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[Scylla] Skynet - Removing Fighter Assist

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Author
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#321 - 2015-02-27 20:45:25 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
CCP Rise wrote:
This change being largely driven by 'skynetting' which is a tactic where carriers and super carriers can sit in near perfect safety at the edge of starbase shields and assign thousands of DPS worth of fighter drones to their fleet mates who can fly whatever ship they want *), while wielding an enormous amount of damage. We feel this is not meeting our standards for risk vs reward and therefor would like to remove the ability to assist fighters. More details are covered in this dev blog.

*) *snip* Posting of kill reports outside of the Crime & Punishment forum channel is prohibited. ISD Ezwal.

How about you just make it so you can't assist fighters if you're within 10km (or more) of a POS shield?

Quote:
A particular point of feedback that we are interested in surrounds the ability of fighters to warp. We know that in some circumstances it can be frustrating to have your fighters warp off grid to chase a target when you would rather have them move to another target on grid with you instead. We also know that fighter warping is unique and provides some interesting gameplay in some scenarios. Would you prefer that we removed the ability for fighters to warp or that we left warping in, despite the absence of assist?

Er, you do know you can turn fighter warping *off*, right? It's not 2008 anymore.
Solairen
Matsuko Holding
#322 - 2015-02-27 20:47:54 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
CCP Rise wrote:
As announced last night on the o7 show, we have a list of high-impact balance changes planned for Scylla.

This thread is for discussing the proposed removal of fighter assist for carriers and super carriers.

This change being largely driven by 'skynetting' which is a tactic where carriers and super carriers can sit in near perfect safety at the edge of starbase shields and assign thousands of DPS worth of fighter drones to their fleet mates who can fly whatever ship they want *), while wielding an enormous amount of damage. We feel this is not meeting our standards for risk vs reward and therefor would like to remove the ability to assist fighters. More details are covered in this dev blog.

A particular point of feedback that we are interested in surrounds the ability of fighters to warp. We know that in some circumstances it can be frustrating to have your fighters warp off grid to chase a target when you would rather have them move to another target on grid with you instead. We also know that fighter warping is unique and provides some interesting gameplay in some scenarios. Would you prefer that we removed the ability for fighters to warp or that we left warping in, despite the absence of assist?

Look forward to your feedback.

*) *snip* Posting of kill reports outside of the Crime & Punishment forum channel is prohibited. ISD Ezwal.


At least in terms of Gate Camp use of Skynet, you could solve it by just preventing warping off grid. If carriers could still offer assist but it was on grid only then the carrier has to be at risk unless the fight in on the POS anyways.

I understand that reclaiming fighters is quite a bit more expensive than drone left behind when you make a quick exit. So if warp was replaced some something of an emergency recall (I.e. they warp to carrier and dock immediately) then it might still work. That would prevent other from getting screwed by removal of the fighters warp.
B33R
Shadow State
Goonswarm Federation
#323 - 2015-02-27 20:48:16 UTC
removing the fighter and fighter-bomber assist will reduce a lot of the "skynet" problems. The warp is the unique attribute for fighters we should keep. why? cost of the fighter. if you remove warp, make them a lot cheaper and smaller in size.
ScorpionD III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#324 - 2015-02-27 20:59:48 UTC
Admiral Whatever wrote:
ScorpionD III wrote:
Somethings in eve are just no sense.

Why remove the assist mecanic?

Risk x Reward not good enough?

But who says it have to be?


So Darkness is where all the CRABS from Xdeath went????

Interesting.


I don't get the point.

I can't talk for my alliance.
I don't know who or what are this Xdeath.

So, if you are trying to be sarcastic, sorry, but don't have worked.

And maybe, just maybe your, commentary are off topic, and in this case i think the better is stay silent.
Martin Svendssen
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#325 - 2015-02-27 21:02:39 UTC
I think Nerfing the Carrier will be a huge mistake. The Fighters that can warp, is Unique Feature.
All the months of training, should give some rewards, to the Owner of the Ship, and this is one of them. Removing it would be a punishing all Carrier Pilots. This is Bad.


