These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev blog: Politics by Other Means: Sovereignty Phase Two

First post First post First post
Author
Rainus Max
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#3201 - 2015-03-06 20:03:11 UTC
Its probably been asked but why are a single system's sov bunkers (or whatever the hell they are) scattered across the constellation? If you are going to do that wouldn't it make more sense to change the sov claim from a system based one to a constellation?

And please please please don't make this time zone based warfare, I've fought Russians in Sov wars in the past and it ain't fun - I'd rather have the old POS based system back.

Altirius Saldiaro
Doomheim
#3202 - 2015-03-06 20:06:14 UTC
Rainus Max wrote:
Its probably been asked but why are a single system's sov bunkers (or whatever the hell they are) scattered across the constellation? If you are going to do that wouldn't it make more sense to change the sov claim from a system based one to a constellation?



because player made stargates are coming. Constellation sov will, I believe, be the major basis for anchoring a new stargate.
Ereilian
Doomheim
#3203 - 2015-03-06 20:16:19 UTC
Altirius Saldiaro wrote:
Rainus Max wrote:
Its probably been asked but why are a single system's sov bunkers (or whatever the hell they are) scattered across the constellation? If you are going to do that wouldn't it make more sense to change the sov claim from a system based one to a constellation?



because player made stargates are coming. Constellation sov will, I believe, be the major basis for anchoring a new stargate.


Hmm, standing based gate system.

The tears that would bring would be glorious.
Jenn aSide
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#3204 - 2015-03-06 20:38:38 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
https://soundcloud.com/eve-down-under/eve-down-under-episode-97-060315 is the link of Fozzie being interviewed on Eve Down Under. You may want to skip the first 5 min of introductions.

He addresses interceptors @ 11 minute mark

'If gameplay devolves into people orbiting at 250 km . . . then we would make sure that that doesn't happen"

Prime Time window will be the first 'breakout thread.

Look, go listen for yourself . . . or wait for the next thread. Greygal voiced a good idea of linking prime window to the indices of the alliance. One that is not active would see their window widen, making them more vulnerable.

m


Listen to as much as I could stomach. When Fozzie got to the part where he talked about how much isk was being made in null and how "it's obviously valuable because people rent the space he proved that he doesn't understand the difference between isk (what you get in sov null from anomalies) and WEALTH (what you get more of if you know what you are doing outside, especially if you are doing it outside of sov null). the WEALTH faucets (LP and blue loot for examples) outside of null also sink isk which is good, but that doesn't matter to the individual whose wallet got fatter

The presence of rents means null systems AREN'T valuable enough to take for your self (but are totally ok as a form of passive income for your alliance). The kinds of liquid isk you can make in null as a renter is nice (and that liquidity and ease of acquisition is a key selling point), but it has a hard ceiling that once you get there, people usually smarten up and go do the more lucrative things (like l5 blitzing, FW l4 missions and high sec incursions)

If the main guy leading the charge for sov changes doesn't understand the above, the system he and his people develop when they get to he "why" stage (phase 3?) will be every bit as flawed as the last anomaly changes were (I'll refrain from linking that 4 year old dev blog just this once).

You're supposedly the PVE-ist CSM we have, you should know this things as well , no?
Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
Pandemic Horde
#3205 - 2015-03-06 20:46:18 UTC
Harder to code a level 5 bot.
Vigilanta
S0utherN Comfort
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#3206 - 2015-03-06 20:50:13 UTC
Papa Django wrote:
Kah'Les wrote:
Papa Django wrote:
tlmitf wrote:
http://www.themittani.com/features/proposed-sov-changes-rise-trollceptor

In reply to the issues raised in this article about interceptors being used to "troll" alliances, the answer is simple.


The answer is : there is no issue with trollceptors. It was discussed extensively in this thread it is so easily counterable when you live in your space.


In your mind.

Trollceptor is not there to take SOV the main concerne it is there to promt a groupe to respond to it, and then just fly off and do it somewhere else. But the small brains of high sec do not understand the value of grife and risk aversing.


You just need to prompt a response proportionnal to the threat.

