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Dev blog: Politics by Other Means: Sovereignty Phase Two

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Emma Yassavi
Lonestar Distribution Inc.
#2001 - 2015-03-05 01:57:43 UTC
This may have been suggested already, but would it be possible to allow large alliances with good TZ-diversification to increase the amount of time their structures are vulnerable in exchange for increased benefits from those buildings? (say, a base of 20% bonus for the base 4 hours of vulnerability, with an additional 5% bonus for each hour of vulnerability per day)

It seems like it would potentially play well into giving people a trade-off between risk and reward. Also, it would allow the alliances that already have TZ-diversification a reason to keep those alliances together, though with potentially much greater risk.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#2002 - 2015-03-05 01:58:17 UTC
CCP -- I would strongly advise you to prioritize the Entosis Link's precise fitting ahead of all other discussion topics. So much of the conversation relies on which ships can field the Sov Laser. Not making a swift, firm decision on this matter threatens to make any other possible feedback meaningless.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#2003 - 2015-03-05 01:58:54 UTC
Querns wrote:
I must admit to being moderately amused by the folks who think that activating a defensive entosis link somehow prevents the interceptor from causing further harm.

Sure, the interceptor at that particular node gets blocked, but he is free to turn around, burn off grid, then travel to a system 10 jumps away in the time it takes you to disengage your link.

It's not about the individual sov structure or command node; it's about the ability for the interceptor to, when flown by a moderately competent pilot, to choose to disengage at will should the situation become untenable, and to begin poking another sov structure outside of the reach of any ship but another interceptor.

They feel no pity, no remorse, and no pain, and cannot be stopped. Even the Terminator wasn't so lucky.

Not every alliance is sprawled across such large areas that an interceptor jumping 10 systems away is still their problem.

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#2004 - 2015-03-05 02:00:44 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
Querns wrote:
I must admit to being moderately amused by the folks who think that activating a defensive entosis link somehow prevents the interceptor from causing further harm.

Sure, the interceptor at that particular node gets blocked, but he is free to turn around, burn off grid, then travel to a system 10 jumps away in the time it takes you to disengage your link.

It's not about the individual sov structure or command node; it's about the ability for the interceptor to, when flown by a moderately competent pilot, to choose to disengage at will should the situation become untenable, and to begin poking another sov structure outside of the reach of any ship but another interceptor.

They feel no pity, no remorse, and no pain, and cannot be stopped. Even the Terminator wasn't so lucky.

Not every alliance is sprawled across such large areas that an interceptor jumping 10 systems away is still their problem.

Most individual regions consist of systems covering more than ten jumps.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Papa Django
Materials Harvesting Kombinat
#2005 - 2015-03-05 02:04:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Papa Django
Robertson Nolen wrote:
Papa Django wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:

won't take us four hours to RF the entire region, just 30 minutes


Stop with the mittani trollceptor.

A single ship with a link is enough to counter your ridiculous wing of trollceptor.


Except, the intis go after that one ship or bring backup. Then the other side brings backup. Then the one side decides that carrier support can help them destroy the enemy entosis links faster, then the other side brings their carriers then ect. and we are back to square one.

It will become a game of numbers and highsec carebear corps like mine can exploit it as well. We may have no interest in taking sov but if we can entosis your stuff and bait a fight you bet we are going to do it (especially the Ihubs because no one will want to let those be destroyed).



And this exactly why this system is great and designed to : The sov holders have to undock to defend their sov.

And because they cannot defend everything, they have to mix between large expansion with poor locally defenses, or small expansion with good defenses.

And it will free space for others groups and create localized conflicts.

It will still a number game if the attacker have the numbers and want to put efforts on a specific system, or a specific list of systems. But the forces in system A will not be in system B.

So it will keep cap fight and large battle that escalate for specific fights and really strategic systems and open a large room for localized conflicts.

Everyone should be happy. Huge entities like goons keep their landlords status and can terrorize their neighboors, but it open room for smaller group, it give opportunities for roaming gang to impact significantly sov warfare, etc ...
It allow for small / med sized entities to hold sov by concentrate defense or offensive moves on their main TZ.

All good and very well designed.

The only thing is the 2 days RF duration. One day could be great with RF started on friday night and battle event for sov on saturday night / sunday morning.

And you have your week to protect your sov on your main TZ.

Could be really great like this !

