Thank you, Fozzie.


Your example is flawed for several reasons:

1.) Small alliance A doesn't hold space in the current sov system. Perhaps big brother coalition C gives them a system (for a fee), but they will never truly own space unless they themselves can bring a huge force to attack.

2.) Alliance A is the underdog, and will lose space against bigger B. So what. They can then attempt to take it back, especially if alliance B doesn't bother to utilize it. Currently, if Big Bad Alliance B takes your sov, you can't do **** about it.

3.) With the 48 hour reinforcement window, Alliance A can call in all the backup they want. It's only a minor change in tactics for them to have an alliance A member in each backup fleet.



(1) Alliance A can hold space in the current system, with big brother coalition C's support. The fee is paid in military service.

(2) Then how are small alliances going to gain a foothold? They cannot. They will get roflstomped by anyone large enough to want to destroy their stuff.

(3) Alliance A calls for backup from Alliance C. Alliance C moves pilots over. Now honorable third parties D, E, and F, join the fun and hit C's space while they are away. D, E, and F risk nothing, because they come from NPC space or low sec. Or from a coalition so large that it can send off a bunch of pilots during prime time.

In short, you will have a lot of stuff burn after this patch. Nothing will be rebuilt. Coalitions will hold the money moons and one or two critical areas where they continue to build supercapitals. Everyone else will get burned out of space in short order. Low sec and NPC nullsec are the real beneficiaries of the new system. The existing coalitions will become larger and more powerful, but 0.0 space on the whole will be more empty.

Unless of course, 800k new subscribers suddenly decide to start playing tomorrow and the PCU goes up to 100k. Which all trends indicate won't happen.


In the current system, there is only one way small alliances hold space: They are serfs to larger groups. They pay with military service, rental agreements, or whatever. But they have NO ABILITY to stand on their own with the current mechanics.

In the new system, small alliances can attack unused systems and break down an overstretched alliances hold. They might not even bother "claiming" the space, but simply live there and continually prevent big alliance form using it. Sure, they might periodically lose there space at the whims of big bully alliance B, but that's no different than now. The difference is they can actually attack sov without bluing half the galaxy.

Are you really complaining that alliance C has to weigh the risks of third partying a distant fight with their own home defense? That's a great thing for them to have to consider, and if alliance A has their space rolled because they can't bring in a big brother to help defend their space, that is also a good thing!


The important piece that you are missing is that unless the small alliance goes through the logistical pain in the ass that is bringing in freighter sized sov upgrades that system that they took is literally useless to them. Without the sov upgrades they cannot even earn hisec level income, and replacing freighter sized sov upgrades every time big bully alliance B decides to kick down their sandcastle is not really an enjoyable activity for anyone. So yeah, under fozziesov I guess you 'could' take sov as you described but unless you are a masochist why would you want to.


So the problem is the value of space, not the new sov mechanics then... I'm alright with increasing the base utility of space before upgrades. I personally think a single fully upgraded system should support 20 or so ratters.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#742 - 2015-03-09 21:24:22 UTC
I must say, it looks like now the argument is "you need to have 3x the numbers of someone to end their 0.0 dream"

If so, then moa will need some help to end our 0.0 dream.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Erasmus Grant
Order of the Eclipse
Triumvirate.
#743 - 2015-03-09 21:25:35 UTC
Demos at Fanfest!?! You must have some kind of demo ready!
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#744 - 2015-03-09 21:25:43 UTC
i would just release it as is, watch the apocalypse for 6 weeks and adjust it when required later.

troll[insert ship type] is only effective in space you do not live in. So own as much space as you can defend #probemSolved.


we already have the case study out there. Running for 6 years or so. FW farmers (in stabbed cloaky "troll" fits) can only influence sov of empty systems. They do not work in home or staging systems (speak: defended systems). The only real difference is that there are no freeports in FW, which means with current game population there is always more space owned by a militia as they can defend. Null is different. So release it and see what happens, adjust later (the part you forgot doing for FW).

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Tycho VI
Horde Armada
Pandemic Horde
#745 - 2015-03-09 21:26:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Tycho VI
Maybe a viable solution is just really simple....Remove Interdiction nullification from intys...

