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Dev blog: Politics by Other Means: Sovereignty Phase Two

First post First post First post
Author
Sieonigh
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#601 - 2015-03-03 20:33:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Sieonigh
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
Two step wrote:
Suggestions for addressing the timezone issues:

1) Expand the window to 8 hours
2) If you pick a 4 hour window, you also get a 2 hour window 10 hours from the end of your chosen window. This would mean that a US TZ window would have an opposite time that would be RUS friendly and an EU window would have AUS friendly times.

this system is already hilariously biased in favor of the attacker, what would make you think they need more


so everyone is inclusive in attacking the goon structure. don't be a meeny selfish bee and leave out other peeps to play, that wont be fair now :p
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#602 - 2015-03-03 20:33:34 UTC
I'm not in a position to judge the overall effectiveness of the system, so I'll just give props for a bold move.

My last alliance was about 20 people, and we still managed to cover two time zones (EU and US), with peak activity in late-EU early-US. So we could theoretically cover one or two TZs, but we wouldn't want to either-or. If it's a problem for an alliance of 20 people, maybe it's a problem. So, what if you introduced coalitions as a formal mechanic, but as a way of encouraging density instead of sprawl: a coalition is a group of alliances that hold sov in the same space, but with different prime times. (Alternately, you could let multiple corps within an alliance claim sov, and have the alliance be the unifying mechanic).

I loved the question that Rowells(?) asked about capsuleers in NPC corps using the new sov lasers: maybe when they do, they're always working in favor of turning away from sov and toward freeport status. They could burn down unused sov without claiming it for anyone, and turn unused stations into freeports.

The 250km range on the T2 sov laser seems kind of silly: maybe they could have falloff, which increases the amount of time to capture from the base time when in optimal range?

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

Thoirdhealbhach
Liga der hessischen Gentlemen
#603 - 2015-03-03 20:35:17 UTC
Anton Menges Saddat wrote:

I am also envisioning troll fleets of slippery entosis interceptors. Interceptors are already annoying enough with their bubble immunity, this is just going to make it even worse.


No, cause Entosis links are BY FAR the most pricey T1/T2 module, you can put on a subcap. 20 Million for the T1 almost doubles the price of your ceptor AND ties you down for 5 minutes, which is an awful long time, for something as squishy as a ceptor.

Buying the T2 version for increased range and faster cycle time, greatly benefits a ceptor but at 80 Million its not cheaps either. I don't see people doing suicide ganks or other "just for LOLz" stuff in faction frigs either, since that would be the price point of a ceppy with T2 Entosis.

The only possible exploit that I can see is if a ship stays right at the edge of targeting range AND the Entosis link would work in such a way, that it would immediately abort and allow warp, once it is out of range.

Devs: please make sure, that an Entosis Link completes it cycle (including all negative effects) no matter what. Otherwise at lot of stupid, riskless harassment becomes possible, both ceptors and cloakys could spam Entosis alerts and just warp off/cloak up as soon as someone appears on grid.
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
#604 - 2015-03-03 20:35:39 UTC
REALLY IMPORTANT:


Entosis Link should trigger alert IMMEDIATELY - not after a 10 Minute delay when the damage is already done!!!!


*(Please like this post so Dev's will clearly see this)

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf

MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#605 - 2015-03-03 20:36:39 UTC
MuppetsSlayed wrote:
The new simpler system that everyone can understand and apparently automatically knows what they should be doing and when takes 20 pages to explain?

There are good ideas here and some bad ones.

Why make the T2 module 10 times better than the T1 module.
Surely this is the opposite of what your trying to achieve with tiericide.
Why would anyone use the T1?



I would still use a tech i. Lets say roaming in a frig gang i dont want a mod that costs more than the fleet. just because you dont see the use does not mean there is no use

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Agent Known
Blackout Brigade
Already Replaced.
#606 - 2015-03-03 20:36:58 UTC
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
REALLY IMPORTANT:


Entosis Link should trigger alert IMMEDIATELY - not after a 10 Minute delay when the damage is already done!!!!


