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Dev blog: Politics by Other Means: Sovereignty Phase Two

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Kinis Deren
Mosquito Squadron
D0GS OF WAR
#3161 - 2015-03-06 17:56:43 UTC
Daniel Westelius wrote:
Dark Spite wrote:
Daniel Westelius wrote:


Oh dear ignorant Eli Apol,
Let's say that one of the major alliances/coalitions loses a handful of systems on the edge of their territory because they cannot respond quick enough.
What happens next? The answer? Nothing.
Most of the major alliances/coalitions have consolidated their space after the Phoebe expansion, what you will have now are wasteland systems.
Systems that are a bit too far to respond to quickly and defend, but close enough that no small alliance can move in without getting wiped out rather quickly.
So I guess congratulations are in order ! You just created wasteland systems ! Such content ! Much wow !


Not so sure who is the ignorant one here. Have you actually left the TNT pockets in Deklein and Tribute and seen the wasteland that already exists in nullsec and even cfc space??? And its even worse elsewhere. The wasteland has been created by the large coalitions and what he says here drives conflict, maybe even in areas players actually could be bothered to travel to.


I know there is wasteland already, this will create even more wasteland.
You, like Eli Apol, seem to somehow miss the obvious. What drives conflict are incentives. Changing how sov is taken does NOT incentivize taking space. The only thing that can do that is to make null sec worth something, and currently, it's not worth much.


Ahh, but wait ....

Feel free to start your Pure Blind evac now, if you even have stuff there as I've only ever seen TNT with the blobswarm ratters in JU-, TXME ect ratting and plexing it up.

If we feel inclined, we might then take that vacated space and USE IT. Sounds to me like Fozziesov working as intended.Cool
Tiberian Deci
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#3162 - 2015-03-06 17:56:46 UTC
Redbull Spai wrote:
T2 is supposed to provide a small but noticiable bonus over T1. Not 10 TIMES the power.

Also, both types of link should be restricted to BS or higher. Possibly BC+, but no lower. Eve needs battleships returning to the fore, the recent tiericide buffed T1 cruisers, frigs, HACs, industrials, mining barges,interceptors - but gave nothing but hate to battleships (slower warp speed, no protection from inties using bubbles, far more expensive - three times the cost in the case of Phoons and Domis, no extra abilities for tier 2 BS's even though tier 2 cruisers/frigs got huge extra bonuses, no extra mid/lowslots, no extra cargobays, no extra warp strength, ect). Also dreadnoughts need a buff too, thier primary purpose was always as the main sov-capturing ship when sov depended on POS's but now they seem out on a limb.

I'd put this suggestion forward, for entosis link capture time:

Battle Ship - Standard Speed

Battlecruiser, Carrier, Super, Titan - 1/3 Speed

Dread Nought - Double Speed


They already said they were going to make it take longer on caps, I think 400% as long was the number floated. But why would you have it capture faster in a dread and capture slower in a carrier/super/titan?
Arrendis
TK Corp
#3163 - 2015-03-06 17:57:09 UTC
Erien Rand wrote:
The entosis mod should only be able to be fitted to command ships or at a minimum battle cruisers. They have the command and control suites as well so it makes sense from a role-play perspective as well.

This makes the attacker commit to at least having a semi-serious fleet(s) while keeping the costs of mounting an attack fairly reasonable.

The idea of interceptor fleets running around griefing all day every day seems a bit ridiculous.


God knows there needs to be some point to flying a Combat Battlecruiser or Command Ship.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#3164 - 2015-03-06 17:59:04 UTC
Tiberian Deci wrote:
They already said they were going to make it take longer on caps, I think 400% as long was the number floated. But why would you have it capture faster in a dread and capture slower in a carrier/super/titan?


Presumably to retain the dread's position as an offensive weapon? It's a guess.
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#3165 - 2015-03-06 18:05:53 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Daniel Westelius wrote:
The stations are only Freeport for a 48 hour period. Unless you expect the new owners to set it as a Freeport and also assume that the established alliances will let it remain as such.


No, Daniel, he's suggesting that the equilibrium resting state of those stations will be ownerless, because whenever someone comes in and claims it, we'll just burn it down again.

Exactly and having neutral space right next to your nullbear capitals is going to be a PvPers delight - especially when they can force someone to actually come on grid with them with a simple highslot module.

The mistake the nullbears are making - is assuming only other nullbears are going to be interested in a neutral system slap bang next door to a PvE wonderland.