I Personally think this is a bad direction.

Why is it that all the Nerfing is happening in more or less Low/Null, i mean the Jump Fatique, now also the Fighters from the Carrier should be Nerfed? Do not make sense.

Let the Carrier Pilots keep there Warping Fighters, please.
Senor Shifty
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#326 - 2015-02-27 21:04:01 UTC
So the new seeker NPCs can follow you in warp but your fighters cant follow players? nope

I understand the thought process but let them follow in warp!

assigning while on grid will fix the safe carrier issue!
raging star
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#327 - 2015-02-27 21:12:11 UTC
I suggest not removing fighter assist, not being able to do the assist fighter drones within range of the pos shield would be a better move
w1ndstrike
White Talon Holdings
#328 - 2015-02-27 21:12:38 UTC
keep fighter warping with the carrier, remove following a target in warp.

fighters are expensive and it would be nice not to lose an entire flight from an FC warping a fleet off the field prematurely.


that said, you NEED to do something to make carriers and dreads an attractive training goal again. right now there is very little reason to train for or fly one except as a personal suitcase.
Solairen
Matsuko Holding
#329 - 2015-02-27 21:13:58 UTC
Senor Shifty wrote:
So the new seeker NPCs can follow you in warp but your fighters cant follow players? nope

I understand the thought process but let them follow in warp!

assigning while on grid will fix the safe carrier issue!


Honest question here, how would you feel about changing that from "let them follow in warp" to "MAKE them follow in warp" ?

You still get the benefit of warping fighters that follow you, but you can't drop fighters, assist them, then warp yourself off to the safety of a POS. (Because the fighters are forced to warp after you).

If that kind of change was made you wouldn't have to remove the assist any more either (since it would force fighters to remain on grid with the carrier, without forcing the pilot to dock them every time).
Insidious
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#330 - 2015-02-27 21:14:01 UTC
hey ccp heres a good idea "drone modules"......... wondering why ishtars and skynetting is so over powered now? solution nerf the modules and create a smaller medium class of sentries for ishtars... skynet isnt a tactic ive ever used, but out right banning it, is a bit harsh

but it is kind of funny
Brylan Grey
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#331 - 2015-02-27 21:14:28 UTC
Keep fighter warp.

Allow fighters to only assist fleet mates that are on-grid with the carrier.

If the fleet mate leaves the grid, the fighters stop assisting.
Vendettus
Make-EVE-Great-Again
NO NEED LOOSE FACE
#332 - 2015-02-27 21:17:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Vendettus
even though i only did solo/small scale pvp in eve so far and hence my view on the topic might be a bit limited but from my experience rebalancing some drone mechanics would be a healthy change for the game.

fighter assist:
as it works now its a mechanic which almost doesnt scale with piloting skill at all, you can easily get a thanatos to the point where ur fighters move faster then 5k ms while having more then 3k dps in total and unless your ship/fleet is able to tank the dps you will have to retreat, its pretty much a hard counter to every kiting approach, capital sized drones shouldnt be able to deal so easy with frigates/destroyers/cruisers.
on top of that fighter assist also scales way to good with having links/snakes, everyone who encountered linked and snaked interceptors or garmurs will know what i mean, very hard to kill on their own but with 1k+ dps assisted absolutely terrifying.

fighter following in warp:
you have to re enter or leave the system to get rid of the fighters and to continue playing, its doesnt secure a kill its simply annoying, maybe reduce it to the point where fighters can warp back to a carrier but not follow other targets in warp?

removing drone assist entirely:
this would certainly lead to a situation where large/med scale players would be forced to develop more decent piloting skills with drone interaction and situational awareness in order to work efficiently as a fleet.
the worst thing about drone assist from my perspective is something else though, any form of camp with a sensor boosted ship which has drones asigned to it is way more efficient then it should be.

maybe you could consider something else about drone assist as well:
if you assist your drones to a ship, the drones have their normal lock time + your ships lock time on a target.
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#333 - 2015-02-27 21:25:25 UTC
I don't really care that fighters follow targets in warp. I've never been in a situation where this was actually that helpful.