A single alt cloaky scout is enough to see the threat coming.

If you are occupying your space it is not an issue it is good.

I live in a low class wormhole, we do this every f....ing day. We plant alt cloaky scout on every hole, each time someone detect activation we send a response scaled to the threat. We cancel mining we cancel ratting we cancel hunting. We cancel everything for a single noob probe because it is our space.

If it is a single probe it takes like 5 mins to take it out. If it is a small gang we go in POS, we reship then we fight. If we are outgunned we try some harrass with bombers, etc ...

We are already doing these things. It's not an issue when you are occupying effectively the space you claim.


Yea and you realize that your WH pays out 5x better than pretty much all of nullsec? Wh's are bare non the best isk for time spent in the game.
Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3207 - 2015-03-06 20:52:11 UTC
Sadly, what I know and what I am allowed to say diverge, in places.

I am often shown the same graphs as you guys, just sooner. Now conspiracy theorists can claim that all the graphs are misleading or patently false but then what is the point in even engaging in the discussion if you trust none of the data laid upon the table?

I respect the NDA that I have signed and thus, stay a CSM for about one more week. The the guards will change.

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)

Vigilanta
S0utherN Comfort
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#3208 - 2015-03-06 20:56:16 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Mike Azariah wrote:
https://soundcloud.com/eve-down-under/eve-down-under-episode-97-060315 is the link of Fozzie being interviewed on Eve Down Under. You may want to skip the first 5 min of introductions.

He addresses interceptors @ 11 minute mark

'If gameplay devolves into people orbiting at 250 km . . . then we would make sure that that doesn't happen"

Prime Time window will be the first 'breakout thread.

Look, go listen for yourself . . . or wait for the next thread. Greygal voiced a good idea of linking prime window to the indices of the alliance. One that is not active would see their window widen, making them more vulnerable.

m


Listen to as much as I could stomach. When Fozzie got to the part where he talked about how much isk was being made in null and how "it's obviously valuable because people rent the space he proved that he doesn't understand the difference between isk (what you get in sov null from anomalies) and WEALTH (what you get more of if you know what you are doing outside, especially if you are doing it outside of sov null). the WEALTH faucets (LP and blue loot for examples) outside of null also sink isk which is good, but that doesn't matter to the individual whose wallet got fatter

The presence of rents means null systems AREN'T valuable enough to take for your self (but are totally ok as a form of passive income for your alliance). The kinds of liquid isk you can make in null as a renter is nice (and that liquidity and ease of acquisition is a key selling point), but it has a hard ceiling that once you get there, people usually smarten up and go do the more lucrative things (like l5 blitzing, FW l4 missions and high sec incursions)

If the main guy leading the charge for sov changes doesn't understand the above, the system he and his people develop when they get to he "why" stage (phase 3?) will be every bit as flawed as the last anomaly changes were (I'll refrain from linking that 4 year old dev blog just this once).

You're supposedly the PVE-ist CSM we have, you should know this things as well , no?



Did he actually say that? lord of mercy help us if he did. The way we rent space versus whether its valuable or not is up for debate. There is alot of systems that are basically given away just to generate ~any level of income~ form them. Something like 80% of the rent we collect comes from 5% of the best systems IN THE GAME. Im talking the perfect PVE systems in entire regions, your dead end, tons of advanced warning, lots of belts, ice, -.99 trusec systems. If you want a **** system there like 500 mil a month and you honestly could probably talk us down to 250 mil if you talked a good game. Better than moons? yes, but realize we sell our best space for this income, not just any nullsec system
Vigilanta
S0utherN Comfort
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#3209 - 2015-03-06 20:57:44 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
Sadly, what I know and what I am allowed to say diverge, in places.

I am often shown the same graphs as you guys, just sooner. Now conspiracy theorists can claim that all the graphs are misleading or patently false but then what is the point in even engaging in the discussion if you trust none of the data laid upon the table?

