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[Discussion] Entosis Link Tactics and Ship Balance

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Author
MASSADEATH
MASS A DEATH
The Protocol
#441 - 2015-03-09 18:19:24 UTC
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
MASSADEATH wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:

This is where living in your space helps.

deklein is the most populous and densest region in eve with the best indexes so i am not sure where you are going with this



Deklin is a barren wasteland of empty useless space..where you could literally search for hours looking for targets outside of the main staging systems of the CFC and goons...and Deklin is the poster child for exactly what is wrong with the current SOV mechanics.

you do realize all of us can trivially check dotlan and see that deklein is massively more occupied than anywhere else


by occupied do you mean eyes in every system to warn the ratters that a gang is coming? so they can dock up? since almost every system now has a station in it?

or by occupied do you mean that a fighting force is ready to respond to defend its sov?

or a fighting force like "theta" that is ready to protect its ratters :)

If you are so heavily "occupied" then it should be no problem defending your SOV space from a few "NPC TRASH" dwellers in frigates...





ADMlNlSTRATOR
State War Academy
Caldari State
#442 - 2015-03-09 18:20:19 UTC
Is it true that using a Entosis Link on a sovereignty structure will NOT display any notifications to the players of the alliance owning the structure unless they are in the system under attack? Because, if so, it would highly disengage players from defending their space rather than engage them to undock and go defend their space.
Some big alliances will used their existing IT infrastructure to query the API for such events, but even so, this information will probably be 10 minus late, if even available to normal players (think FC, Directors, CEO only). While there is the question whether you want small scale sovereignty attacks to be dependable with or without FCs, in order to get more people engaged, the attack notifications should be instantaneous and to all players in the alliance owning the structure under attack.
MASSADEATH
MASS A DEATH
The Protocol
#443 - 2015-03-09 18:20:47 UTC
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
like seriously that deklein is, by far, the most inhabited and used region is an objective easily proven fact like that the sky is blue

trying to argue anything else just makes you look like an idiot even to npc posters supporting trollceptors




should be no problem defending that space then with it being so occupied then..so problem solved for you..
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
Goonswarm Federation
#444 - 2015-03-09 18:20:50 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
i'm plenty fine with this concept as long as the attacker is able to be caught and executed in a situation discounting serious pilot error

interceptors do not fit this category, and the fact that they can generate this logarithmically increasing amount of work at a minimum of cost and risk bodes much more poorly for the rest of eve than it does for us

An interceptor that CAN'T WARP OFF for 2 minutes - and that can be handed further penalties to sig radius, speed or MWD usage do fit that category.

if the entosis module actually applied these maluses to the host ship then this conversation would be much different

but post #1 does not promise any of these things actually happening, so barring another 2 hour interview where they announce these critical details we are forced to assume they are not coming
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#445 - 2015-03-09 18:20:54 UTC
Amyclas Amatin wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


1 system that can at best support 10 ratters hosting 40,000 pilots.


I don't see what the other 120,000 of us are going to do if bat country's 40,000 pilots hog the anoms in the one system that we can manage to hold.


Warr taks up 5 systems just on his own...
Mara Villoso
Long Jump.
#446 - 2015-03-09 18:21:18 UTC
Phoenix Jones wrote:
Probably the simplest solution is ship restrictions. No interceptors (bubble immunity), no covops ship.

Actually I would go as far as saying that the entosis link cannot be onlined if there is any type of cloaking device (covops or basic), on the ship.

So no interceptors, nothing with a cloaking device.

If you want to address the kiting ships, only allow the t2 version of the entosis device (the one at 250km), on battle cruisers and above.

You remove bubble immune ships from beginning captures, remove troll cloaky campers from entosising a system without any help, and remove kiters by making the long range version bc and above.

Yea you will have to put some restrictions on them unfortunately.

The alternative is to make the 250 km version so haneously expensive that people wouldn't use it on a frigate or cruiser.