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
Daniel Westelius
Shadow State
Goonswarm Federation
#3166 - 2015-03-06 18:07:35 UTC
Kinis Deren wrote:
Daniel Westelius wrote:
Dark Spite wrote:
Daniel Westelius wrote:


Oh dear ignorant Eli Apol,
Let's say that one of the major alliances/coalitions loses a handful of systems on the edge of their territory because they cannot respond quick enough.
What happens next? The answer? Nothing.
Most of the major alliances/coalitions have consolidated their space after the Phoebe expansion, what you will have now are wasteland systems.
Systems that are a bit too far to respond to quickly and defend, but close enough that no small alliance can move in without getting wiped out rather quickly.
So I guess congratulations are in order ! You just created wasteland systems ! Such content ! Much wow !


Not so sure who is the ignorant one here. Have you actually left the TNT pockets in Deklein and Tribute and seen the wasteland that already exists in nullsec and even cfc space??? And its even worse elsewhere. The wasteland has been created by the large coalitions and what he says here drives conflict, maybe even in areas players actually could be bothered to travel to.


I know there is wasteland already, this will create even more wasteland.
You, like Eli Apol, seem to somehow miss the obvious. What drives conflict are incentives. Changing how sov is taken does NOT incentivize taking space. The only thing that can do that is to make null sec worth something, and currently, it's not worth much.


Ahh, but wait ....

Feel free to start your Pure Blind evac now, if you even have stuff there as I've only ever seen TNT with the blobswarm ratters in JU-, TXME ect ratting and plexing it up.

If we feel inclined, we might then take that vacated space and USE IT. Sounds to me like Fozziesov working as intended.Cool



You know how we keep burning your POS's to the ground whenever we get the urge?
Yeah, well this will be the same, and probably even more frequent.
But keep telling me how you plan on *using* the space...
CroisisCZ
Anoikis Exploration
#3167 - 2015-03-06 18:09:10 UTC
Redbull Spai wrote:
T2 is supposed to provide a small but noticiable bonus over T1. Not 10 TIMES the power.

Also, both types of link should be restricted to BS or higher. Possibly BC+, but no lower. Eve needs battleships returning to the fore, the recent tiericide buffed T1 cruisers, frigs, HACs, industrials, mining barges,interceptors - but gave nothing but hate to battleships (slower warp speed, no protection from inties using bubbles, far more expensive - three times the cost in the case of Phoons and Domis, no extra abilities for tier 2 BS's even though tier 2 cruisers/frigs got huge extra bonuses, no extra mid/lowslots, no extra cargobays, no extra warp strength, ect). Also dreadnoughts need a buff too, thier primary purpose was always as the main sov-capturing ship when sov depended on POS's but now they seem out on a limb.

I'd put this suggestion forward, for entosis link capture time:

Battle Ship - Standard Speed

Battlecruiser, Carrier, Super, Titan - 1/3 Speed

Dread Nought - Double Speed


What about the other way around? Restricting it to Electronic Attack Frigates? EAFs are mostly useless now and it would fit the hacking theme nicely IMHO. Plus you get the benefit of avoiding the problems with uncatchable ships trolling everyone.
Mellianah
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#3168 - 2015-03-06 18:10:22 UTC
Not invested in null sec play, so I'm mostly just curious...

I see a lot of people talking about 100m Entosis Frigates/Inties, etc. and that seems unreasonably low to me. Given the amount of Isk lost, so far, to ships killed by Drifters, are people factoring this in? Build cost might be low, but I don't think the market price will be - especially if people stockpile, to limit availability.

And just how numerous are the Drifters, as a resource? Is their 'spawn rate' consistent and predictable?

I'm uninformed, in that respect, but it definitely feels like a tightly restricted supply/demand situation.

I don't doubt 'you lot' will soon figure out how many folks it'll take to alpha Drifters at will, but will there be enough of them to meet demand?

Anyone care to share their Intel on it...?
davet517
Raata Invicti
#3169 - 2015-03-06 18:11:07 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

What's really going to happen is that the coalitions are going to let people come in and take sov and plant ihubs. Then the coalitions are going to kill those. Or threaten to kill those. And if you don't pay a monthly fee...lets call it RENT even if we know it's actually 'extortion'...that coalition is going to jump 40 jumps every month to destroy their assets again and again until they say $%^& it and go back to high/low/WH space.


If what you enjoy about the game is being able to say "I told you so" your strategy is solid. You've got a higher chance of being proven right than wrong. In order for a change in mechanics to result in a change in the game, player behavior will have to change.