I respect the NDA that I have signed and thus, stay a CSM for about one more week. The the guards will change.

m


So your saying you too want to blow your brains out the back of your skull when that ship damage graph showing all the shiptypes that proves battleships are in a good way got rolled out?
Vigilanta
S0utherN Comfort
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#3210 - 2015-03-06 20:59:17 UTC
Rainus Max wrote:
Its probably been asked but why are a single system's sov bunkers (or whatever the hell they are) scattered across the constellation? If you are going to do that wouldn't it make more sense to change the sov claim from a system based one to a constellation?

And please please please don't make this time zone based warfare, I've fought Russians in Sov wars in the past and it ain't fun - I'd rather have the old POS based system back.



I actually agree with you constellation svo would be better, and would solve the 80-90 command node issue.
Jenn aSide
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#3211 - 2015-03-06 21:00:43 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
Sadly, what I know and what I am allowed to say diverge, in places.

I am often shown the same graphs as you guys, just sooner. Now conspiracy theorists can claim that all the graphs are misleading or patently false but then what is the point in even engaging in the discussion if you trust none of the data laid upon the table?

I respect the NDA that I have signed and thus, stay a CSM for about one more week. The the guards will change.

m


I understand that. but all of also know that in the adult world, things can be misleading or incomplete. For example, does the graphs take into account who is an alt? Or how much of a given amount is created by a bot (ie when ccp removes isk from the economy because of botting, does the guy making the isk injection graph know that, is removing that isk an automated process? (etc etc).

I know you can't answer, but the point is that things aren't always how they seem, and how you interpret things matters. Those of us who PVE across new eden and are exposed to different kinds (as opposed to those who stay in one place and never experience the rest) aren't imagining things when we make a half bil doing one thing (blitzing l5s) and 5 times less doing another (anomalies in a pimped pirate BS in null).
Papa Django
Materials Harvesting Kombinat
#3212 - 2015-03-06 21:02:50 UTC
Vigilanta wrote:

Yea and you realize that your WH pays out 5x better than pretty much all of nullsec? Wh's are bare non the best isk for time spent in the game.


We are in a low class wormhole.

Income is not that large. We farm our static, never our home system. Cleaning a nice C3 is something between 1b to 1.5b.
You can do it with 6 pilots in 2 hours.
So it is 125m / hour.

It seems pretty but :
- it need 30 mins to 1h preparations (collapsing, probing, planting scouts). So it fall to a 80m / h per pilot.
- you are often disturbed (covops maybe hiding a ganking squad, K162 pop)
- it is probably the riskier pve activity in all Eve.
- you can collapse your static 20 times and not finding that kind of wormhole to farm -> no farming at all.

So we do what we find in our static and the related chain. We don't farm when we want, Bob chooses for us !

Lot's of wh ? Ok let's explore the chain hunting
Pretty highsec ? Ok let's doing some logistic travel.
Lot's of anomalies ? Ok let's farm
Close connexion with a friend corp ? Let's group with them.

etc ...

This is completly different from farming auto respawning ano in nullsec.

You simply don't know what you are talking about ...

Our way of life is the closest from things CCP want for nullsec. Small corp, small territory actively occupied and defended.
Too small for nullsec but it is the way.
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#3213 - 2015-03-06 21:02:56 UTC
Vigilanta wrote:
Rainus Max wrote:
Its probably been asked but why are a single system's sov bunkers (or whatever the hell they are) scattered across the constellation? If you are going to do that wouldn't it make more sense to change the sov claim from a system based one to a constellation?

And please please please don't make this time zone based warfare, I've fought Russians in Sov wars in the past and it ain't fun - I'd rather have the old POS based system back.



I actually agree with you constellation svo would be better, and would solve the 80-90 command node issue.



Be careful what you wish for...

pre dominion constellation sov was hell

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.

Pooptasticize
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#3214 - 2015-03-06 21:05:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Pooptasticize
Please see: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5557970 for a good idea *Snip* Please refrain from discussing forum moderation. ISD Ezwal.

Edit: Completely unrelated, I also applaud anyone willing to take the slightest amount of criticism.
Perkin Warbeck
Strix Ridens
#3215 - 2015-03-06 21:07:11 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
https://soundcloud.com/eve-down-under/eve-down-under-episode-97-060315 is the link of Fozzie being interviewed on Eve Down Under. You may want to skip the first 5 min of introductions.