*(Please like this post so Dev's will clearly see this)


If you're actively using the system they're contesting then intel channels would tell you well before they got to the structures anyway.
yogizh
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#607 - 2015-03-03 20:37:11 UTC
Sieonigh wrote:
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
Two step wrote:
Suggestions for addressing the timezone issues:

1) Expand the window to 8 hours
2) If you pick a 4 hour window, you also get a 2 hour window 10 hours from the end of your chosen window. This would mean that a US TZ window would have an opposite time that would be RUS friendly and an EU window would have AUS friendly times.

this system is already hilariously biased in favor of the attacker, what would make you think they need more


so everyone is inclusive in attacking the goon structure. don't be a meeny selfish bee and leave out other peeps to play, that wont be fain now :p


By playing you mean cloaky camping or gate camping ? Maybe we should move entire CFC to Serpentis Prime and laugh at you trying to take sov, while grinding those sweet missions. GRRR GOONS right ? Big smile
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#608 - 2015-03-03 20:38:08 UTC
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Tiberian Deci wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
xartin wrote:
gment the nullsec playerbase as entire major regions of eve's active timezones will be excluded from participating in content.

Think from the perspective of an attacker wanting to capture alliance held space that is only vulnerable during EUtz.

UStz and AUtz will be completely excluded from any ability to be useful or participate. the same scenario would apply for defenders as well.

How is this different than properly stronting a timer, or a POCO timer? Defender picks his advantageous time, and everybody adjusts accordingly.


BECAUSE OMG IT'S DIFFERENT AND HARD AND CCP ARE KILLING MY PLAYSTYLE AND MAKING SOV WORTHLESS!!!!!


No, sov is largerly worthless already, only thing the vast majority of buffer zones allow you to do is get an early warning that a Random Legion is knocking on your door.

Then again, I'm sure Test could live in a region full of -0.05's just because it's sov.


Could? http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Catch#sec

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Agent Known
Blackout Brigade
Already Replaced.
#609 - 2015-03-03 20:38:11 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
MuppetsSlayed wrote:
The new simpler system that everyone can understand and apparently automatically knows what they should be doing and when takes 20 pages to explain?

There are good ideas here and some bad ones.

Why make the T2 module 10 times better than the T1 module.
Surely this is the opposite of what your trying to achieve with tiericide.
Why would anyone use the T1?



I would still use a tech i. Lets say roaming in a frig gang i dont want a mod that costs more than the fleet. just because you dont see the use does not mean there is no use


They also haven't released the fitting requirements for the module yet. If they follow the normal pattern of T2 being harder to fit, I'm not disregarding the fact that T2 will be unfittable on small ships (like ceptors).
Jacus Noir
Noir Holdings
#610 - 2015-03-03 20:38:26 UTC
hmm "Prime Time" goes a bit like this, Alliance mail goes out reading:

CTA Everyone! Structures are going vulnerable in 1 hour, drop what you are doing, come hug the station and defend the system from attack...btw we get to do this every day of the week same time, so get used to stopping what you are doing and not enjoying the "sandbox" and get used to playing king of the hill.


I mean seriously CCP...the current system is miles better than this, are you TRYING to push people back into low sec? I mean Im sorry but these changes are absolute garbage, you guys really need to go back to the drawing board and take a look at this because this is very labor intensive and having to do it every single flipping day is madding enough for someone to go, eh not worth it just go back to low sec where I can fight instead of having to baby sit my station every 20 hours.
Agent Known
Blackout Brigade
Already Replaced.
#611 - 2015-03-03 20:39:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Agent Known
Jacus Noir wrote:
hmm "Prime Time" goes a bit like this, Alliance mail goes out reading:

CTA Everyone! Structures are going vulnerable in 1 hour, drop what you are doing, come hug the station and defend the system from attack...btw we get to do this every day of the week same time, so get used to stopping what you are doing and not enjoying the "sandbox" and get used to playing king of the hill.


I mean seriously CCP...the current system is miles better than this, are you TRYING to push people back into low sec? I mean Im sorry but these changes are absolute garbage, you guys really need to go back to the drawing board and take a look at this because this is very labor intensive and having to do it every single flipping day is madding enough for someone to go, eh not worth it just go back to low sec where I can fight instead of having to baby sit my station every 20 hours.