They shouldn't be able to escape once they get in trouble if they will be allowed to use Entosis.
KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#746 - 2015-03-09 21:26:23 UTC
SilentAsTheGrave wrote:
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
SilentAsTheGrave wrote:
Ann Markson wrote:
While the Trolleceptor thing itself is a useless rage it adresses another issue. Currently the majority of Sov Null systems is worth ****.

CCP has the info and they are seeing boat loads of ISK being made in null. As in a LOT! Sorry this ruins your argument.

ccp are the drunk guy looking for his keys under the streetlight and not where he lost them

isk itself is mostly generated in null. wealth does not correlate to isk generated: a miner makes ore, not isk, a mission runner makes LP, not isk, a manufacturer makes items, not isk

those things then get CONVERTED to isk, but figuring out what that means income-wise is hard so CCP has just looked at raw isk generated and ignored all the other ways you make income.

They have the hard data, you don't. I get your trying to spin this to make it sound like everyone in null is going broke, yet evidence is shown this is not the case. Not just hard data for CCP's eyes, but as a normal player I see coalitions full of super capitals and other 'bling bling' type stuff. You guys even refer to losing 250 billion ISK to a thief as 'chump change and doesn't affect the goon bottom line.'

So tell me, which is it. You are rich or you are poor? Because you can't flip flop around depending on the subject. If you are the later then maybe you should start to question why your leadership is hording all the money while you starve.



Well said. They had better happy with what they have. CCP is definitely waging an income nerf war. The NullSec trough has been way to generous for years compared to CCP's bottom line.
Terra Chrall
Doomheim
#747 - 2015-03-09 21:26:51 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:

Worst case scenario: No one but goons bothers, we end everyone else's 0.0 dream

Second-best case: everyone bothers, everyone's 0.0 dream is ended

??? Case: no one bothers; status quo (except with more interceptors)


Or: People learn how to counter the fast frigate skirmisher or chase them off from used systems. The fast frigate removes Sov from the un-protected unused systems. New corps and alliances move into Null to fill the void. This adds new content, new conflicts, new power struggles...

Yeah I see how there are a lot of directions this could go. Good thing CCP won't let your first 2 scenarios happen as they have stated they will adjust the system to make sure it works and doesn't break everything.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#748 - 2015-03-09 21:27:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:

45 DPS at 124km, your interceptor is dead in under a minute (55.5 seconds, yes I did the math)

It's also a fifth the cost. Your move. Also, yes it has remote sebos. If you can't get two guys together to defend your space against an interceptor in your prime time, what are you doing in sov?

post type #2: is unaware of how interceptors work

specifically, is unaware that an interceptor is not there 55 seconds later

Well, if he's not there then he's someone else's problem.
If you are in an alliance that actually only claims the space people live in, that's not an issue.

"Hey Fred, he's headed your way. Let him waste about 30 minutes before you stop him eh? I've got a couple of things to do first".

or alternatively.

"Wow, these 50 trollceptors have been in and out of here a lot over the last hour. Made me come out and stop them twice already. Whose got the next hour?"

"Sigh, that's me. I'll finish up what I'm doing and head over there in a half hour to take over. Steve, you're up after me".

"Sure, be glad to... I"m just surfin' pron at the moment anyway".

post type 3: lets turn this entire game into a bore-off

Post type 4: Lets over use the word bore and apply it to people mostly being free to do what they always do anyway... for effect.

Being a momentary inconvenience for one of the dozen guys in local isn't really boring, except possibly for you.

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Ranafal
Doomheim
#749 - 2015-03-09 21:27:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranafal
OMFG, 40 pages and still no solution for trollceptor?

1) Just allow to anchor one (only one) sentry gun near every object which can be "reinforced".

2) This sentry gun should be extremely simple, and very similar to gate ones - it just applies 100% of its damage at distance up to 250km and ignores completely target's speed, transversal, signature etc.

3) This sentry gun should do LOW dps, probably about 100-200 dps and have about 1000 EHP, so 1-2 ceptors and 1-2 logsits should be able to kill it easily in several minutes (or just ignore its dps). Of course it can be killed without any reinforce - just as a usual ship in space.

4) But it will still not allow a _single_ trollceptor to get his entosis link start capture because 2 minutes mean that trollceptor will get several thousands of damage before capture will start - and this damage and dps will not depend on trollceptor speed, signature, distance etc.