He addresses interceptors @ 11 minute mark

'If gameplay devolves into people orbiting at 250 km . . . then we would make sure that that doesn't happen"

snip

m


Wow, just, wow. I assume you are joking. You don't implement a flawed, exploitable system on the basis of 'well we can always patch it up later' ffs.
Vigilanta
S0utherN Comfort
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#3216 - 2015-03-06 21:08:54 UTC
DaReaper wrote:
Vigilanta wrote:
Rainus Max wrote:
Its probably been asked but why are a single system's sov bunkers (or whatever the hell they are) scattered across the constellation? If you are going to do that wouldn't it make more sense to change the sov claim from a system based one to a constellation?

And please please please don't make this time zone based warfare, I've fought Russians in Sov wars in the past and it ain't fun - I'd rather have the old POS based system back.



I actually agree with you constellation svo would be better, and would solve the 80-90 command node issue.



Be careful what you wish for...

pre dominion constellation sov was hell


Pre dominion constellation sov also contained pos invulnerability, so thats a wholy differnt beast than constellation sov.
lilol' me
Comply Or Die
Pandemic Horde
#3217 - 2015-03-06 21:10:31 UTC  |  Edited by: lilol' me
Vigilanta wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Mike Azariah wrote:
https://soundcloud.com/eve-down-under/eve-down-under-episode-97-060315 is the link of Fozzie being interviewed on Eve Down Under. You may want to skip the first 5 min of introductions.

He addresses interceptors @ 11 minute mark

'If gameplay devolves into people orbiting at 250 km . . . then we would make sure that that doesn't happen"

Prime Time window will be the first 'breakout thread.

Look, go listen for yourself . . . or wait for the next thread. Greygal voiced a good idea of linking prime window to the indices of the alliance. One that is not active would see their window widen, making them more vulnerable.

m


Listen to as much as I could stomach. When Fozzie got to the part where he talked about how much isk was being made in null and how "it's obviously valuable because people rent the space he proved that he doesn't understand the difference between isk (what you get in sov null from anomalies) and WEALTH (what you get more of if you know what you are doing outside, especially if you are doing it outside of sov null). the WEALTH faucets (LP and blue loot for examples) outside of null also sink isk which is good, but that doesn't matter to the individual whose wallet got fatter

The presence of rents means null systems AREN'T valuable enough to take for your self (but are totally ok as a form of passive income for your alliance). The kinds of liquid isk you can make in null as a renter is nice (and that liquidity and ease of acquisition is a key selling point), but it has a hard ceiling that once you get there, people usually smarten up and go do the more lucrative things (like l5 blitzing, FW l4 missions and high sec incursions)

If the main guy leading the charge for sov changes doesn't understand the above, the system he and his people develop when they get to he "why" stage (phase 3?) will be every bit as flawed as the last anomaly changes were (I'll refrain from linking that 4 year old dev blog just this once).

You're supposedly the PVE-ist CSM we have, you should know this things as well , no?



Did he actually say that? lord of mercy help us if he did. The way we rent space versus whether its valuable or not is up for debate. There is alot of systems that are basically given away just to generate ~any level of income~ form them. Something like 80% of the rent we collect comes from 5% of the best systems IN THE GAME. Im talking the perfect PVE systems in entire regions, your dead end, tons of advanced warning, lots of belts, ice, -.99 trusec systems. If you want a **** system there like 500 mil a month and you honestly could probably talk us down to 250 mil if you talked a good game. Better than moons? yes, but realize we sell our best space for this income, not just any nullsec system


What a load of complete and utter BS. You don't rent for 500mill or even 250mill. There around 1.5 bill at least i mean some are like a ridiculous 10-13billion!. You shouldn't be allowed to rent full stop. You are lazy so and so who intact should be living in their own systems and getting income from this. What gives you the right to say we own this but we won't live in it, so we 'rent' it out. I hate the whole rental thing, its getting out of hand, and if CCP do nothing to stop it then ill be unsubbing for sure this time. Its wrong for the game.


