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[Scylla] Skynet - Removing Fighter Assist

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Jori McKie
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#541 - 2015-02-28 13:24:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Jori McKie
Rroff wrote:
Jori McKie wrote:
Again for all those skynet pilots read this blog and tell me with a straight face that this isn't OP.
http://gorsking.blogspot.de/2015/02/****-skynet.html

Info for all those guys who are thinking POS/station are the problem, they aren't:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5532655#post5532655

Yep, safespots galore.


POS/stations aren't the only problem but they are where the biggest most "game breaking" source of immunity comes from - if your out in space atleast there is a more viable* chance you'll screw up, etc. unlike at a POS where even if you get sloppy you can just press the enter button and up FF. Even a carrier hugging the edge of a fight on grid could cyno out if it looks like something is going to tackle it - there is always going to be some less than ideal balances to it. (Or should we just remove carriers to?)

You are correct i added an "only" to my orignal post

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." - Abrazzar
Greylord Kane
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#542 - 2015-02-28 13:32:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Greylord Kane
Hmmm as a RL Manager if I changed everything people didn't like in our business.... it would be bad. Please stop trying to change things that actually help make the game unique. Yes people use fighter assist, but we also have to put up with crappy little nuets coming into system and this is not favorable as we defend our miners and industrial side of things. I think taking away fighter assist even in carriers /super carriers will end up being a disaster and you'll have more complaints than when you started.

Make pirating and roaming harder if anything. People don't roam with carriers they defend.

That's like taking cannons from a pirate ship...not good

Grey
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#543 - 2015-02-28 13:33:56 UTC
Jori McKie wrote:

You are correct i added an "only" to my orignal post


As an aside the rhetoric in my post wasn't aimed at you more a general response to the topic.
Carrion Crow
Head Like a Hole.
#544 - 2015-02-28 13:41:53 UTC
Response: Keep fighter assist exactly as is but, with minor changes

Rational:


  1. Removing fighter assist destroys a very unique aspect of group team play
  2. Fighters are not drones, they are manned ships. They SHOULD have the ability to be sent to support combat away from the carrier



Tweaks to avoid OP

We've actually fought against a group using these "OP" tactics in their home system twice and had our ass kicked

TBH we diddnt feel it was OP or felt the need to nerf their tactics - we just avoided fighting them in that system.

However, if there is data to support that this is a major eve-wide issue ( which I really don't think it is ) all that is needed is:


  1. More realism added to fighters - they should be warp scramble-able ( I believe they are already affected by bubbles )
  2. The ability to force them off grid as per a previous post ( e.g. at 25% shields each fighter pilot will attempt to leave grid )


However, I don't think any of these changes are worth the effort involved for the impact they will make.

CCP - the changes of the last year or so have been amazing, please keep up the good work and ensure that all changes contribute to diversity of game play as opposed to removing something which adds to both story-line, content creation and team play.
Alexander McKeon
Perkone
Caldari State
#545 - 2015-02-28 13:43:19 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
We know that in some circumstances it can be frustrating to have your fighters warp off grid to chase a target when you would rather have them move to another target on grid with you instead.
CCP Rise, if you don't want your fighters to warp off-grid, all you need to do is uncheck the little 'attack and follow' box and they won't. Problem solved, zero development work required.

Removing the ability of fighters & bombers to warp in the absence of fighter assist wouldn't give any real benefit, and would prevent aligned supercapitals from warping off without de-fanging themselves (insert mandatory death2allsupers comment) which would have genuine implications for their usability. Giving them warp drives also prevents issues where fighters can be kited off-grid (CCP doesn't like talking about grid-fu, but you know about it) and rendered ineffective. Having your Fibos warp back after killing an SBU 210km away is also a rather nice quality-of-life issue, as is the option to have your fighters engage fleeing targets.

PS: This will address the problem of skynet carriers putting up a POS shield as a defensive maneuver from an offline stick, but could we please get a restriction on lighting cynos within the bubble radius of an anchored/online control tower one of these days to prevent super-safe capital movements? That shield trick is annoying as hell.
Blind Myst
3 MOPOCEHKA
#546 - 2015-02-28 13:47:45 UTC
I tell You what I think: the most stupidiest and the most easiest way for You as game developers is to make some stupid rebalance things thst kill the spirit of EVE-online and do it like: "Hi guys! Look we make a super change in game! We haven't done anything at all GOOD and SMART but we what You to think about us like we've done this!".

