These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev blog: Politics by Other Means: Sovereignty Phase Two

First post First post First post
Author
handige harrie
Vereenigde Handels Compagnie
#581 - 2015-03-03 20:23:00 UTC
Just to add something instead off all the whine. I think it would be wise to let players designate a 'Constellation Capital'. This system and all structures in it can only be attacked if more than half of the constellation is not under control as the same alliance that controls the Capital system.

You will want to give some defensive measures to the people making use of their space by Industry and all the capital and assets that industry needs, as no one in their right minds will invest anything in a station that can be taken over with welping a fleet to bombers at 1 timer. as the 'Freeport' idea is only beneficial to attackers and messes up defensive players.

Headshotting alliances will never be more easy.

Baddest poster ever

Lena Lazair
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#582 - 2015-03-03 20:23:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Lena Lazair
KC Kamikaze wrote:
A group that really wants your sov will bring carriers ... now you've got carriers on grid for dps or logi .. either way now you bring dreads to the party and triage of your own. Next they will escalate with supers and it's time to put that titan on the field. Battles where large groups are determined to gain that sov will still escalate to large battles.


Except while this fleet is duking it out over system A, the attacker sends 4 other fleets to flip sov in B thru E. Because they don't need DPS fleets and don't need to commit supers to these probes, they just need something that can fit an E-link and defend it. So now defender has to send smaller fleets to defend B thru E. And each of those fights has a chance of escalating too. And eventually attacker and defender run out of pilots and escalating forces and instead of one fight with 4000 people in system A, it's 5 fights with 800 people in each of system A thru E.

True, it will turn into giant TiDi cap blob if the attacker is trying to take the LAST and ONLY sov system from the defender. But otherwise it drastically encourages the attacker to make multi-pronged assaults because they DON'T need to commit caps and supers to each prong until and unless things begin to escalate in order to have a realistic chance of succeeding (since overwhelming DPS is not required).

This likewise forces the defender to actually defend these multi-prong assaults NOW, not later. You can't just ignore it because you know the HP on the defending structure will buy you hours and hours of time. No longer true with E-links. And you can't just let the structures fall and say "meh when these come out of reinforce we'll just drop our overwhelming super fleet to defend it later", since that will no longer be a viable defense either due to the command node CTF game that will then occur.
TheSmokingHertog
Julia's Interstellar Trade Emperium
#583 - 2015-03-03 20:23:42 UTC
Alexei Stryker wrote:
I think ... Its a bit too complicated... I have to read it 2 times to understand the rules


Try to explain trading to someone, and even after 6 to 8 times they still dont get it. Get used to the complexity that is EVE.

"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X

"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron

-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-

Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#584 - 2015-03-03 20:24:58 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Brilliant, love it. ****'s gonna burn.


lol, that's what they said...right before Dominion.

I've got a spare 100 mil lying around, who wants to bet that this overly convoluted new Sov system with too many moving parts ends up making things worse rather than better in the same way Dominon did (remember ,Dominion was 'supposed to give people a reason to fight' and give people 'small gang objectives' but resulted in more blobbing)?

IMHO The problem isn't the sov system, it's the existence of and the very idea of sov in the 1st place.
Tiberian Deci
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#585 - 2015-03-03 20:26:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiberian Deci
Total Newbie wrote:
JustSharkbait wrote:
Overall, I am excited by this proposal. I think it is a step in the right direction. However, the immediate point of concern i see is the prime time feature. I like it for what it is, but am concerned on how that will effect the many alliances that have multiple timezones. It seems like only one TZ will get to have all the fun defensively.

The only overall concern i have is just to actually make having the SOV worth it as right now even taking away structure grinding does not add any great desire to have space. Alliance level money still comes from moons and renters so how will this help change that?



It won't. It's another myopic attempt by CCP to pacify new players and high sec bears.


Says the guy who is unable to find a reason to fight in null or make money without R32's or R64's.

Making it harder to hold extra space is going to force sprawled out alliances to contract, and let go of some money moons. With less income, their members will have to be more responsible about spending isk and SRP may eventually go down. On the whole I can't see that being a bad thing.
Agent Known
State War Academy
Caldari State
#586 - 2015-03-03 20:26:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Agent Known
I'm not sure why people think interceptors or tactical destroyers will be untouchable with an oversized MWD ...as it is, it's impossible to fit a 10mn MWD on a inty at all without a full rack of APUs and an oversized AB doesn't do anything spectacular to their speed....plus, even with a rack of sensor boosters and amps you can't even get close to 200km lock range even with max skills.