5) You can also add some reasonable conditions for anchoring this sentry gun - say, Anchoring 5lvl, and strategic index >=2. You can also require to own TCU in the given system to be able to anchor such sentry near every reinforceabe object. This will make sense in having TCU, strategic index, skills.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#750 - 2015-03-09 21:27:35 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
i would just release it as is, watch the apocalypse for 6 weeks and adjust it when required later.

troll[insert ship type] is only effective in space you do not live in. So own as much space as you can defend #probemSolved.


we already have the case study out there. Running for 6 years or so. FW farmers (in stabbed cloaky "troll" fits) can only influence sov of empty systems. They do not work in home or staging systems (speak: defended systems). The only real difference is that there are no freeports in FW, which means with current game population there is always more space owned by a militia as they can defend. Null is different. So release it and see what happens, adjust later (the part you forgot doing for FW).

So we also have the case study out there

it won't be adjusted

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Arrendis
TK Corp
#751 - 2015-03-09 21:27:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Arrendis
PotatoOverdose wrote:
For the basic Math challenged:

Ceptor is on minute 38 of his sov lazor.
Maulus warps in, damps, warps off.
Ceptor never picks up sov lazor again.


For the basic math challenged: 40 minutes requires Sov Indices of 5/5/5. In all of EVE, there is no system like that. The most heavily-defended sov indices anywhere outside of Providence (which manages, I believe, a few systems with an industrial index of 2) produces a timer of 27m.

So keep planning on responding at minute 38.

In addition, damping the aggressor at minute 38 does not reset the structure to 0. It leaves the structure 95% RF'd. (38/40) The attacker needs only 2 minutes to re-establish link, and another 2 minutes (in the mythical 5/5/5 system) of continued operation to finish the process.

Now, this only requires 2 minutes + 9 minutes, 30 seconds (95% of 10 minutes), or 11:30 of defensive entosising to undo. But during those 11:30, the response ship isn't chasing the interceptor. If there's a reasonably-sized defensive group, yes, the interceptor's work can be undone. If not, though, then after being 'chased off' from the structure, he'll hit another one, forcing the maulus to follow behind. What happens next depends entirely on how intelligent the maulus pilot is.

If the maulus gives immediate chase, the interceptor pilot will burn about 3 minutes of travel away - assuming the maulus continues to give chase. He'll do this in a way that encourages the maulus to follow - delaying when he jumps, delaying when he drops cloak and warps off, etc. He'll then proceed to continue burning away, but do so with an eye toward losing the maulus - warp to a planet near a gate and doubleback, etc. At that point, he burns back to that structure, which does not send up another warning ping until his first cycle of 2m has completed. If the maulus has not already doubled back a fair chunk of the way, the RF will complete before he can interrupt again.

If, on the other hand, the maulus immediately entosises his own structure to repair the link damage, the interceptor will begin the process at another structure, which will ping after 2 minutes (again, the completion of his first cycle). This will come shortly after the maulus's first cycle completes, which means the maulus pilot will only have enough time in re-linking as it took the interceptor pilot to find a new target. The maulus pilot should not respond to the new ping. Finish the repairs, then respond. It will take less time to undo the linkage. An intelligent maulus pilot will be able to follow and counter the work of a single interceptor pretty consistently this way.

Here's the problem:

This hinges on that important concept: 'an intelligent maulus pilot'. The maulus pilot, being human, is probably an idiot. Most of us are.

vOv
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#752 - 2015-03-09 21:30:24 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
For the basic Math challenged:

Ceptor is on minute 38 of his sov lazor.
Maulus warps in, damps, warps off.
Ceptor never picks up sov lazor again.


For the basic math challenged: 40 minutes requires Sov Indices of 5/5/5. In all of EVE, there is no system like that. The most heavily-defended sov indices anywhere outside of Providence (which manages, I believe, a few systems with an industrial index of 2) produces a timer of 27m.

So keep planning on responding at minute 38.

In addition, damping the aggressor at minute 38 does not reset the structure to 0. It leaves the structure 95% RF'd. (38/40) The attacker needs only 2 minutes to re-establish link, and another 2 minutes (in the mythical 5/5/5 system) of continued operation to finish the process.

