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Rise's job queue: ECM
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Lucretia DeWinter
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2015-02-27 16:55:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucretia DeWinter
Among the many things in the queue for balancing is ECM.

My suggestion (and I'm sure there are plenty who will agree and disagree) is hopefully simple and effective.

Instead of ECM being a binary result as it is now (jammed / not jammed) and the annoyance of chain-stun type effects that ECM can provide, the mechanic of how ECM is applied should be where the balance is made:

ECM is a resisted roll vs. target sensor strength - nothing new here
ECM jams a target for X seconds, where X is based on the difference between the attackers ECM value and the defenders Sensor value. ECM can then be further balanced by retaining or increasing the cycle time of ECM modules.

Why this way? It provides a way for ECM to still be useful compared to damps or other EWAR disruption whilst reducing the helplessness of Because Of Falcon. And mitigates 100% jams. And makes all ECM and modifying sensor/ECM/ECCM modules have value.


A simple example: (with arbitrary values for ease of illustration)

Falcon Pilot has ECM strength of 10
Target has Sensor Strength of 20

Current mechanic gives 50% chance to jam for 20 seconds.
Balanced mechanic would give a 50% chance to jam for 10 seconds (including the relative opposed strengths of attacker / defender.)

If target Sensor Strength = 40? With the same ECM strength of 10, gives a 25% chance to jam for 5 seconds... or SS=10? 100%* for 20 seconds. ( * - maybe there should be an upper limit, say 95% to always allow for potential fails) Which if ECM cycle time was upped to 30 seconds would still be powerful and useful yet remove a lot of the feelings of overpowerednessiness.

ECCM now gets you less jams and lammed for less time! Wooo! Signal distortion amps now give you more jam all round! Buy now and get a free Hornet ECM drone...


I've wanted to discuss this variation on ECM for ages, so let's have at it.
The Newface
Doomheim
#2 - 2015-02-27 17:06:31 UTC
I'm not sure I even agree on that ECM is a problem. But IF it is the fix is not to make ECM useless.
To ne affective at ECM you have to dedicate quite a few modules to the job, if you with a falcon could only jam someone for a few sec ECM would be close to useless for falcons and completely useless for other ships.

What we should look at instead is the meta game.
Counters to ECM, there already are some and I think we should look at making them better,

1. Sensor strength modules - issue with them is that they are only useful if you fighting ECM ships, maybe add a small (cant be to big) additional bonus to these modules as well, +armor/shield or something.
2. Auto targeting missiles - it seems like these would be perfect as a counter to ECM, I know it doesn't work well right now but it should be looked at.
Arla Sarain
#3 - 2015-02-27 17:09:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Arla Sarain
Lucretia DeWinter wrote:

ECM jams a target for X seconds, where X is based on the difference between the attackers ECM value and the defenders Sensor value. ECM can then be further balanced by retaining or increasing the cycle time of ECM modules.


If target Sensor Strength = 40? With the same ECM strength of 10, gives a 25% chance to jam for 5 seconds...

Does not compute?
10-40 =/= 5
40-10 =/= 5.

If you look for the difference, lowest duration is when Sensor strength equals to Jam strength (jam time = 0)

All the modules relating to increasing sensor strength are screwed - you either get jammed frequently by not having them, or you get jammed forever if you do use them.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#4 - 2015-02-27 17:34:40 UTC
i do like the reduced jam cycle time for sure, i definitely think the ships sensor strength should influence the effectiveness, its mad that a griffin can jam just aswell as a scorpion.

would also like too see falloff weaken jam strength incremently rather than a hit or miss chance like turrets, seems a little odd too me, would also like too see being a bit like autocannons , that being mainly falloff based too stop 100km falcon jams..