The scenario that you put forward is the most likely, but not the only possible scenario. If Black Legion, and the various and sundry groups that actually excel at PvP take this as an opportunity to harass the big coalitions out of existance, they'll have a much better shot at doing so with these mechanics than with the mechanics in place at present. They won't need to take and defend sov. They'll only need to make life miserable for those who do until the coalitions break. That will have to happen first. Yes, while 40,000+ coalitions exist, trying to hold sov will be a bad deal. These mechanics provide an opportunity to break them, but only an opportunity. Players will still need to make it actually happen.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#3170 - 2015-03-06 18:12:54 UTC
i would suggest making entosis links fittings similar to command links thus limiting what ships could use them, stopping the frigate exploits, perhaps even making them class specific say Combat bc's and battleships.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#3171 - 2015-03-06 18:13:30 UTC
Daniel Westelius wrote:
You know how we keep burning your POS's to the ground whenever we get the urge?
Yeah, well this will be the same, and probably even more frequent.
But keep telling me how you plan on *using* the space...

Trying to remember my psychology to discern what type of cognitive bias this falls under....

Not everyone that will benefit from neutral space is a nullbear like you.

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
Jenshae Chiroptera
#3172 - 2015-03-06 18:14:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Eli Apol wrote:
The coalitions aren't going to die, no-one afaik has even hinted at that, shrink and condense, definitely, fracture, perhaps.....
No. We are making plans to just forget about Null Sec completely as an entire coalition, if these SOV changes go through.

Null Sec aka Low Sec 2.0 will not have the value for us to put up with so many constant headaches.

Edit: Hmmm ... flip all systems to, "Fozzie sucks" corporation, soon before leaving. Twisted

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Daniel Westelius
Shadow State
Goonswarm Federation
#3173 - 2015-03-06 18:15:51 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
Arrendis wrote:
Daniel Westelius wrote:
The stations are only Freeport for a 48 hour period. Unless you expect the new owners to set it as a Freeport and also assume that the established alliances will let it remain as such.


No, Daniel, he's suggesting that the equilibrium resting state of those stations will be ownerless, because whenever someone comes in and claims it, we'll just burn it down again.

Exactly and having neutral space right next to your nullbear capitals is going to be a PvPers delight - especially when they can force someone to actually come on grid with them with a simple highslot module.

The mistake the nullbears are making - is assuming only other nullbears are going to be interested in a neutral system slap bang next door to a PvE wonderland.


Playing whack-a-mole with a station... Let's see how long that will last. It certainly won't get boring quickly right?
I am curious as to how close you think these small alliances will get to these big alliances without swift retaliation.
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#3174 - 2015-03-06 18:16:05 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
The coalitions aren't going to die, no-one afaik has even hinted at that, shrink and condense, definitely, fracture, perhaps.....
No. We are making plans to just forget about Null Sec completely as an entire coalition, if these SOV changes go through.

Null Sec aka Low Sec 2.0 will not have the value for us to put up with so many constant headaches.

Completely agree Jenshae, I've not said otherwise, there needs to be a higher, better distributed value in null for this to work :)

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
Kinis Deren
Mosquito Squadron
D0GS OF WAR
#3175 - 2015-03-06 18:17:42 UTC
Daniel Westelius wrote:
Kinis Deren wrote:
Daniel Westelius wrote:
Dark Spite wrote:
Daniel Westelius wrote:


Oh dear ignorant Eli Apol,
Let's say that one of the major alliances/coalitions loses a handful of systems on the edge of their territory because they cannot respond quick enough.
What happens next? The answer? Nothing.
Most of the major alliances/coalitions have consolidated their space after the Phoebe expansion, what you will have now are wasteland systems.
Systems that are a bit too far to respond to quickly and defend, but close enough that no small alliance can move in without getting wiped out rather quickly.
So I guess congratulations are in order ! You just created wasteland systems ! Such content ! Much wow !


Not so sure who is the ignorant one here. Have you actually left the TNT pockets in Deklein and Tribute and seen the wasteland that already exists in nullsec and even cfc space??? And its even worse elsewhere. The wasteland has been created by the large coalitions and what he says here drives conflict, maybe even in areas players actually could be bothered to travel to.


I know there is wasteland already, this will create even more wasteland.
You, like Eli Apol, seem to somehow miss the obvious. What drives conflict are incentives. Changing how sov is taken does NOT incentivize taking space. The only thing that can do that is to make null sec worth something, and currently, it's not worth much.


Ahh, but wait ....

Feel free to start your Pure Blind evac now, if you even have stuff there as I've only ever seen TNT with the blobswarm ratters in JU-, TXME ect ratting and plexing it up.

If we feel inclined, we might then take that vacated space and USE IT. Sounds to me like Fozziesov working as intended.Cool



You know how we keep burning your POS's to the ground whenever we get the urge?
Yeah, well this will be the same, and probably even more frequent.
But keep telling me how you plan on *using* the space...


Lulz, as if we care about structures. You clearly don't get MOA: we're about the fights.