For me i would create a new instance of eve and let everyone else have a proper chance to start from the beginning, because anyone who has just started or even been playing a couple of years, either has to kiss someones ass, or will never ever get to the same level as the current large alliances, they just don't have the same options or opportunities. This is why people leave in droves. This is why other MMOs have many worlds so that everyone has a chance.
Kinis Deren
Mosquito Squadron
D0GS OF WAR
#3218 - 2015-03-06 21:12:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Kinis Deren
Mike Azariah wrote:
https://soundcloud.com/eve-down-under/eve-down-under-episode-97-060315 is the link of Fozzie being interviewed on Eve Down Under. You may want to skip the first 5 min of introductions.

He addresses interceptors @ 11 minute mark

'If gameplay devolves into people orbiting at 250 km . . . then we would make sure that that doesn't happen"

Prime Time window will be the first 'breakout thread.

Look, go listen for yourself . . . or wait for the next thread. Greygal voiced a good idea of linking prime window to the indices of the alliance. One that is not active would see their window widen, making them more vulnerable.

m


Sorry Mike, but no to Greygal's idea, if I'm reading her suggestion correctly from your post.

The core idea behind Sov 3.0 is that if a system is unused and/or undefended it should be easy for anyone to take - there should be no "remote" defence or reduction of vulnerability for systems that don't enjoy a degree of occupation.
Vigilanta
S0utherN Comfort
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#3219 - 2015-03-06 21:13:43 UTC
Papa Django wrote:
Vigilanta wrote:

Yea and you realize that your WH pays out 5x better than pretty much all of nullsec? Wh's are bare non the best isk for time spent in the game.


We are in a low class wormhole.

Income is not that large. We farm our static, never our home system. Cleaning a nice C3 is something between 1b to 1.5b.
You can do it with 6 pilots in 2 hours.
So it is 125m / hour.

It seems pretty but :
- it need 30 mins to 1h preparations (collapsing, probing, planting scouts). So it fall to a 80m / h per pilot.
- you are often disturbed (covops maybe hiding a ganking squad, K162 pop)
- it is probably the riskier pve activity in all Eve.
- you can collapse your static 20 times and not finding that kind of wormhole to farm -> no farming at all.

So we do what we find in our static and the related chain. We don't farm when we want, Bob chooses for us !

Lot's of wh ? Ok let's explore the chain hunting
Pretty highsec ? Ok let's doing some logistic travel.
Lot's of anomalies ? Ok let's farm
Close connexion with a friend corp ? Let's group with them.

etc ...

This is completly different from farming auto respawning ano in nullsec.

You simply don't know what you are talking about ...

Our way of life is the closest from things CCP want for nullsec. Small corp, small territory actively occupied and defended.
Too small for nullsec but it is the way.


No your way of life is closest to what CCP could have wanted for WHs, not nullsec. okay, so your in a lowclass wh, what class? because from what ive seen most of c3 and below is not inhabited, unironically not unlike nullsec. Difference is 1 wh system supports ALOT more people than 1 NS system.
lilol' me
Comply Or Die
Pandemic Horde
#3220 - 2015-03-06 21:14:43 UTC
Kinis Deren wrote:
Mike Azariah wrote:
https://soundcloud.com/eve-down-under/eve-down-under-episode-97-060315 is the link of Fozzie being interviewed on Eve Down Under. You may want to skip the first 5 min of introductions.

He addresses interceptors @ 11 minute mark

'If gameplay devolves into people orbiting at 250 km . . . then we would make sure that that doesn't happen"

Prime Time window will be the first 'breakout thread.

Look, go listen for yourself . . . or wait for the next thread. Greygal voiced a good idea of linking prime window to the indices of the alliance. One that is not active would see their window widen, making them more vulnerable.

m


Sorry Mike, but no to Greygal's idea, if I'm reading her suggestion correctly for your post.

The core idea behind Sov 3.0 is that if a system is unused and/or undefended it should be easy for anyone to take - there should be no "remote" defence or reduction of vulnerability for systems that don't enjoy a degree of occupation.


look large alliances are getting around this by renting every system, therefore occupancy is always there. This is the problem.