Now, this only requires 2 minutes + 9 minutes, 30 seconds (95% of 10 minutes), or 11:30 of defensive entosising to undo. But during those 11:30, the response ship isn't chasing the interceptor. If there's a reasonably-sized defensive group, yes, the interceptor's work can be undone. If not, though, then after being 'chased off' from the structure, he'll hit another one, forcing the maulus to follow behind. What happens next depends entirely on how intelligent the maulus pilot is.

If the maulus gives immediate chase, the interceptor pilot will burn about 3 minutes of travel away - assuming the maulus continues to give chase. He'll do this in a way that encourages the maulus to follow - delaying when he jumps, delaying when he drops cloak and warps off, etc. He'll then proceed to continue burning away, but do so with an eye toward losing the maulus - warp to a planet near a gate and doubleback, etc. At that point, he burns back to that structure, which does not send up another warning ping until his first cycle of 2m has completed. If the maulus has not already doubled back a fair chunk of the way, the RF will complete before he can interrupt again.


So what you're saying is that the maulus pilots only need to spend a fraction of the time sitting/orbitting a structure to undo this troll...

And of course you assume that the maulus pilot isn't just a local bear that docked up and swapped ships quickly to defend his current system rather than chasing the interceptor to systems...that aren't his system?

Genius.

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
MASSADEATH
MASS A DEATH
Scumlords
#753 - 2015-03-09 21:30:57 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:

45 DPS at 124km, your interceptor is dead in under a minute (55.5 seconds, yes I did the math)

It's also a fifth the cost. Your move. Also, yes it has remote sebos. If you can't get two guys together to defend your space against an interceptor in your prime time, what are you doing in sov?

post type #2: is unaware of how interceptors work

specifically, is unaware that an interceptor is not there 55 seconds later

Well, if he's not there then he's someone else's problem.
If you are in an alliance that actually only claims the space people live in, that's not an issue.

"Hey Fred, he's headed your way. Let him waste about 30 minutes before you stop him eh? I've got a couple of things to do first".

or alternatively.

"Wow, these 50 trollceptors have been in and out of here a lot over the last hour. Made me come out and stop them twice already. Whose got the next hour?"

"Sigh, that's me. I'll finish up what I'm doing and head over there in a half hour to take over. Steve, you're up after me".

"Sure, be glad to... I"m just surfin' pron at the moment anyway".




You are not understanding the goons fear.... they know what will happen...just like the way we hunt thier ratters....


you start to sov troll...they respond... we counter drop...blap thier response fleet .....rinse and repeat...

UNLESS they respond in blob numbers they fail.... and in that case you dont counter drop them..you just move onto the next system.... its AWESOME...

but they cant do that all over the place...thats the crux ...

we can decide what areas to attack..... however they can only respond to a few....not all..... the ones they dont respond too will fall...

until they reach an equilibrium of the size of space they can respond too...

you see.... they dont want to lose any ratting space..... IF They do.... infighting begins..who can rat where...you stole my rats..... ect ect.... i dont have enough rats....you took my rats...

you have to understand that each CFC alliance has their own ratting space..that will turn crappy if they lose their bonus's

who has bets on what CFC alliance is booted first? I put money on SMA



SilentAsTheGrave
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#754 - 2015-03-09 21:31:10 UTC  |  Edited by: SilentAsTheGrave
FT Diomedes wrote:
The offensive power of Fozzie Sovereignty is completely out of balance. The defender has to be able to defend everywhere, but has no opportunity to fortify or entrench his position.

Then stop trying to have sov everywhere. Just take what you need and can defend. The concept is not new or difficult to grasp.
Erasmus Grant
Order of the Eclipse
Triumvirate.
#755 - 2015-03-09 21:32:35 UTC
Guess the one or two post I made suggesting that Battle-cruisers should be the smallest ship that can fit an E-Link is too vocal. Guess I will no longer give feedback anymore.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#756 - 2015-03-09 21:33:37 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
For the basic Math challenged:

Ceptor is on minute 38 of his sov lazor.
Maulus warps in, damps, warps off.
Ceptor never picks up sov lazor again.


For the basic math challenged: 40 minutes requires Sov Indices of 5/5/5. In all of EVE, there is no system like that. The most heavily-defended sov indices anywhere outside of Providence (which manages, I believe, a few systems with an industrial index of 2) produces a timer of 27m.

So keep planning on responding at minute 38.