Tell me more how your "Taking out the Trash" campaign and repeated hell camps of 5Z removed us from Pure Blind? Hmmm, what was that? You've suddenly gone very quiet over there. Lol

Anyhow, back on topic ... so you and your coward coalition of 40k+ players descend on 5Z or one of the surrounding systems we may take sov. So tell me, oh glorious tactician, what are you going to do about all the other numerous small entities in Fountain, Outer Ring, Venal, Fade, Deklein, Vale, Tribute and Branch all concurrently nibbling at your soft sov underbelly huh?

Nah, I think we'll do just fine and it will be certainly fun for us in the attempt too.

Fossiesov, bring it on!
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#3176 - 2015-03-06 18:18:03 UTC
Daniel Westelius wrote:
Playing whack-a-mole with a station... Let's see how long that will last. It certainly won't get boring quickly right?
I am curious as to how close you think these small alliances will get to these big alliances without swift retaliation.

And you called me ignorant sigh...

We've just established that you will have swathes of 'neutral' space around all your high indices, high PvE systems.

So the answer is NEXT DOOR.

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
Daniel Westelius
Shadow State
Goonswarm Federation
#3177 - 2015-03-06 18:21:51 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
Daniel Westelius wrote:
Playing whack-a-mole with a station... Let's see how long that will last. It certainly won't get boring quickly right?
I am curious as to how close you think these small alliances will get to these big alliances without swift retaliation.

And you called me ignorant sigh...

We've just established that you will have swathes of 'neutral' space around all your high indices, high PvE systems.

So the answer is NEXT DOOR.


Hahahahahahahahaha. Oh man, that was a good laugh.
Let me know how that works out for you.
Corey Lean
No Vacancies
No Vacancies.
#3178 - 2015-03-06 18:25:56 UTC
Kinis Deren wrote:
Lulz, as if we care about structures. You clearly don't get MOA: we're about the fights


Cant remember the last time MOA fought anything. All I ever see is interceptors running away. This new system may suit you well if the goal is to ninja sov rather than fight for it Roll
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#3179 - 2015-03-06 18:26:28 UTC
Ok, one point that seems to be being avoided or missed, If as some fear, goons send a swarm across new eden capturing everything as content for their players. Yes they can be disruptive, and yes, there will be lots of fights, and yes, they can capture lots of systems..

What then?

Are they going to sit there bored out of their brains?

No they will go home, back to their core, and then they can be taken back.

All this means is that after the initial crazy hour, that the map gets redrawn, and as long as CCP do not weaken and allow defence by strong border again, by making them near impassable for a scout that can switch reinforced mode on, then the game will be healthy.

And balance will be found. Driven by the players.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Daniel Westelius
Shadow State
Goonswarm Federation
#3180 - 2015-03-06 18:28:54 UTC
Kinis Deren wrote:
Daniel Westelius wrote:
Kinis Deren wrote:
Daniel Westelius wrote:
Dark Spite wrote:

Not so sure who is the ignorant one here. Have you actually left the TNT pockets in Deklein and Tribute and seen the wasteland that already exists in nullsec and even cfc space??? And its even worse elsewhere. The wasteland has been created by the large coalitions and what he says here drives conflict, maybe even in areas players actually could be bothered to travel to.


I know there is wasteland already, this will create even more wasteland.
You, like Eli Apol, seem to somehow miss the obvious. What drives conflict are incentives. Changing how sov is taken does NOT incentivize taking space. The only thing that can do that is to make null sec worth something, and currently, it's not worth much.


Ahh, but wait ....

Feel free to start your Pure Blind evac now, if you even have stuff there as I've only ever seen TNT with the blobswarm ratters in JU-, TXME ect ratting and plexing it up.

If we feel inclined, we might then take that vacated space and USE IT. Sounds to me like Fozziesov working as intended.Cool



You know how we keep burning your POS's to the ground whenever we get the urge?
Yeah, well this will be the same, and probably even more frequent.
But keep telling me how you plan on *using* the space...


Lulz, as if we care about structures. You clearly don't get MOA: we're about the fights.

Tell me more how your "Taking out the Trash" campaign and repeated hell camps of 5Z removed us from Pure Blind? Hmmm, what was that? You've suddenly gone very quiet over there. Lol

Anyhow, back on topic ... so you and your coward coalition of 40k+ players descend on 5Z or one of the surrounding systems we may take sov. So tell me, oh glorious tactician, what are you going to do about all the other numerous small entities in Fountain, Outer Ring, Venal, Fade, Deklein, Vale, Tribute and Branch all concurrently nibbling at your soft sov underbelly huh?

Nah, I think we'll do just fine and it will be certainly fun for us in the attempt too.

Fossiesov, bring it on!


They also said Phoebe would destroy us, yet we are stiill here.