You can't target while cloaked and you can't warp with entosis link active.
Killian Cormac
Cormac Distribution
#447 - 2015-03-09 18:21:36 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
you just bring interceptors to contest the capture node pimples too


Interceptors will be able to do nothing to prevent organized defenders from capturing their own nodes.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
Goonswarm Federation
#448 - 2015-03-09 18:21:59 UTC
MASSADEATH wrote:
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
like seriously that deklein is, by far, the most inhabited and used region is an objective easily proven fact like that the sky is blue

trying to argue anything else just makes you look like an idiot even to npc posters supporting trollceptors




should be no problem defending that space then with it being so occupied then..so problem solved for you..

we can argue against a hilariously overpowered game feature while simultaneously being in the best position in the game to resist it
John McCreedy
Eve Defence Force
The Bastion
#449 - 2015-03-09 18:23:04 UTC  |  Edited by: John McCreedy
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
You only have to defend the structure that is being attacked... A lone interceptor can only RF on structure at a time... A group of interceptors would simply require a similar group of defenders to respond. The main difference is that you can no longer wait hours for a more ideal formup and then attack with your full force, you have to act more quickly.


No you don't. You have to defend the entire lot because it takes two minutes to cycle the module which, if uninterrupted, presumably puts the structure in to reinforced mode (the blog is a bit unclear on this, it could use some clarification). So for example, let's say 3L3N has a Jump Bridge (I genuinely can't remember whether it does or not), it would be considered a strategically important system. Doubly so if it had an R64 or more there.

The nearest station we can put a Jump Clone in is five jumps away. However, we have no idea how many are in local. Could be one ship, could be one hundred ships. You race over and if it's one ship, you can attempt to engage but the Interceptor is fit for speed so can easily keep out of your tackle or ECM or engagement range. You can go in a sniper but its sig radius is so low and transversal are so high you haven't a hope in hell's chance of tracking it. All he has to do is keep this up for two minutes and your sov is now vulnerable.

But the thing is, do you seriously think those out to cause mischief are going to stop at one system? It's easy for the majority of alliances to form up 51 Ceptors and attack 51 systems simultaneously and this is considered balance? You can fit for speed and attack them and you might kill them but they could cyno in a mate in a cloaky hauler full of interceptor hulls and fits, park it at a safe spot with a mobile fitting thingy and fit up a new captor and go at it again. Even if they don't, even if you successfully kill ship and pod, there's still 50 other systems to worry about.

Manpower becomes an issue because then there's escalation across all systems. They bring two, you bring two, so they bring three but you're a small alliance so haven't enough people online. The system we have right now, for all its faults, is unlikely to result in multiple systems attacked simultaneously. Smaller alliances are at a disadvantage as much as they are right now so it screws over everyone. It's this that's one of the big issues with the proposed changes.

13 years and counting. Eve Defence Force is recruiting.

EvilweaselFinance
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#450 - 2015-03-09 18:23:28 UTC
MASSADEATH wrote:

by occupied do you mean eyes in every system to warn the ratters that a gang is coming? so they can dock up? since almost every system now has a station in it?

yes, it's so occupied that we alert each other when you try to show up, then we dock up the easy prey and you flee before the actual fighting ships can show up

or you don't and then you get ground into a fine paste while we laugh at you

basically it's not deklein is unused, it's that we're much better at the game than you are
Iski Zuki DaSen
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#451 - 2015-03-09 18:23:44 UTC
E-Link can be fitted in :

Ceptors frigates destroyers = NO
Cruisers = Maybe
Battlecruisers = YES YES HELL YES ( brings a reason for peeps to actually use them once again )
Batleships =yes
Carriers= maybe
Supers= NO NO NO HELL NO
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
Goonswarm Federation
#452 - 2015-03-09 18:23:45 UTC
Killian Cormac wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
you just bring interceptors to contest the capture node pimples too


Interceptors will be able to do nothing to prevent organized defenders from capturing their own nodes.

except generate so many more timers that the pure chaff makes targeting the actual point of defense impossible

i'm fine with this chaff occurring due to a force of skilled but theoretically interdictable (read: not bubbles necessarily) folks coming around to **** up sov space

i think interceptors being able to do it is grossly overpowered
MASSADEATH
MASS A DEATH
The Protocol
#453 - 2015-03-09 18:25:28 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
MASSADEATH wrote:

Deklin is a barren wasteland of empty useless space..where you could literally search for hours looking for targets outside of the main staging systems of the CFC and goons...and Deklin is the poster child for exactly what is wrong with the current SOV mechanics.

yeah sometimes you have to wait up to thirty minutes for a terrible membercorp to use the ya0 beacon



perhaps you should have PvP guards on your beacons? Or weigh the risks on using them.

perhaps you will have to have "SOV guards" on duty in your systems?