The system is really well designed.
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#2006 - 2015-03-05 02:05:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Eli Apol
Querns wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
Not every alliance is sprawled across such large areas that an interceptor jumping 10 systems away is still their problem.

Most individual regions consist of systems covering more than ten jumps.

And not all alliances control a whole region Roll

Hopefully there'll be more of these small alliances once all the big bloated ones are forced to downsize with these changes and leave some empty spaces on the map again

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#2007 - 2015-03-05 02:08:45 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
Querns wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
Not every alliance is sprawled across such large areas that an interceptor jumping 10 systems away is still their problem.

Most individual regions consist of systems covering more than ten jumps.

And not all alliances control a whole region Roll

Confirmed -- for example, Goonswarm Federation does not control the whole of Deklein.

My point yet remains.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#2008 - 2015-03-05 02:11:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Eli Apol
Querns wrote:
Confirmed -- for example, Goonswarm Federation does not control the whole of Deklein.

My point yet remains.

It remains yet it's invalidated by the fact that some alliances have fewer than 10 systems under their control, let alone 10 in a row that would necessitate them worrying about an interceptor taking 10 jumps in anything other than a circular fashion.

edit: technically that would require eleven systems anyways but round numbers sounded nicer

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#2009 - 2015-03-05 02:12:10 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
Querns wrote:

Confirmed -- for example, Goonswarm Federation does not control the whole of Deklein.

My point yet remains.

It remains yet it's invalidated by the fact that some alliances have fewer than 10 systems under their control, let alone 10 in a row that would necessitate them worrying about an interceptor taking ten jumps in anything other than a circular fashion.

The fact that you think alliances at that scale of sov havership are the only valid ones is immaterial to the greater discussion.

e: fixing quotes

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#2010 - 2015-03-05 02:15:06 UTC
Querns wrote:
The fact that you think alliances at that scale of sov havership are the only valid ones is immaterial to the greater discussion.

e: fixing quotes

I think alliances at all scales matter, not just the bloated ones that will have to shrink to prevent said interceptor being an issue ten jumps away because of the dilution of their defensive forces with the current status quo.

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#2011 - 2015-03-05 02:17:26 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
Querns wrote:
The fact that you think alliances at that scale of sov havership are the only valid ones is immaterial to the greater discussion.

e: fixing quotes

I think alliances at all scales matter, not just the bloated ones that will have to shrink to prevent said interceptor being an issue ten jumps away because of the dilution of their defensive forces with the current status quo.

This is a very strange conclusion to draw from the current discussion. The current discussion is about the interceptor's inability to be countered in a meaningful fashion, not the size of an empire. The size of an empire is immaterial to this as well; the interceptor simply cannot be caught in any but the most contrived scenarios.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Papa Django
Materials Harvesting Kombinat
#2012 - 2015-03-05 02:23:24 UTC
Querns wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
Querns wrote:
The fact that you think alliances at that scale of sov havership are the only valid ones is immaterial to the greater discussion.

e: fixing quotes

I think alliances at all scales matter, not just the bloated ones that will have to shrink to prevent said interceptor being an issue ten jumps away because of the dilution of their defensive forces with the current status quo.

This is a very strange conclusion to draw from the current discussion. The current discussion is about the interceptor's inability to be countered in a meaningful fashion, not the size of an empire. The size of an empire is immaterial to this as well; the interceptor simply cannot be caught in any but the most contrived scenarios.


You are wrong.

20 or 50 interceptors can be countered easily by any med sized alliance.

Obviously 300 interceptors or 1K cannot by med sized alliance like 300 or 1K BS or 50 super. But the numbers you put in a system are not in another one.

That's the point.
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#2013 - 2015-03-05 02:24:24 UTC
Querns wrote:
This is a very strange conclusion to draw from the current discussion. The current discussion is about the interceptor's inability to be countered in a meaningful fashion, not the size of an empire. The size of an empire is immaterial to this as well; the interceptor simply cannot be caught in any but the most contrived scenarios.

It's very pertinent when you say that a skirmisher might come and harass someone and then be able to be ten jumps away before they can react - when a small alliance doesn't care about that skirmisher as soon as it leaves their area of operations.

It's no longer their problem. They defended their space and the threat fled.

Now a large alliance which is sprawled across the map may well still have this skirmisher within their borders and necessitate them chasing it around and around for the whole of their primetime because they don't have enough standing members to deal with it where it comes to rest each time.

Is that clearer for you?