What Do You want to do with Ishtars nerf it once again? Why? Because new players won't be able to fly on it for a several months and they would get out from EVE and You loose Your profits? And You afraid of losing Your money! That's true You lose Your profits and people who rules CCP lose their bonuses. That's why You do everything in the past 2 years to make the EVE fast-entering game, the game for stupid instead of the game for smart!

If You really want to nerf Ishtar make it slower not cut one of his main efforts. I use Ishtar as support ship for tengu to farm lvl5 agents. It is critical for me that it has 10% bonus to damage and drone BSs die of 3 shots. What should I do when You nerf both Ishtar and tengus?! I can farm now several missions without rewarp because of tank with dps from ishtars and tank by shiled from Tengu. After Your "super" rebalance I will need to change the whole tactics of the mission runing or pass them with rewarps and the time will rise to 6 - 15 minutes for 1 mission from 2-4 minutes.

I need Tengu's extreme shield amount and resists to fight throug matars missions and even now it is very hard to do that with 10% bonus to shileds! How should I earn ISK if I won't be able to farm missions on tengu any more?!

There are a lot of people who think the same way as I do.

If You really really have nothing to do and nothing to think about and the only business You've got is to cry: "Give me something to rebalance right now!!!! I need this!!! My children need a wine!! My wife doesn't gives me sex until I rebalance something!!!! So please...." then play with the speed and the signature of the ship. Don't play with the main features of the ship. Ishtars could be strong but slow and that would break some stupid tactics of stupid over blob. I know what I am talking about cause I fly Ishtars in both PVP and PVE. PVP is not the ony use of Ishtars.

To the nubes who plays eve: I was nube too and I also was kicked-assed by the more experienced players. LEARN!!!! DON'T YOU CRY!!!! THAT's EVE!!!
Dean Dewitt
Universal Force Army
Neutral Lands Association
#547 - 2015-02-28 14:21:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Dean Dewitt
Hi,

I use fighter assist, I'm pretty sure some people who answered to this post don't use it, they are just the victim. I saw some people use assist fighter without having their carrier or mothership on the grid. We shot the fighters but the owner just call them back. The problem isn't that people are using the assist of their fighter, the problem is fighter CAN'T be destroyed, they should be pointable, we consider them as pilot and not drones. So don't remove them the ability to warp, don't remove the assist. If you remove the assist, there won't be any capitals anymore or just archons and may be chimera. Why would I use a mothership if I use it once every year? Carriers were used to bring ships in 0.0, they can't jump as far as they could, and you can't just every second with the jump fatigue. Now you want to remove the ability to assign fighters? I'll sell my carrier if this is going to happen, and won't skill for more.

Or just remove the assist for frigs and destroyers. May be put a timer to the carrier or mothership that prevent him to go inside the POS.
Maybe remove the ability to a carrier to move as long as there are fighters outside the drone bay like the triage module. You put it that way, with a timer like 10 min and you won't have the skynet issue
Labadiena
Risky swarm
#548 - 2015-02-28 14:24:49 UTC
Guys, CCP, please boost DPS from motherships and titans (x10 mb vs capitals and supercapitals, arround 150k DPS need). Or start thinking about t2 supercapitals.
Warping fighters and fighter bombers please hold.
Candy balls — корпорация приглашает для хотдропов пилотов: Блэкопсов, ХД, Триажных Архонов. По поводу вступления заходите в игре на канал Fire in the hall
Dograzor
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#549 - 2015-02-28 14:27:43 UTC
I'm ok with the removal of the assist, it feels broken in risk v.s. reward.

However please keep the fighter warp as leaving expensive fighters on a field because you had to warp your capital feels wrong.
raging star
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#550 - 2015-02-28 14:57:46 UTC
Suitonia wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:


Now expalin to us all how well that works when the fighters don't get bonuses from the carrier/mods/carrier pilot?

Which is the entire point. CCP made some not so smart buffs to fighters, that went haywire and the 'fix' is to remove the mechanic that was around before the problem but not the actual things that caused the problem?

That doesn't make any damn sense.