Leisha Miranen
Doomheim
#454 - 2015-03-09 18:26:09 UTC
Iski Zuki DaSen wrote:
E-Link can be fitted in :

Ceptors frigates destroyers = NO
Cruisers = Maybe
Battlecruisers = YES YES HELL YES ( brings a reason for peeps to actually use them once again )
Batleships =yes
Carriers= maybe
Supers= NO NO NO HELL NO


This plz
Amyclas Amatin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#455 - 2015-03-09 18:26:34 UTC
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
MASSADEATH wrote:

by occupied do you mean eyes in every system to warn the ratters that a gang is coming? so they can dock up? since almost every system now has a station in it?

yes, it's so occupied that we alert each other when you try to show up, then we dock up the easy prey and you flee before the actual fighting ships can show up

or you don't and then you get ground into a fine paste while we laugh at you

basically it's not deklein is unused, it's that we're much better at the game than you are


Can't be so. Gevlon told them they were the chosen ones.

For more information on the New Order of High-Sec, please visit: http://www.minerbumping.com/

Remember that whenever you have a bad day in EVE, the correct reponse is "Thank you CCP, may I please have another?"

Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
Goonswarm Federation
#456 - 2015-03-09 18:27:05 UTC
MASSADEATH wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
MASSADEATH wrote:

Deklin is a barren wasteland of empty useless space..where you could literally search for hours looking for targets outside of the main staging systems of the CFC and goons...and Deklin is the poster child for exactly what is wrong with the current SOV mechanics.

yeah sometimes you have to wait up to thirty minutes for a terrible membercorp to use the ya0 beacon



perhaps you should have PvP guards on your beacons? Or weigh the risks on using them.

perhaps you will have to have "SOV guards" on duty in your systems?



holy nonsequitor batman

i am talking about deklein density here, not your objectively wrong pvp opinions
SoulLess Zealot
Khaedra's Law
#457 - 2015-03-09 18:28:49 UTC
Amyclas Amatin wrote:
Will Entosis links do anything to ship velocity?

If they don't, even if you don't allow frigates to fit them, we will troll in orthruses or 10mn AB tactical destroyers.


Again another farce as much as troll cepters. .. First off you can be countered with the exact same thing... This goes for any percived doomsday fit . Secondly whats the lock range on a tact destroyer? Ever hear of sentry drones or rapid light missles or medium railguns; point is i hear alot of whinning, and not much to support the case except "it will make my life harder and show people im not as good as i say i am" . Not that im directing my comment soley at the author of the quote just the oppinion of.
MASSADEATH
MASS A DEATH
The Protocol
#458 - 2015-03-09 18:28:51 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
SilentAsTheGrave wrote:
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
MASSADEATH wrote:

see we are a Guerrilla force... we strike and move....strike and move... we dont bash our heads into your 30,000 man alliance head on.... why would we?

"we don't do pvp, because we always lose"

Just because they enjoy the game differently than your F1 monkeys doesn't mean they are doing it wrong. Blink

enjoying being camped into 5zxx by 15 chimeras long enough for them to jump clone back to empire is probably the weirdest fetish I have ever encountered in this crazy internet



when you "hell camp" us...we just move...or take out another fleet and just leave you to sit and watch an empty station... here come the threats of "hell camp" number? 10 now maybe more? how many titans was it last time 12? camping us?

perhaps if you took the same amount of effort to "hell camp" your OWN systems..you would have already divised a plan to defend your SOV :)



Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#459 - 2015-03-09 18:29:03 UTC
I'll quit yanking your chain now, because yes, you make it easy.

However you posted this...

Quote:
because if we can reduce the headache for us and make the system actually livable for people who are not us we achieve what we in the biz like to call "objective benefit"

we can occasionally get what we want without it necessarily coming at the expense of everyone else, weird as it is to see written


I will be the first to state that on a very LARGE number of occasions Goons have spoken out against certain mechanics and proposed changes even with those changes might have benefited them (or at least hurt them less extensively than others) if they felt those changes would harm the game overall.