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Lugh Crow-Slave
#5 - 2015-02-27 17:57:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Here is what i would do to balance out ECM

first i would make it so that you could not gwt 100% jams at most say around 90-95% if your jam was higher than the targets sensor



then give ecm mods a remote sensor strength bonus to the ship it is being applied to. This would act as a sort of stacking penalty


what this would do would remove the usefulness of sticking all your jams on one target and perma jamming it and at the same time make it harder for large groups of ECM ships or ECM groups to function w/o proper communication


so for example (these are not balanced numbers)


say i have an ECM with the power of 10 and a sensor boost of 10% and I want to hit a target with the power of 20


first strike i have a 50/50 shot but it fails

he now has 22 and i try again with a 45.45% chance and fail

target is now up to 24.2 giving me a 41%chance

so on and so forth and it gets to the point where i need to decide to let my failed jams cycle and try again or keep going




now in a fleet of uncoordinated jamers say full ECM widows and they all try to jam the same ship


3 ships with 8 jams they are now giving a target over 240% sensor strength but to keep it simple we will just say 240%

so they succeed on the first pass but now they try to go again and have only 14% chance to land a jam


this would keep ECM useful and require very little added coding and at the same time keep it from letting ECM perma jam ships with overwhelming amounts of ECM and so that t1 frigs can't be perma jamed by one unit

how good/broken does this sound?

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Baali Tekitsu
AQUILA INC
#6 - 2015-02-27 18:03:58 UTC
ECM is fine. People who get falconed forget that there is a whole ship fighting them dedicated exclusively to knock them out, thats fine. Anyone who has done a bit of small gang pvp will confirm that ECM is easy to counter and the ships who can field it very weak most of the time.

RATE LIKE SUBSCRIBE
Lugh Crow-Slave
#7 - 2015-02-27 18:10:14 UTC
Baali Tekitsu wrote:
ECM is fine. People who get falconed forget that there is a whole ship fighting them dedicated exclusively to knock them out, thats fine. Anyone who has done a bit of small gang pvp will confirm that ECM is easy to counter and the ships who can field it very weak most of the time.


this is very true and the second your jams fail you better either be warping out or you are dead however Rise has a vendetta against ecm it seems to the point he has even said he wants to remove it and as a primarily ecm pilot i would hate to see that

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Immortal Chrono Pimpin
Codename-47
Avocado Cartel
#8 - 2015-02-27 19:47:42 UTC
Ecm is chance based and its pretty hard dualboxing a ecm boat without getting killed.
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#9 - 2015-02-27 20:10:42 UTC
Posting in a stealth nerf balance ECM thread.

Lucretia DeWinter wrote:

Current mechanic gives 50% chance to jam for 20 seconds.
Balanced mechanic would give a 50% chance to jam for 10 seconds (including the relative opposed strengths of attacker / defender.)


Lucretia DeWinter wrote:

maybe there should be an upper limit, say 95% to always allow for potential fails


Good job, you are nerfing ECM by 50% effectiveness when you are not guaranteed to jam the target. And a severe nerf if you get your jam strength higher then their sensor strength, because you will jam the target every cycle without fail, as long as you are within your optimal.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
Dangeresque Too
Pistols for Pandas
#10 - 2015-02-27 20:27:19 UTC
Rise just doesn't like Capgu...

But I do kinda like that stacking penalty idea, would reduce the frequency of permajamming with tons of stacked jams. Though having a flight of ecm drones would stack against each other? That might not be the best idea as they are only effective in groups.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#11 - 2015-02-27 20:33:06 UTC
Dangeresque Too wrote:
Rise just doesn't like Capgu...

But I do kinda like that stacking penalty idea, would reduce the frequency of permajamming with tons of stacked jams. Though having a flight of ecm drones would stack against each other? That might not be the best idea as they are only effective in groups.


whats great about this "stacking penalty" is it wouln't be a one size fits all like the current one for most mods but one that is added to the mod or drones attributes.



it could even open up more room in the meta adding weaker ones with less of a sensor boost or stronger ones with a higher sensor boost.

this would add more choice when fitting rather that always meta 4

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Arla Sarain
#12 - 2015-02-28 01:45:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Arla Sarain
Just make it 100% but add the exploration can hacking minigame, where the ECM strength represents the virus strength and sensor strength represent the defenses in the system.