CCP Rise and CCP Fozzie are part of the game design team and are not programmers. The Fighter Assist code has likely not been touched in over 10 years when it was put out in the Red Moon Rising expansion in 2006. There are several bugs in the fighter assist code and since CCP has a problem with applying/deapplying skills/bonuses from other grids in the past (See OGB) and the Brain-In-A-Box project, it would probably take incredible amount of time from the development team to get these bugs fixed. At which point, fighter assist will go back to being a marginalized and rarely used mechanic, of which CCP would have now spent hundreds of development hours on.



I don't want to here this.
- ccp has promise to improse POS and sov, nothing yet
- like someone mention already, i am "happy" with my connect the dot PI bs. Evil

I think that the way we interact with POS structures is the main issue so why not "fix" POS or s****d them up more and stop messing with my carrier, it already got castrated once already with your jump range solution .
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#551 - 2015-02-28 15:01:54 UTC
How on earth has this garbage topic remained at the top? Just how many afk pvpers and botting ratters are there in this game?
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#552 - 2015-02-28 15:05:17 UTC
Labadiena wrote:
Guys, CCP, please boost DPS from motherships and titans (x10 mb vs capitals and supercapitals, arround 150k DPS need). Or start thinking about t2 supercapitals.
Warping fighters and fighter bombers please hold.


Oh yes, let's please make another pointless diversion for the coalitions to strive for in the unending onemanupship they must endure to remain at the peak of the game. T2 supercapitals FEH why not reduce supercap hp by 10% first and see how that works out. Titans can probably be left as is for now because they're more of a liability than an asset for most people anyway.
ShtirliZZ
H0LE-DR0P
#553 - 2015-02-28 15:14:55 UTC
Don't remove Fighter warp
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#554 - 2015-02-28 15:16:27 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Death to all capitals

This.
Durep
Lunar Labs
Domain Research and Mining Inst.
#555 - 2015-02-28 15:26:20 UTC
Don't remove fighter assists
SCV'Argos
TheMurk
#556 - 2015-02-28 15:35:07 UTC
Just don't remove fighter assist. It's a unique gameplay.

For example you made scanning probes automatically return to its user instead of getting lost, and that destroyed the unique w-space scenarios with lost pilots trying to get out of there with talking skills in local, cat-n-mouse hunts, ransoming and betrayals. That was an awful change.

And now again you want to delete a unique gameplay by removing fighter assist. Terrible idea.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#557 - 2015-02-28 15:36:19 UTC
Ncc 1709 wrote:
a simple fix to fighters is that they should return to base upon 50% shield damage for repairs.
once they have returned to base they need to rest and change their pants which takes them 5 mins of combat fatigue.



oooooh I like that. Now that is a cool idea if I ever saw one.
Ajunta Thor
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#558 - 2015-02-28 15:54:11 UTC
I don't mind removal of fighter assigning to be honest. Never personally used it much.

Fighters should be allowed to warp though and they should be left exactly like they are now in that regard. Whether its fighters chasing targets or simply following the carrier in warp. That is a very unique part of the game and of using Carriers/Supers. IT results in some interesting game play where pilots have to make sure their fighters aren't chasing people of grid and die or simply giving them the ability to kill someone who wasn't paying attention as they warped.

The idea of them being made point/scram-able would add another interesting dynamic as well.
Striker 579
Nova Frontiers
#559 - 2015-02-28 15:56:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Striker 579
I think fighter assist is a really cool thing in the game so to balance you could make fighters require bandwidth from the ship its
assigned too so like each fighter will require 25 Mbit/sec you will need a ship with minimum of 25 Mbit/sec to receive 1 fighter.
so only large ships can put out 5 fighters not shuttles.

If that wont work I would say at least keep that fighters will warp with the carrier.
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#560 - 2015-02-28 16:11:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
How on earth has this garbage topic remained at the top? Just how many afk pvpers and botting ratters are there in this game?

It's a sticky you blathering idiot, of course it's at the top.

Also it's a fairly big deal for a lot of people.

I for example use fighters only for ratting (directly controlled by the carrier, so assign change does not effect me) and on grid support for my slowcat, so this change does not effect my PvP, but the warp changes do mean that I am forced to recall fighters 100km+ between each PvE site.

That in turn takes the time it takes for me to run a site from around 7 minutes to 9, dropping my isk per hour by a good 50-60 mil/hour.

If you want to look at "botting ratters", go look at AFKtars, not carriers.