If you want your own little piece of New Eden, you have to fight for it. Pretty simple. No longer can half your alliance fool around in other parts of the universe knowing full well that all their systems are perfectly safe until almost a week of timers pass.
Total Newbie
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#612 - 2015-03-03 20:39:48 UTC
NPC Null Just became the New Sov. Massive occupations, safe place to launch griefing operations..... all the fights will be about moons, not sov anyway.
Demetri Dentrov
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#613 - 2015-03-03 20:39:59 UTC
huh. Ok.

So, what's to stop the largest alliances from simply synchronizing their vulnerability windows? Perhaps I don't fully understand the system (Only read it once. Didn't scribble stuff on scratch paper like I usually do...) but wouldn't syncing the vulnerability window create a sort of "Mutually Assured Destruction" scenario that neither alliance would dare to breach?

If you need all your forces to defend during a window, then you cannot use those forces to attack during the same window.
Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#614 - 2015-03-03 20:41:07 UTC
The one saving grace of your dumb interceptor changes a couple of patches back was that they were merely useful in harrassment and at least you couldn't really do anything strategic with them.

But with this? Welcome to the age of the Entoseptor.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.

Alexis Nightwish
#615 - 2015-03-03 20:41:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Alexis Nightwish
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We know that when changing a system as complex and competitive as Nullsec Sovereignty, it is very important to provide adequate time to incorporate feedback and get the changes right. We have been discussing these designs in detail with the Council of Stellar Management for a little over a month now and we are releasing these dev blogs early so that we can get the crucial public feedback process started as soon as possible.

You say this, but what you will actually do is what you always do: you'll come up with a 'solution' (may be good, may be bad) and you'll decide you're doing that. THEN you'll ask for feedback, and based on that you might tweak it a bit and call that "listening to player feedback".

If you actually wanted our feedback you'd tell us what you're thinking about doing before you start coding it. Players would point out its flaws and its benefits, and then we work together to improve it (after all we, CCP and the players, are after the same goal). Then once you get a nice, refined solution you start coding it.

CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge

EVE Online's "I win!" Button

Fixing bombs, not the bombers

KC Kamikaze
Blue-Fire
Great Blue Balls of Fire
#616 - 2015-03-03 20:41:26 UTC
Jacus Noir wrote:
hmm "Prime Time" goes a bit like this, Alliance mail goes out reading:

CTA Everyone! Structures are going vulnerable in 1 hour, drop what you are doing, come hug the station and defend the system from attack...btw we get to do this every day of the week same time, so get used to stopping what you are doing and not enjoying the "sandbox" and get used to playing king of the hill.


I mean seriously CCP...the current system is miles better than this, are you TRYING to push people back into low sec? I mean Im sorry but these changes are absolute garbage, you guys really need to go back to the drawing board and take a look at this because this is very labor intensive and having to do it every single flipping day is madding enough for someone to go, eh not worth it just go back to low sec where I can fight instead of having to baby sit my station every 20 hours.


Babysitting your station is the entire point. Do your work in and near your home system so that if someone comes you can defend it. With this mechanic the fights will come to you. You want to own space you gotta be there to protect it.
Total Newbie
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#617 - 2015-03-03 20:42:05 UTC
Agent Known wrote:
Jacus Noir wrote:
hmm "Prime Time" goes a bit like this, Alliance mail goes out reading:

CTA Everyone! Structures are going vulnerable in 1 hour, drop what you are doing, come hug the station and defend the system from attack...btw we get to do this every day of the week same time, so get used to stopping what you are doing and not enjoying the "sandbox" and get used to playing king of the hill.


I mean seriously CCP...the current system is miles better than this, are you TRYING to push people back into low sec? I mean Im sorry but these changes are absolute garbage, you guys really need to go back to the drawing board and take a look at this because this is very labor intensive and having to do it every single flipping day is madding enough for someone to go, eh not worth it just go back to low sec where I can fight instead of having to baby sit my station every 20 hours.


If you want your own little piece of New Eden, you have to fight for it. Pretty simple. No longer can half your alliance fool around in other parts of the universe knowing full well that all their systems are perfectly safe until almost a week of timers pass.


That's why you are CURRENTLY in Null doing that, right?
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
#618 - 2015-03-03 20:42:31 UTC
I keep hearing how bad nullsec is, then a Nulli guys says its so bad he rents it out to people who pay them vast rent and presumbaly make ISK out of it, otherwise they would not be there. The contradictions are huge, why would they rent space if they could not make ISK out of it.

