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[Discussion] Entosis Link Tactics and Ship Balance

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Manfred Sideous
H A V O C
Fraternity.
#681 - 2015-03-09 20:46:55 UTC
Arkon Olacar wrote:
The stats for the T1 module seem pretty good. The stats for the T2 version are completely off. 25km vs 250km, are you high?

The best way to determine who has grid control is by limiting the range on the module. If you've won the fight and have killed/chased off any fleet that actually poses a threat, why should you then give two ***** about some crap sitting 200km off? Restrict the range of the module to 25/30km (if not less), it forces you to slap your **** down on the ihub if you wish to RF it (which is only right).

You could potentially look at a speed reduction while the module is active (on top of the warping restriction). The key feature currently missing is risk - if you want to use the module, you should have to commit to it, and put assets at risk. Currently there is little risk if you can just kite while the 2 minutes run down and then warp off.


The 250km range is a necessity. If they make it a mid range or short range only the meta will be influenced by this. By leaving it at 250km it makes it possible for all kinds of doctrines to exist.

@EveManny

https://twitter.com/EveManny
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#682 - 2015-03-09 20:47:20 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
All these proponents of the system keep thinking in terms of a 1v1. "I counter your off-grid boosted trollceptor with my Cerberus and my cyno alt in a Maulus."

Yes, Dominion sovereignty might not be perfect, but it is a damn site better than the above. The offensive power of Fozzie Sovereignty is completely out of balance. The defender has to be able to defend everywhere, but has no opportunity to fortify or entrench his position.

Some might say, "but the same thing will happen now!" This is simply untrue. For one, in Dominion, the offense has to commit significant assets to stage an attack. Yes, if someone brings fifty supers to the fight, A may have a problem. But if fifty supers come to the fight, A can request help from friendly alliance C and we get a big fight, or a massive blue-ball fest (that at least has the advantage of only being once, not every day). In Fozzieland, if C tries to help A against B, D will entosis C's stuff. And don't forget that anyone who comes to help probably gets Space Aids. Thank you, Fozzie.


Your example is flawed for several reasons:

1.) Small alliance A doesn't hold space in the current sov system. Perhaps big brother coalition C gives them a system (for a fee), but they will never truly own space unless they themselves can bring a huge force to attack.

2.) Alliance A is the underdog, and will lose space against bigger B. So what. They can then attempt to take it back, especially if alliance B doesn't bother to utilize it. Currently, if Big Bad Alliance B takes your sov, you can't do **** about it.

3.) With the 48 hour reinforcement window, Alliance A can call in all the backup they want. It's only a minor change in tactics for them to have an alliance A member in each backup fleet.



(1) Alliance A can hold space in the current system, with big brother coalition C's support. The fee is paid in military service.

(2) Then how are small alliances going to gain a foothold? They cannot. They will get roflstomped by anyone large enough to want to destroy their stuff.

(3) Alliance A calls for backup from Alliance C. Alliance C moves pilots over. Now honorable third parties D, E, and F, join the fun and hit C's space while they are away. D, E, and F risk nothing, because they come from NPC space or low sec. Or from a coalition so large that it can send off a bunch of pilots during prime time.

In short, you will have a lot of stuff burn after this patch. Nothing will be rebuilt. Coalitions will hold the money moons and one or two critical areas where they continue to build supercapitals. Everyone else will get burned out of space in short order. Low sec and NPC nullsec are the real beneficiaries of the new system. The existing coalitions will become larger and more powerful, but 0.0 space on the whole will be more empty.

Unless of course, 800k new subscribers suddenly decide to start playing tomorrow and the PCU goes up to 100k. Which all trends indicate won't happen.


In the current system, there is only one way small alliances hold space: They are serfs to larger groups. They pay with military service, rental agreements, or whatever. But they have NO ABILITY to stand on their own with the current mechanics.

In the new system, small alliances can attack unused systems and break down an overstretched alliances hold. They might not even bother "claiming" the space, but simply live there and continually prevent big alliance form using it. Sure, they might periodically lose there space at the whims of big bully alliance B, but that's no different than now. The difference is they can actually attack sov without bluing half the galaxy.

Are you really complaining that alliance C has to weigh the risks of third partying a distant fight with their own home defense? That's a great thing for them to have to consider, and if alliance A has their space rolled because they can't bring in a big brother to help defend their space, that is also a good thing!

So that's the role of small groups, being the sov trolls.

It was better when we though the NPC drifters would do it, they won't get tired

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Murkar Omaristos
The Alabaster Albatross
Unreasonable Bastards
#683 - 2015-03-09 20:47:23 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Maybe the point is no one can hold sov at all.