The svipul you can get close, but not close enough to avoid being blapped by a well-timed shot from someone who can predict your orbit pattern.
Zanquis
Hynix Galactic Industry
#587 - 2015-03-03 20:28:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Zanquis
Interesting idea and I look forward to seeing it in action. Some few design things and commentary though..

Design Features that need more clarity or might not work

  1. When a structure exits reinforced at its chosen time, it could fall towards the end of its natural vulnerability period. If a structure comes out of reinforced towards the end of the chosen prime time period, will they become invulnerable once prime time ends? Or does a structure's exit from reinforced have a enforced period of vulnerability for four hours?
  2. You had mentioned that an alert is only sent to the defenders at the end of the first cycle of the EL's activation. Combined with the statement that T1 units have longer cycle times, this could end as a benefit to use T1 units. With capitals and T1 links having very long timers, you could potentially find the target captured before the first cycle ends triggering the warning in some cases, or with very little time being given to the defenders to respond in others if the EL cycle time fell slightly short. This mechanic should be reviewed since it would be https://forums.eveonline.com/themes/ccpEveOnline/pix-trans.pnga benefit rather then a penalty the way you currently have this designed.
  3. TCU's look kinda like a forgotten structure in the mix with little value. Please consider enhancing it's ability to give information to the defenders in the same way it gives warnings. For example you could have command nodes show up on the map for systems where you have an active TCU, and perhaps the first warning for any hostile EL activation against your structure could come within 2 minutes regardless of cycle time.


Notable and Disapointing Ommitions from the new System

A sov system change had the opportunity to embrace and possibly enhance the usefulness of planets. More options are needed to encourage "settlement" in a system. People need to be tied to something to make them care, and that is generally relative to the investment they had placed within. Let players 'build' up areas.

I suggest the following

  • Create a system that allows you to populate, educate, and make a planet prosper
  • Planets with a population should have loyalty that is earned through investment in the above
  • Planets should create new cultures that are given a name once they reach significance in population
  • Captured planets need to have populations surpressed until you can earn their loyalty
  • Main resource from planets should be population in addition to their resources
  • Population levels can be attained to get local agents for that faction
  • Passive defense modules in the system, and other major sov structures can be tied to population instead. (Ie. They are manned, and thus your limited by your manpower)
  • Population can provide benefits for PI
  • Population can provide benefits for Industry Jobs (manufacturing, invention, research, etc)
  • You can possibly allow for unique results for industry in areas with a thriving educated population
  • If you reach a level with a high population level and economy, you could perhaps be able to create special trade hubs where you can benefit from sales tax revenues as an alliance. Trade hubs can also gain access to market seeding for items that players cannot build (skill books, some bpo's)
  • Can enable the creation of a government and faction police in controlled systems who must be provided fighters/bombers/ships and use manpower. The government would allow you to enact laws that govern a controlled system which can be enforced by the navy. These laws apply to all inhabitants equally. Such as a no aggression law using concord rules of engagement. These ships are specially built, strong, and can be destroyed. They must be manually replaced by the alliance if destroyed. They do NOT get involved in capsuler wars.
  • Make the use of planets contribute to the system occupancy factor (with changes to add active options that can be measured)
  • Encourage players to build planet populations, economy, infastructre.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#588 - 2015-03-03 20:28:39 UTC
Gilbaron wrote:
Soldarius wrote:

In this new system, even if 1000 titans came to defend, not one of them will be able to rep up the renter alliance's structures. The options are to shoot the attackers or annex the sov structure. I'm intensely curious to see how landlord alliances change their rental schemes to adapt to this new system.


pay us or we'll take your sov


Its already like that.

...

I see your point.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Princess Cherista
Doomheim
#589 - 2015-03-03 20:29:01 UTC
Tiberian Deci wrote:
Total Newbie wrote:
JustSharkbait wrote:
Overall, I am excited by this proposal. I think it is a step in the right direction. However, the immediate point of concern i see is the prime time feature. I like it for what it is, but am concerned on how that will effect the many alliances that have multiple timezones. It seems like only one TZ will get to have all the fun defensively.

The only overall concern i have is just to actually make having the SOV worth it as right now even taking away structure grinding does not add any great desire to have space. Alliance level money still comes from moons and renters so how will this help change that?



It won't. It's another myopic attempt by CCP to pacify new players and high sec bears.


Says the guy who is unable to find a reason to fight in null or make money without R32's or R64's.

Sorry bud but derping around in T1 frigates isnt fighting
Chaddington
Mackies Raiders
Wild Geese.
#590 - 2015-03-03 20:29:01 UTC
I love these changes as a whole, coming from a small/mid sized alliance point of view these changes should make holding sov an attainable goal for a group like us, which is very cool.