Perhaps not even strict analogy; a simpler one - for the amount of sensor strength there are equal amount of defense nodes. Destroying defense nodes costs 1 of the virus thingy points, which is in strength as much as ECM strength, non replenishable in that hack instance. Destroying the end core costs 1 point as well.

Basically there is 1 click per node with a maximum allowed defense node steps made equal to the ECM strength.

The ECM boat has the option to attempt to find a path devoid of defense nodes. The defendant can use ECM modules to potentially mine field his system with defense nodes and make it more difficult for the ECM boat to progress.

And something that speeds up the process or increase duration for the potential increase in TIME-TO-ECM. ECM boats start fitting tanks to allow survival during the hack period, fewer ECMs fitted, less of a "one boat to rule them all" in small gangs, but when it works, it works 100% and is unforgiving to enemy that allows it to happen.
Atomeon
Tetraktys
The Initiative.
#13 - 2015-02-28 22:22:42 UTC
Lucretia DeWinter wrote:
A simple example: (with arbitrary values for ease of illustration)

Falcon Pilot has ECM strength of 10
Target has Sensor Strength of 20

Current mechanic gives 50% chance to jam for 20 seconds.
Balanced mechanic would give a 50% chance to jam for 10 seconds (including the relative opposed strengths of attacker / defender.)


If this happens and a frigate has 10% to jam a BS will jam it for 2 secs, right? and will lost lock?
WRONG, because the rest of 18s to recycle jammer the BS will try to retarget (lock) the frigate.
Bad idea because the will exploit till it dies.
lmmortalist
lmmortality Associates
#14 - 2015-03-01 16:03:15 UTC
Baali Tekitsu wrote:
ECM is fine. People who get falconed forget that there is a whole ship fighting them dedicated exclusively to knock them out, thats fine.


Do enlighten me, which ship would that be?

Baali Tekitsu wrote:

Anyone who has done a bit of small gang pvp will confirm that ECM is easy to counter and the ships who can field it very weak most of the time.


How do you easily counter ECM in small gangs without counter ecm/damps?

Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:

this is very true and the second your jams fail you better either be warping out or you are dead however Rise has a vendetta against ecm it seems to the point he has even said he wants to remove it and as a primarily ecm pilot i would hate to see that


Blob fights aside, considering that a dedicated ECM ship can permajam few targets from 80-100 km away, how exactly are you going to die?



And this all without even considering the solo pvp aspect.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#15 - 2015-03-01 16:48:33 UTC
lmmortalist wrote:
Baali Tekitsu wrote:
ECM is fine. People who get falconed forget that there is a whole ship fighting them dedicated exclusively to knock them out, thats fine.


Do enlighten me, which ship would that be?

Baali Tekitsu wrote:

Anyone who has done a bit of small gang pvp will confirm that ECM is easy to counter and the ships who can field it very weak most of the time.


How do you easily counter ECM in small gangs without counter ecm/damps?

Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:

this is very true and the second your jams fail you better either be warping out or you are dead however Rise has a vendetta against ecm it seems to the point he has even said he wants to remove it and as a primarily ecm pilot i would hate to see that


Blob fights aside, considering that a dedicated ECM ship can permajam few targets from 80-100 km away, how exactly are you going to die?



And this all without even considering the solo pvp aspect.


It can only perma jam T1 frigs and a few T1 minm cruisers and at the same time a damp ship can do that same thing no matter what ship you are in

how do you counter ECM? fit ECCM or if in a small gang remote eccm one mod makes it near impossible for jams to land any more than that and a rook is a joke

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#16 - 2015-03-01 16:51:06 UTC
lmmortalist wrote:
Baali Tekitsu wrote:
ECM is fine. People who get falconed forget that there is a whole ship fighting them dedicated exclusively to knock them out, thats fine.