It would sure shake up something


almost seems like this is what they are trying to achieve What?
SilentAsTheGrave
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#684 - 2015-03-09 20:47:39 UTC
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
SilentAsTheGrave wrote:

Paying the pilots from the war chest to be active in these systems is out of the question?

why would we want the game to reward unfun bore-offs where you have to pay people to play the game

I find blowing people up to be very fun.
EvilweaselFinance
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#685 - 2015-03-09 20:48:42 UTC
SilentAsTheGrave wrote:
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
SilentAsTheGrave wrote:

Paying the pilots from the war chest to be active in these systems is out of the question?

why would we want the game to reward unfun bore-offs where you have to pay people to play the game

I find blowing people up to be very fun.


me too, which is why i am arguing for a system where that happens instead of the pinnacle of combat being who gets bored first, the uncatchable interceptor or the disposable e-war
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#686 - 2015-03-09 20:49:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
SilentAsTheGrave wrote:
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
SilentAsTheGrave wrote:

Paying the pilots from the war chest to be active in these systems is out of the question?

why would we want the game to reward unfun bore-offs where you have to pay people to play the game

I find blowing people up to be very fun.


me too, which is why i am arguing for a system where that happens instead of the pinnacle of combat being who gets bored first, the uncatchable interceptor or the disposable e-war

Hmm, so I guess we can train the next group of newbies to be sov defense ewar?

They would get to run around and contribute to defending the home

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
MASSADEATH
MASS A DEATH
Scumlords
#687 - 2015-03-09 20:52:05 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
All these proponents of the system keep thinking in terms of a 1v1. "I counter your off-grid boosted trollceptor with my Cerberus and my cyno alt in a Maulus."

Yes, Dominion sovereignty might not be perfect, but it is a damn site better than the above. The offensive power of Fozzie Sovereignty is completely out of balance. The defender has to be able to defend everywhere, but has no opportunity to fortify or entrench his position.

Some might say, "but the same thing will happen now!" This is simply untrue. For one, in Dominion, the offense has to commit significant assets to stage an attack. Yes, if someone brings fifty supers to the fight, A may have a problem. But if fifty supers come to the fight, A can request help from friendly alliance C and we get a big fight, or a massive blue-ball fest (that at least has the advantage of only being once, not every day). In Fozzieland, if C tries to help A against B, D will entosis C's stuff. And don't forget that anyone who comes to help probably gets Space Aids. Thank you, Fozzie.


Your example is flawed for several reasons:

1.) Small alliance A doesn't hold space in the current sov system. Perhaps big brother coalition C gives them a system (for a fee), but they will never truly own space unless they themselves can bring a huge force to attack.

2.) Alliance A is the underdog, and will lose space against bigger B. So what. They can then attempt to take it back, especially if alliance B doesn't bother to utilize it. Currently, if Big Bad Alliance B takes your sov, you can't do **** about it.

3.) With the 48 hour reinforcement window, Alliance A can call in all the backup they want. It's only a minor change in tactics for them to have an alliance A member in each backup fleet.



(1) Alliance A can hold space in the current system, with big brother coalition C's support. The fee is paid in military service.

(2) Then how are small alliances going to gain a foothold? They cannot. They will get roflstomped by anyone large enough to want to destroy their stuff.

(3) Alliance A calls for backup from Alliance C. Alliance C moves pilots over. Now honorable third parties D, E, and F, join the fun and hit C's space while they are away. D, E, and F risk nothing, because they come from NPC space or low sec. Or from a coalition so large that it can send off a bunch of pilots during prime time.

In short, you will have a lot of stuff burn after this patch. Nothing will be rebuilt. Coalitions will hold the money moons and one or two critical areas where they continue to build supercapitals. Everyone else will get burned out of space in short order. Low sec and NPC nullsec are the real beneficiaries of the new system. The existing coalitions will become larger and more powerful, but 0.0 space on the whole will be more empty.

Unless of course, 800k new subscribers suddenly decide to start playing tomorrow and the PCU goes up to 100k. Which all trends indicate won't happen.


In the current system, there is only one way small alliances hold space: They are serfs to larger groups. They pay with military service, rental agreements, or whatever. But they have NO ABILITY to stand on their own with the current mechanics.

In the new system, small alliances can attack unused systems and break down an overstretched alliances hold. They might not even bother "claiming" the space, but simply live there and continually prevent big alliance form using it. Sure, they might periodically lose there space at the whims of big bully alliance B, but that's no different than now. The difference is they can actually attack sov without bluing half the galaxy.

Are you really complaining that alliance C has to weigh the risks of third partying a distant fight with their own home defense? That's a great thing for them to have to consider, and if alliance A has their space rolled because they can't bring in a big brother to help defend their space, that is also a good thing!