And on those many, frequent, occasions I applaud you... often adding my personal support when you were being dismissed by most as merely trolling or seeking to feather your own nest.

I'll also state that I'm not fond of how frequently cepters will be used to troll sov if left as things are now. I much prefer it require at least a little more commitment (not much though). Ceptor hunting is just an irritating way to spend time.

However, the plus side of easily being able to take sov from someone if they can't put up at least a token resistance (one ship per contested unit) is huge... in fact, it is necessary. Finding the correct balance point is the tricky part.

However, if you continue to pose your arguments as :

We want good fights.
Using ceptors doesn't generate good fights.
Using ceptors against us won't work.
If we take YOUR sov we'll use ceptors, because otherwise there would be a good fight...

Then you'll continue to look silly and self serving.

Other entities, large and small, are well able to defend sov assets from mass ceptor sperges... assuming they haven't bitten off more sov than they can hold. You have zero advantage in that department.

I'm quite sure you can cover more territory than most anyone else, and you well deserve that... but don't try to convince folks that your ceptor spam will be a threat to anyone other than those that bite off more sov than they can cover.

Your main threat to other peoples sov is your main combat fleet, as it should be. Ceptor spam is relatively meaningless for anyone but other large entities that over reach themselves.

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Terra Chrall
Doomheim
#460 - 2015-03-09 18:29:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Terra Chrall
Arkon Olacar wrote:
Jessy Andersteen wrote:
About the trollceptor. It's stupid. Ok, u can't kill the "trollceptor" but...

Remember: targeting range of the interceptor. Put a single Maulus, hyena,keres, rapier, huggin, razzu or a griffin on the field...

Bye bye trollceptor.

Trollceptor is a troll. Don't feed the troll.

Awesome.

Hero owns 98 systems in Catch, and 38 stations. We now need 136 mauluses to spend 4 hours a night sitting on an ihub/station. Except of course if these trollceptors have any kind of weapons, it can kill the maulus, so we partner them with a RLML caracal to prevent that from happening. There, we've kept one of the most densely populated regions in the game save from trollceptors, and it only costs us 1088 man hours per night!

These types of statements are so blown out of realistic proportions that they have little merit except in an extreme case.

If I had 98 systems and 38 stations I would have about 10 interceptors spread around my area during my prime time, that could respond to attacks and determine if they were real. That is 40 man hours for an alliance with thousands of players. The initial cycle time is just how long it takes to start a capture. If you are active in the systems you occupy you will have 30-40 minutes to respond before you a loss. Plenty of time to get your own scout or ceptor there to pause the capture.

If you argue that an enemy could bring in 200 ships to attack multiple systems, then you are talking about an invasion of 200 ships. Yes you will need to rally greater numbers and secure your space. That is what responding to a coordinated attack is about. Only difference from before is it was all blobbed into one system and now it can be spread all over. New tactics will be needed to new threats. FCs might be assigning 2-3 man teams to 1,2,3 systems as an anti-skirmish tactic. It will require more work on individual pilots and less F1 pressing.

The result will be skilled numbers can beat larger unskilled numbers. Dominance over ones sov will spread beyond being able to defend a couple of systems at a time with vast numbers. Those numbers will need to be able to defend multiple systems simultaneously. The advantage to the defenders, is having 30 minutes to respond allows small gang style of clearing out a system and moving to the next when you are dealing with 1-2 attackers in a system. The advantage to the attacker is choosing what systems to target.

Yes you will need to have enough numbers to counter an attack, but that is not new. I can imagine an anti-skirmish crew of 5-6 ships (designed to catch and destroy fast ships) moving through sov space quickly enough that they could destroy 10 solo attackers in 5 different systems before losing sov. Add in a couple solo stall ships that ran ahead and jammed, or link paused the attacker and the small gangs can be very powerful against this OMG trollceptor fleets ruined my life concept.

Yes having to have several anti-skirmish gangs will create new doctrines in the short term. But once trollceptor fleets are a waste of time and money all the new tactics involving fleets come into play.