I agree with a few issues that have been pointed out though, the 4 hour window of activity is very narrow which could limit the action that off-peak timezones will be able to take part in. Could we set vulnerability windows to be unique per constellation? Or increase the window if we so decide?

I also like the idea of controlling what can actually use the Entosis Links, perhaps through high fitting requirements/role requirements. I think sov holders could be trolled hard by random frigs who put themselves in little to no danger while reinforcing your sov structures. While i do think a group that controls sov should be able to handle a single frig I also think the attacker should have some risk involved. Yes we can halt the attackers progression with a single frig of our own but that sounds like more of a headache than interesting gameplay.
Total Newbie
State War Academy
Caldari State
#591 - 2015-03-03 20:30:00 UTC
Memphis Baas wrote:
Consider me a high-sec carebear, and feel free to treat my opinion as worthless, but what I'm seeing is:

1. Any roaming gang will entosis whatever they can while they roam, and eventually the defender's list of sov units that must be defended will include all of them. Turning the 4 hours "prime time" into "mandatory home defense time for 4 hours." You're presenting the dev blog from the point of view of one attacker and one defender, when in reality it's more like posting something controversial in General Discussion and then having to defend your views against the entire playerbase. I wonder how fun it will be having to counter-entosis all the potshots, every day.

2. Eventually, the system will be: If you want to mine, PVE, or go roaming in enemy space, you must do it at non-prime hours, because prime time is for home defense (and besides, enemy isn't vulnerable in your prime anyway). This does give pilots from other time zones something to do.

3. Bye bye capitals.


Exactly. A bit like putting the cart before the horse eh?
Daide Vondrichnov
French Drop-O-Panache
Snuffed Out
#592 - 2015-03-03 20:30:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Daide Vondrichnov
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
Their litterally forced to be under CTA conditions at all times every day - particularly every day a Main Event might get triggered - let alone the main event itself....


ZOMG I NEED TO LOG TO PROTECT MY SOV !!!!

OMG CCP I ******* LOVE YOU AND YOUR FU... BAT, WE WILL BURN THEM TO THE GROUUUUUUND
Hairpins Blueprint
The Northerners
Pandemic Horde
#593 - 2015-03-03 20:30:58 UTC
Javajunky wrote:
I'm going to say I'm somewhat disappointed, but I shall return to comment after I go throw up.


OMG CCP PLZ CHANGE, WE CAN"T GRIND IT NO MORE.


OMFG CCP YOU CHNAGE SOME THING< OMFG WE WILL UNSUB WIP WIP WIP (Bucket of Tears wil overflow)


KC Kamikaze
Blue-Fire
#594 - 2015-03-03 20:30:59 UTC
Lena Lazair wrote:
KC Kamikaze wrote:
A group that really wants your sov will bring carriers ... now you've got carriers on grid for dps or logi .. either way now you bring dreads to the party and triage of your own. Next they will escalate with supers and it's time to put that titan on the field. Battles where large groups are determined to gain that sov will still escalate to large battles.


Except while this fleet is duking it out over system A, the attacker sends 4 other fleets to flip sov in B thru E. Because they don't need DPS fleets and don't need to commit supers to these probes, they just need something that can fit an E-link and defend it. So now defender has to send smaller fleets to defend B thru E. And each of those fights has a chance of escalating too. And eventually attacker and defender run out of pilots and escalating forces and instead of one fight with 4000 people in system A, it's 5 fights with 800 people in each of system A thru E.

True, it will turn into giant TiDi cap blob if the attacker is trying to take the LAST and ONLY sov system from the defender. But otherwise it drastically encourages the attacker to make multi-pronged assaults because they DON'T need to commit caps and supers to each prong until and unless things begin to escalate in order to have a realistic chance of succeeding (since overwhelming DPS is not required).

This likewise forces the defender to actually defend these multi-prong assaults NOW, not later. You can't just ignore it because you know the HP on the defending structure will buy you hours and hours of time. And you can't just let them fall and say "meh when these come out of reinforce we'll just drop our overwhelming super fleet to defend it later". Because that will no longer be a viable tactic because of the command node CTF game.