So that's the role of small groups, being the sov trolls.

It was better when we though the NPC drifters would do it, they won't get tired



you think small groups will give up? its been 2 years+ and we have not given up...and now we are finally going to have some mechanics that favour our fighting style.

we will grind you daily into the smallest possible area we can force you into.... think of the POCO wars era....x 50

more goon tears please

hopefully even more evil "sov troll" meta ships will be thought up
Acuma
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#688 - 2015-03-09 20:52:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Acuma
It seems like the goons story is going from "It's overpowered and we'll burn down null with trollceptors" to "it's a boring stalemate where the attacker wastes a ton of time compared to the defender and we don't like it." Is that about right?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#689 - 2015-03-09 20:54:05 UTC
Acuma wrote:
It seems like the goons story is going from "It's overpowered and we'll burn down null with trollceptors" to "it's a boring stalemate where the attacker wastes a ton of time compared to the defender and we don't like it." Is that about right?

Nope, it's the same.. the attacker has advantage.

so moa will end our 0.0 dream, and everyone else will also end everyone else's 0.0 fantasy

this will give birth to ccp's 0.0 vision

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Arrendis
TK Corp
#690 - 2015-03-09 20:54:24 UTC
Acuma wrote:
It seems like the goons story is going from "It's overpowered and we'll burn down null with trollceptors" to "it's a boring stalemate where the attacker wastes a ton of time compared to the defender and we don't like it." Is that about right?


For the record, the latter position is more that being a picket defense to protect against these things is boring as hell. Which dovetails nicely into the first one.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#691 - 2015-03-09 20:54:47 UTC
Acuma wrote:
It seems like the goons story is going from "It's overpowered and we'll burn down null with interceptors" to "it's a boring stalemate where the attacker wastes a ton of time compared to the defender." Is that about right?

They're moving goalposts.

Apparently 1 cycle of an ewar module (e.g. damp, point) is now a "bore off".

In reality, It's PTSD. Time was, a bunch of NPC dwellers in ceptors f***ed up a lot of afktars. CFC's been crying about it ever since.
Nelly Uanos
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#692 - 2015-03-09 20:55:13 UTC
The simplest solution seem that activating the Entosis Link should disable MWD/MJD and jump drive.

That leave the 10mn AB T3 destroyer & frig...

or maybe the 100mn Tengu?

I think these few ship would still be somewhat easy to deal with. Most of the troll factor is gone. Smile
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#693 - 2015-03-09 20:55:49 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Acuma wrote:
It seems like the goons story is going from "It's overpowered and we'll burn down null with trollceptors" to "it's a boring stalemate where the attacker wastes a ton of time compared to the defender and we don't like it." Is that about right?


For the record, the latter position is more that being a picket defense to protect against these things is boring as hell. Which dovetails nicely into the first one.

Nope, the defense against the troller is for the trollee to only show up after 38 minutes and flip the roles.

Quite beautiful imho.

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
Acuma
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#694 - 2015-03-09 20:56:00 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Acuma wrote:
It seems like the goons story is going from "It's overpowered and we'll burn down null with trollceptors" to "it's a boring stalemate where the attacker wastes a ton of time compared to the defender and we don't like it." Is that about right?

Nope, it's the same.. the attacker has advantage.

so moa will end our 0.0 dream, and everyone else will also end everyone else's 0.0 fantasy

this will give birth to ccp's 0.0 vision


Attacker has the advantage? Only one link for each side counts......clearly if all you bring is a trollceptor you are at a huge disadvantage of accomplishing anything but wasting about 20-30 minutes per attempt to RF something that you won't be able to RF.......
EvilweaselFinance
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#695 - 2015-03-09 20:56:06 UTC
Acuma wrote:
It seems like the goons story is going from "It's overpowered and we'll burn down null with trollceptors" to "it's a boring stalemate where the attacker wastes a ton of time compared to the defender and we don't like it." Is that about right?

no part of your arguments have any merit and all are very, very obviously from someone who has never placed a ship at risk of dying and is probably mining veldspar at this very moment

what i am merely doing is saying "even if we assume everything you say is true, then look, it's still garbage"

like, the best case scenario is that it's an unfun bore-off, just with a minor advantage to the defender
M1k3y Koontz
House of Musashi
Stay Feral
#696 - 2015-03-09 20:58:56 UTC  |  Edited by: M1k3y Koontz
Assassn Gallic wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
Trollceptors fundamentally don't fit the "effective control of the grid" argument. The things that can hit an orbiting snaked-out interceptor are few and far between and require very specific fits to counter, allowing a trollceptor to easily keep a link alive without effective control of the grid. This also forces specific metas, in opposition to the view that they should not affect the meta - you have to be able to blap interceptors in your fleet composition.