Do enlighten me, which ship would that be?


The Falcon?

lmmortalist wrote:

Baali Tekitsu wrote:

Anyone who has done a bit of small gang pvp will confirm that ECM is easy to counter and the ships who can field it very weak most of the time.


How do you easily counter ECM in small gangs without counter ecm/damps?


What is wrong with having to fit damps or ECM to counter ECM. It's not like the damps have to be fit on a bonused hull or anything, just have everyone in your fleet fit 1 damp with a targetting range script and suddenly that falcon cant do anything unless he has a sebo on.
Some other counters include...

Drones
ECCM
Auto Target Missiles
Burn towards the jammer (Yes this makes any jamming ship VERY nervous when you start getting closer)

lmmortalist wrote:

Blob fights aside, considering that a dedicated ECM ship can permajam few targets from 80-100 km away, how exactly are you going to die?

And this all without even considering the solo pvp aspect.


Have you ever flown an ECM boat? Because being able to permajam everything is a joke in itself. This is especially true if the entire fleet is using ECCM. When that happens you feel like a completely useless ship. If you wanted to complain about something why not complain how damps and tracking disruptors perma damp/disrupt you. Personally I find it hilarious when people bring up that solo pvp card because Eve is not meant to be played alone, and a Pilgrim is a much better solo pvp platform then the Falcon ever could be with the exception of going up against missile boats.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
Ben Ishikela
#17 - 2015-03-01 18:32:22 UTC
not bad. but i still like the other suggestions out there way better.

also: ecm needs no nerf.

Ideas are like Seeds. I'd chop fullgrown trees to start a fire.
Kabark
Schilden
#18 - 2015-03-01 19:04:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Kabark
I didn't think there was anything wrong with ECM to begin with. You either set up for perma jams and have a weak tank or use ECM as a supplementary defensive tool. Either way, a Jam boat is still vulnerable to a 2 man fleet.

Don't fight an ECM boat solo, simple as that. The same as you wouldn't solo a Marauder. On the other side, don't take an ECM boat out expecting to solo roam and survive. They are fleet ships they really on logi and dps to be effective. They are pretty balanced in my opinion.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#19 - 2015-03-01 19:57:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Kabark wrote:
I didn't think there was anything wrong with ECM to begin with. You either set up for perma jams and have a weak tank or use ECM as a supplementary defensive tool. Either way, a Jam boat is still vulnerable to a 2 man fleet.

Don't fight an ECM boat solo, simple as that. The same as you wouldn't solo a Marauder. On the other side, don't take an ECM boat out expecting to solo roam and survive. They are fleet ships they really on logi and dps to be effective. They are pretty balanced in my opinion.



But i don't use ECM and it's annoying as hell when its used against me so just take it outRoll

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Kabark
Schilden
#20 - 2015-03-01 20:09:39 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Kabark wrote:
I didn't think there was anything wrong with ECM to begin with. You either set up for perma jams and have a weak tank or use ECM as a supplementary defensive tool. Either way, a Jam boat is still vulnerable to a 2 man fleet.

Don't fight an ECM boat solo, simple as that. The same as you wouldn't solo a Marauder. On the other side, don't take an ECM boat out expecting to solo roam and survive. They are fleet ships they really on logi and dps to be effective. They are pretty balanced in my opinion.



But i don't use ECM and it's annoying as hell when its used against me so just take it outRoll

Lol
There is rumored to be a magical weapon that counters ECM. I believe it is a type of missile launcher. Rumor has it that these missile launcher can fire a special kind of missile that will distinguish between friend or foe and will automatically attack enemies even when perma jammed. Oh if only I could get my hands on these magical missiles, then I would be able to still defend myself whilst being jammed.
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