I think thats part of the goal. Doesn't 5 800man fights running simultaneously provides a higher degree of difficulty and fun. New tactics will be employed, new fits probably with warp speed rigs will become mainstream ... this is combat evolution right here! The 4000man blob fight is the way of the bittervet. Times are changing and I'm looking forward to it!
Total Newbie
State War Academy
Caldari State
#595 - 2015-03-03 20:31:09 UTC
Tiberian Deci wrote:
Total Newbie wrote:
JustSharkbait wrote:
Overall, I am excited by this proposal. I think it is a step in the right direction. However, the immediate point of concern i see is the prime time feature. I like it for what it is, but am concerned on how that will effect the many alliances that have multiple timezones. It seems like only one TZ will get to have all the fun defensively.

The only overall concern i have is just to actually make having the SOV worth it as right now even taking away structure grinding does not add any great desire to have space. Alliance level money still comes from moons and renters so how will this help change that?



It won't. It's another myopic attempt by CCP to pacify new players and high sec bears.


Says the guy who is unable to find a reason to fight in null or make money without R32's or R64's.

Making it harder to hold extra space is going to force sprawled out alliances to contract, and let go of some money moons. With less income, their members will have to be more responsible about spending isk and SRP may eventually go down. On the whole I can't see that being a bad thing.



The bitter in you, being in Test is understandable.
Lena Lazair
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#596 - 2015-03-03 20:31:52 UTC
Illindar Tyrannus wrote:
So the concept of Timezone is terrible as many people have said before not only does it make section of space perfectly safe for the majority of the day but then creates a situation where alliances in different timezone cannot meaningfully interact with each other without alarm clocking. Please don't do this!


You are asking CCP to fix an unfixable problem.

Alliances in different TZs cannot meaningfully interact with each other because they aren't online at the same time, not because of anything CCP is or is not doing. Period.

In a game where fun boils down to "interacting with other people in real time", there is basically no way around this. CCP is finally just introducing a mechanic that accepts this basic reality. They cannot magically make AI proxies for the other alliance to play in your TZ to enable your fun. Find people to have fun with that are online roughly when you are.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#597 - 2015-03-03 20:32:23 UTC
Okay read the blog. About occupancy and congestion is there any plan to add missions to stations? Maybe make it a lev iv thing if you have ihub and tcu... that will make actually living in the system worth it because as it stands high sec missioning is still better isk per tick.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

MuppetsSlayed
Angelus.Mortis
ISK.Net
#598 - 2015-03-03 20:32:31 UTC
The new simpler system that everyone can understand and apparently automatically knows what they should be doing and when takes 20 pages to explain?

There are good ideas here and some bad ones.

Why make the T2 module 10 times better than the T1 module.
Surely this is the opposite of what your trying to achieve with tiericide.
Why would anyone use the T1?
iP0D
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#599 - 2015-03-03 20:32:58 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Brilliant, love it. ****'s gonna burn.


lol, that's what they said...right before Dominion.

I've got a spare 100 mil lying around, who wants to bet that this overly convoluted new Sov system with too many moving parts ends up making things worse rather than better in the same way Dominon did (remember ,Dominion was 'supposed to give people a reason to fight' and give people 'small gang objectives' but resulted in more blobbing)?

IMHO The problem isn't the sov system, it's the existence of and the very idea of sov in the 1st place.


Systems and interactions can be and often are problems. The base problem however remains the simple fact that EVE's functionality (and past growth) rests on the shoulders of human group behaviour. It's why volume beats all, why economics of scale and power creep are preset to get out of hand, plenty examples to find over the years - each predicted, each resulting in unwanted consequences.

So there's an immersive environment rooted in group behaviour, for a company which has to tweak that towards a sustainable low maintenance low feature cost future that presents a big problem. CCP's solution is to capture that problem within a strictly mechanical approach towards solutions. They do take individual behaviour of types into account, but while they think they deal with group behaviour they in fact only deal with group dynamics - and there's subtle but important differences.

Which is why we end up with a model which is scalable and extensible, but which still rests on the shoulders of CCP's resource allocation without first validating premises for the - let's be honest - madness of human groups.
Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#600 - 2015-03-03 20:32:59 UTC
I suppose if the super-fast, super-agile, super-long-target-range ships of legend ever became an issue, it would be possible to make three versions of the Entropic module, with the battleship-sized module taking the least time, then doubling as it went down to the medium ships, and doubling again into the small ships, with a lore reason being that "more electronics can be fit into the larger modules to do the job" or some such.

Even so, small ships scooting along at distant ranges have low angular, and would be quite vulnerable to sniping ships sitting at zero on the structure, one of whom will probably have a link of their own, thus negating the entire effort of the attacker.

Regardless, as a resident of Thera, I look forward to causing a bit of chaos with the many backwater nullsec connections we get. Wormholes in general will probably become a thing of terror for a lot of nullsec entities as they open up behind their lines, where their intel may be a bit more lax.