In addition, damping the aggressor at minute 38 does not reset the structure to 0. It leaves the structure 95% RF'd. (38/40) The attacker needs only 2 minutes to re-establish link, and another 2 minutes (in the mythical 5/5/5 system) of continued operation to finish the process.

Now, this only requires 2 minutes + 9 minutes, 30 seconds (95% of 10 minutes), or 11:30 of defensive entosising to undo. But during those 11:30, the response ship isn't chasing the interceptor. If there's a reasonably-sized defensive group, yes, the interceptor's work can be undone. If not, though, then after being 'chased off' from the structure, he'll hit another one, forcing the maulus to follow behind. What happens next depends entirely on how intelligent the maulus pilot is.

If the maulus gives immediate chase, the interceptor pilot will burn about 3 minutes of travel away - assuming the maulus continues to give chase. He'll do this in a way that encourages the maulus to follow - delaying when he jumps, delaying when he drops cloak and warps off, etc. He'll then proceed to continue burning away, but do so with an eye toward losing the maulus - warp to a planet near a gate and doubleback, etc. At that point, he burns back to that structure, which does not send up another warning ping until his first cycle of 2m has completed. If the maulus has not already doubled back a fair chunk of the way, the RF will complete before he can interrupt again.

If, on the other hand, the maulus immediately entosises his own structure to repair the link damage, the interceptor will begin the process at another structure, which will ping after 2 minutes (again, the completion of his first cycle). This will come shortly after the maulus's first cycle completes, which means the maulus pilot will only have enough time in re-linking as it took the interceptor pilot to find a new target. The maulus pilot should not respond to the new ping. Finish the repairs, then respond. It will take less time to undo the linkage. An intelligent maulus pilot will be able to follow and counter the work of a single interceptor pretty consistently this way.

Here's the problem:

This hinges on that important concept: 'an intelligent maulus pilot'. The maulus pilot, being human, is probably an idiot. Most of us are.

vOv

Or, if you are only claiming sov where your people actually live, the Malus pilot goes back to whatever he wants to do and lets the guy living in that new system take care of it like he's supposed to....

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Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#757 - 2015-03-09 21:34:30 UTC
Erasmus Grant wrote:
Guess the one or two post I made suggesting that Battle-cruisers should be the smallest ship that can fit an E-Link is too vocal. Guess I will no longer give feedback anymore.

realtalk, this is a travesty

if ccp would actually take a stance on this, even one that they end up revising later, we might be able to redact several dozen pages of this thread

alas, while the unknown percolates, we must post
sayasic
Fog Industries
#758 - 2015-03-09 21:35:35 UTC
Simple solution: T2 Module requires 150 powergrid.

Interceptors and other frigates cannot fit it. Cruisers can but at a moderate price. Battleships and larger the powergrid is near negligable.
davet517
Raata Invicti
#759 - 2015-03-09 21:37:55 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:


If the change then happens and the big group then proceeds to do exactly what they warned they would, the dumb people who didn't heed the warning use it as another reason to hate the big group lol. If it weren't so sad, it would be funny.


I'll ask again, who, exactly, do you think they are going to do it to who cant return the favor in spades? The other coalitions renters? I'm not sure that anyone other than those renters has a problem with that, and when you go down that road, be prepared to lose your own renters. They're threatening to grief some fantasy small sov holder that doesn't actually exist, and won't exist, unless and until the coalitions break up.

Actually, the fantasy scenario for most unaligned folks is for the two coalitions to grief each other into the ground while they hammer away from NPC space, so, swing away.

I kind of think that the same oligarchs who negotiated botlord will avoid that, though. They won't attack each other's soft renter underbellies and swaths of barely occupied systems. That'll be the privilege of others.
SilentAsTheGrave
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#760 - 2015-03-09 21:37:56 UTC  |  Edited by: SilentAsTheGrave
Erasmus Grant wrote:
Guess the one or two post I made suggesting that Battle-cruisers should be the smallest ship that can fit an E-Link is too vocal. Guess I will no longer give feedback anymore.

The problem with that is you start limiting the meta dramatically, which is bad. It is obvious in this thread and the previous that simply being active in a system you have sov in is enough of a counter. Requiring BC or larger just means outer lying regions continue to be afk risk free empires due to camping a couple choke points. Which again, is bad.