I was part of an alliance that rented space from Atlas, 4 truly bad truesec systems in Querious for 1bn rent each system per month, when Atlas hadd been ordered back to Stain by -A-, it was when CCP had destroyed low truesec income and yet my alliance stood our ground when the Goons and their allies did their freeport Delve idea and still made ISK out of it.

It just takes bottle and effort.

All you whining people about null sec is too bad, if I had even the poorest nullsec system, I could make ISK out of it.

I have read though this now a couple of times and I like it.

People are going on about the 4 hour TZ issue, but the issue is that most small entities are collected into one main TZ, so it has to be this way. Lets take the Goons as an example they have full TZ coverage, the EU and US is pretty much the same, the AU TZ is also the biggest in game at this point. If they chose to defend in US TZ there is overlap and of course those other TZ's could go and counter attack. If you want to have differeing TZ's for different systems you could do it to share the load. Stop being so damn negative.

I think it is well worked out and will develop more small fleet combat and smaller groups going after poor space and trying to defend it because with this you can just keep at it, you have the chance to get and hold space through sheer determination not just through the size of your titan fleet and yet those big battles will still happen because people like to blow up shinies.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Trii Seo
I too am gay
#619 - 2015-03-03 20:42:47 UTC
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:

Why? Because Sov Trolls will totally become a thing, and a small group faking a sov take over every day day after day is beyond annoying...


Sov trolls exist today. Sometimes they show up in one place to ping a station, drop an SBU to irritate the owner... but it's rarely severe. With the new system, sov trolling would become easy.

"It's a good thing!" You may say. "That will force those nullbears out of their hiding caves so I can easily pad my killboard!"

No. It won't.

Point one: "Nullbears" will either let you reinforce the system, and blob you if you show up for the RF timer, or if they have the numbers just undock and blob you.

Point two: There will be no "Nullbears".

A "Carebear" populace that becomes natural prey and attracts predators (and by extent, bigger fish that would hunt them, sparking fights) requires a stable, profitable environment. A concept discussed long ago as "Farms and fields". The system proposed is not farms and fields. This is a prelude to a FW consequence-less pingpong where you hold sov for the sake of holding sov.

Moreover, this will not award 0.0 to the most skilled, competent pvp alliances. This, as any complex system, will put on the map those who can game the system the best to their favour. Combined with the fact that there's very little incentive to hold sov in the first place, will leave the situation as-is:

- Those who game the system best hold the most space, likely using renters to keep the defensive indices up.
- Other groups exist on the fringe picking at renters but running from the larger group, scoring big kills but never truly competing for sovereignity. If said entity grows big enough, it will prod the larger group to get a fight but, once more, never dispute sov.

And so, everything returns to normal. Except for I guess a change in seats in a few places.

Given I'm feeling particularily posty today, let's get a bit epic:

The spirit of sov is that of profit, high-level machinations and decisions made at meta level in smoke filled rooms. The spirit of sov is that of bloody, no-holds-barred war filled with propaganda. A bloody campaign that ends leaves you with tales of blowing up spaceships with your spacefriends, participating in battles small and large.

The underlying system may be complex or simple. It may be "Control 50%+ of the system POS coverage", it may be "Drop SBUs then grind timer 1 2...n". What it needs, and absolutely requires, is a reason to launch a war.

Give the people a reason first. Then you will see that they will hop through the hoops of even the old system to claim what they want. Then **** will burn.

This has been the 0.01ISK of a perpetually drunken irrelevant grunt of an irrelevant alliance full of obvious 'nullbears',
Who probably earns less than an incursion runner but would even pay to fight once more a war that matters,
And is of firm belief that the current system sucks.

Proud pilot of the Imperium

Arek'Jaalan: Heliograph

Phoenix Jones
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#620 - 2015-03-03 20:43:33 UTC
I thought 4 hour window would be too short and considered a 6 hour window instead, then thought, wow 6 hours is a lot to be online guarding a system, and reverted back to 4 hours.

There is not a lot to worry about with this. Damn you are addressing this positively.

Yaay!!!!