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#2014 - 2015-03-05 02:25:55 UTC
Papa Django wrote:
Querns wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
Querns wrote:
The fact that you think alliances at that scale of sov havership are the only valid ones is immaterial to the greater discussion.

e: fixing quotes

I think alliances at all scales matter, not just the bloated ones that will have to shrink to prevent said interceptor being an issue ten jumps away because of the dilution of their defensive forces with the current status quo.

This is a very strange conclusion to draw from the current discussion. The current discussion is about the interceptor's inability to be countered in a meaningful fashion, not the size of an empire. The size of an empire is immaterial to this as well; the interceptor simply cannot be caught in any but the most contrived scenarios.


You are wrong.

20 or 50 interceptors can be countered easily by any med sized alliance.

Obviously 300 interceptors or 1K cannot by med sized alliance like 300 or 1K BS or 50 super. But the numbers you put in a system are not in another one.

That's the point.

Countered, temporarily, but not caught. Not stopped. The sov system as proposed works only if the attacking force can conceivably be destroyed and deterred.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#2015 - 2015-03-05 02:26:55 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
It's no longer their problem. They defended their space and the threat fled.


Until he comes back in 5m.
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#2016 - 2015-03-05 02:28:45 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
It's no longer their problem. They defended their space and the threat fled.


Until he comes back in 5m.

And being a small alliance with a small area of operations, they're all still perfectly within range to come and deter him again...

Picture a wasp in a tiny one bedroom flat.

Now picture it in the Louvre.


That's the difference.

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#2017 - 2015-03-05 02:29:09 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
Querns wrote:
This is a very strange conclusion to draw from the current discussion. The current discussion is about the interceptor's inability to be countered in a meaningful fashion, not the size of an empire. The size of an empire is immaterial to this as well; the interceptor simply cannot be caught in any but the most contrived scenarios.

It's very pertinent when you say that a skirmisher might come and harass someone and then be able to be ten jumps away before they can react - when a small alliance doesn't care about that skirmisher as soon as it leaves their area of operations.

It's no longer their problem. They defended their space and the threat fled.

Now a large alliance which is sprawled across the map may well still have this skirmisher within their borders and necessitate them chasing it around and around for the whole of their primetime because they don't have enough standing members to deal with it where it comes to rest each time.

Is that clearer for you?


Don't focus so hard on the "ten jumps" number. Trying to paint a narrow vignette and extrapolate it to the whole of the experience of Eve is facile. The number was chosen to describe the speed and disengagement prowess of the interceptor, not the exact path in which it needs travel.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2018 - 2015-03-05 02:30:13 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
Arrendis wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
It's no longer their problem. They defended their space and the threat fled.


Until he comes back in 5m.

And being a small alliance with a small area of operations, they're all still perfectly within range to come and deter him again...

Picture a wasp in a tiny one bedroom flat.

Now picture it in the Louvre.


That's the difference.


Now picture a garden after you knocked over a beehive.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#2019 - 2015-03-05 02:32:53 UTC
Believe it or not, when I describe the interceptor's potential prowess in the new system, I'm not using it as a shield to protect I and mine's way of life. Believe me when I say that Goonswarm Federation's ability to optimize any game system precludes any fantasies you might have about our future. After all, they do listen to me. I am careful to avoid this, as it's way too easy to tear down and be used against me.

Think of what I say in more apolitical terms. Having an agenda simply isn't necessary when my point doesn't require it.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#2020 - 2015-03-05 02:33:30 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
Arrendis wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
It's no longer their problem. They defended their space and the threat fled.


Until he comes back in 5m.

And being a small alliance with a small area of operations, they're all still perfectly within range to come and deter him again...

Picture a wasp in a tiny one bedroom flat.

Now picture it in the Louvre.


That's the difference.


No no, that's a perfect analogy - except the wasp doesn't care about who you are, they're trying to annoy anyone they encounter.

So the wasp zips in, stings Small Alliance #1, then zips off 4 systems away (because 10 is, you know, only for huge, sprawling empires... and the Louvre, oddly) and pisses off Small Alliance #2. Then runs another 4j, pisses off Small Alliance #3. Then he zips back into SA1's territory, where they've had time to be aware of him, and there's a bunch of guys ready to kill him.

So he runs back into SA2's space, dragging Gang SA1 behind him.

And as soon as SA1 and SA2 are actually shooting one another, he goes back to hit those SA1 structures again.

All of this is possible because a fast-align interceptor w/a competent pilot is just about impossible to stop.