I don't see why you want to remove it though, but if you must, fine.

What I'm pretty sure is completely unnecessary is removing the ability for fighters to warp after their parent carrier.
Rune Scorpio
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#334 - 2015-02-27 21:25:42 UTC
Fighter assist is an important mechanic to carriers/supers. Removing that will make them unused by a large number of people that currently do. Just make it so people cant hug a POS and assign them.
Please stop removing good features and just fix the cheesy aspects instead.
Shun Makoto
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#335 - 2015-02-27 21:26:03 UTC
Create a limitation on how close to a POS a Carrier can be and apply fighter assist.

I don't see the need of removing fighter assist completely. It hampers tactical options of FCs.

Kaalakiota-Kaatso Taokeruu Kaltiovon ArK. (Kalaakiota Business Research Corporation)

Head of Security

...................................

Kaalakiota Corporation

Patriot Faction

Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#336 - 2015-02-27 21:27:33 UTC
omfg is rise even serious "it can be frustrating to have your fighters warp off grid"
Yeah, that's why we have the option to turn this **** off.
Come on, man. If you're going to be making balance changes to the game, you should at least understand the ******* mechanics that you're working on.
Solairen
Matsuko Holding
#337 - 2015-02-27 21:31:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Solairen
Primary This Rifter wrote:
I don't really care that fighters follow targets in warp. I've never been in a situation where this was actually that helpful.

I don't see why you want to remove it though, but if you must, fine.

What I'm pretty sure is completely unnecessary is removing the ability for fighters to warp after their parent carrier.


Generally problem isn't figthers following a target in warp, it's them being assisted away, and then following the assisted ship into warp. Allowing you to park a carrier on the edge of a POS, while another ship uses the entire DPS of that carrier of grid for a gate camp, or ratting, or whatever. With 0 risk to the carrier and massive bonus for the more expendable ship.

CCP is saying this problem can be fixed by EITHER removing the fighter assist (the current planned change) OR by removing fighter warp (offer to community to decide between the two).


Personally i think the community has some better options for fixing the issue. Some suggested removing ability to assist next to a POS. Other make fighters warp, but only to the grid the carrier is on. Similar suggestion, only allow assist of fighters while on grid. To me these are all better suggestions than removing a feature.
Komodo Askold
Strategic Exploration and Development Corp
Silent Company
#338 - 2015-02-27 21:33:07 UTC
I can't speak for the drone assist thing. However, I do can provide an idea for the whole "warp or not warp" thing.

In fact I think it is a very simple solution: just add a checkbox on the "Drone Options" menu which forces your fighter(bomber)s to warp or not to warp after their targets. Something like:

[Checkbox] Fighters pursue targets into warp

Hope this helps.
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#339 - 2015-02-27 21:33:50 UTC
Solairen wrote:
Primary This Rifter wrote:
I don't really care that fighters follow targets in warp. I've never been in a situation where this was actually that helpful.

I don't see why you want to remove it though, but if you must, fine.

What I'm pretty sure is completely unnecessary is removing the ability for fighters to warp after their parent carrier.


Generally problem isn't figthers following a target in warp, it's them being assisted away, and then following the assisted ship into warp. Allowing you to park a carrier on the edge of a POS, while another ship uses the entire DPS of that carrier of grid for a gate camp, or ratting, or whatever. With 0 risk to the carrier and massive bonus for the more expendable ship.

CCP is saying this problem can be fixed by EITHER removing the fighter assist (the current planned change) OR by removing fighter warp (offer to community to decide between the two).

No, you misread the devblog.
Svarii
Acclimatization
#340 - 2015-02-27 21:34:35 UTC
If you MUST, fine. Take away assist. But don't take away their warp drive...