They also simply allow you to evade committing anything to a fight, and if you're attacking sov at the very least you should be risking a single ship.


fortunately you don't have to hit a trollceptor to stop it, just activate your own link.


Except that doesn't "stop" the interceptor, it negates it until one of the two get bored and leave. That's not how sov should be working, you fight for your space not kite for your space.
For the nay sayers one of the more likely fits with stats using an interceptor :


[Raptor, trollceptor fit]

Overdrive Injector System II - 447k isk
Overdrive Injector System II -447k isk
Overdrive Injector System II -447k isk

Coreli A-Type 1MN Microwarpdrive -27.4m isk
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script 1m isk
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script 1m isk
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script 1m isk

[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]

Small Low Friction Nozzle Joints II 2.34m isk
Small Low Friction Nozzle Joints II - 2.34m isk
Fittings spare : 138 cpu (69%), 29.5 powergrid (62.11%).

Implants :
Eifyr and Co. 'Rogue' Navigation NN-603 -12m isk


Fit moves @ 5,093m/s before heat and can target out to 124km.
With heat : 7,278m/s
Full stats can be found here :
http://puu.sh/gt5GV/d49e6babaf.png

Total isk with implants : 71,580,000. (assuming you always lose the pod)

Amount of these you could see isk generated for per hour based on average income from varying sources :
Nullsec anomaly afk ishtar 1 per hour
Nullsec anomaly carrier 2 per hour
Highsec "HQ" incursions 2 per hour ( can double that occasionally)
Highsec "Vanguard" Incursions 1.8 per hour
Highsec ice mining with perfect boosts 0.5 per hour

This is per person assuming they have spent at least a day or two getting familiar with doing their activity.


https://i.imgur.com/dZoUBJK.jpg

45 DPS at 124km, your interceptor is dead in under a minute (55.5 seconds, yes I did the math)

It's also a fifth the cost. Your move. Also, yes it has remote sebos. If you can't get two guys together to defend your space against an interceptor in your prime time, what are you doing in sov?

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Acuma
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#697 - 2015-03-09 20:59:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Acuma
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
Acuma wrote:
It seems like the goons story is going from "It's overpowered and we'll burn down null with trollceptors" to "it's a boring stalemate where the attacker wastes a ton of time compared to the defender and we don't like it." Is that about right?

no part of your arguments have any merit and all are very, very obviously from someone who has never placed a ship at risk of dying and is probably mining veldspar at this very moment

what i am merely doing is saying "even if we assume everything you say is true, then look, it's still garbage"

like, the best case scenario is that it's an unfun bore-off, just with a minor advantage to the defender


Just saying "no part of your arguments have any merit," doesn't make it so. I for one would enjoy you coming in and wasting 30 minutes of your play time while I just undock and spend 2 minutes activating a link so you warp off. You then go to the next system and repeat.......congrats, you just chose to be bored and the defender goes back to business after a few minutes. And it only takes one cheap frigate to ruin your "i'm gonna RF all of null in my trollceptor!"
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#698 - 2015-03-09 21:00:43 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:

https://i.imgur.com/dZoUBJK.jpg

45 DPS at 124km, your interceptor is dead in under a minute (55.5 seconds, yes I did the math)

It's also a fifth the cost. Your move.

please do not post fits that only kill the interceptor inside of a very short, narrow range where the interceptor would not be in any even remotely plausible pvp scenario

basically only post RLML fits, and even then i hope you have 200km+ range

"look at the graph it has a point this is where I can guarantee a ship to be at all times"
EvilweaselFinance
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#699 - 2015-03-09 21:00:55 UTC
i mean really, everyone arguing in favor of trollceptors is doing one of the following:

1) we should get to contest sov risk-free, because its not fair i don't have a sov system and i never will have one if my ships might blow up

2) i do not understand how to kill an interceptor because those aren't used for mining or missioning in highsec, so here is my theorycrafted nonsense

3) i do not value my time at all and don't understand why anyone else does: who doesn't want a bore-off?

like there's not a single post defending them that doesn't fit into one of those three
EvilweaselFinance
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#700 - 2015-03-09 21:01:45 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:

45 DPS at 124km, your interceptor is dead in under a minute (55.5 seconds, yes I did the math)

It's also a fifth the cost. Your move. Also, yes it has remote sebos. If you can't get two guys together to defend your space against an interceptor in your prime time, what are you doing in sov?

post type #2: is unaware of how interceptors work

specifically, is unaware that an interceptor is not there 55 seconds later