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[Scylla] Bouncer Sentry Drone Optimal and Falloff

First post
Author
Chance Ravinne
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
WiNGSPAN Delivery Network
#21 - 2015-02-26 19:57:55 UTC
Phoenix Jones wrote:
Or just make some absolute distinctions between sentries and heavy drones.

Ishtar and navy vexor, bandwidth down to 100.
Ishtar dronebay down to 225.

Heavy drones bandwidth changed from 25 to 20.

Ishtar and navy vexor loses 20% of its dps potential when using sentry drones. Keeps all of its dps when using heavies.

Ishtar no longer can have a dronebay the size of a battleship (dronebay the size of the prophecy).

Half the problems fixed right there.


This sounds like a more reasonable approach to me, though it would certainly impact more ships. For instance, any ship with 40m3 can now field two heavies.

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Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#22 - 2015-02-26 20:25:42 UTC
Reagalan
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#23 - 2015-02-26 20:25:48 UTC
This isn't nearly a big enough change.
Komodo Askold
Strategic Exploration and Development Corp
Silent Company
#24 - 2015-02-26 20:32:29 UTC
Thank you for showing your interest on the issue with sentry drones and their ships. Again, better have numerous small changes than one single big change with the risk of breaking something else elsewhere. Looking forward to more information.
NSA Bivas
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2015-02-26 20:50:09 UTC
ImageQuest
Standings Consortium
#26 - 2015-02-26 22:13:42 UTC
On the similiar note...Dominix would do well with half of its high slots. Since they have no guns anymore their high slots are used mostly for neuts...deadzoning close proximity and killing doctrines like ahacs.
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#27 - 2015-02-26 22:54:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Phoenix Jones
Chance Ravinne wrote:
Phoenix Jones wrote:
Or just make some absolute distinctions between sentries and heavy drones.

Ishtar and navy vexor, bandwidth down to 100.
Ishtar dronebay down to 225.

Heavy drones bandwidth changed from 25 to 20.

Ishtar and navy vexor loses 20% of its dps potential when using sentry drones. Keeps all of its dps when using heavies.

Ishtar no longer can have a dronebay the size of a battleship (dronebay the size of the prophecy).

Half the problems fixed right there.


This sounds like a more reasonable approach to me, though it would certainly impact more ships. For instance, any ship with 40m3 can now field two heavies.


Ships with 50 bandwidth can currently field two heavies. I dont remember the last time I saw a thorax, arbitrator, or any ship with that bandwidth fielding 2 heavy drones and not 5 medium drones. You lose out on mobility and tracking with heavies vs others. Unbounused those things are slow.

Yaay!!!!

Jennifer Maxwell
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
#28 - 2015-02-26 23:01:18 UTC
Feodor Romanov wrote:
This changes will not change anything really. The problem of centry drones is in tracking.
But not only the sentry drones is the problem. All Gallente droneboats is the most preferable ships in their class: Tristan. Algos, Vexor, Navy Vexor, Ishtar. Main reasons:
- can use any tank: shield, armor, hull;
- kite effectively or use thick tank;
- great possibilities for fitting
- any damage type
- best E-war protection

I have some thoughts what to do with them.
1. Restrict ship bonuses by thermal damage type. They can still use any drones they want but much less effective.
2. Devide ship doubled drones bonuses. For example: ships can have 10% to drones damage OR to drones HP; bonus 7,5% to drones max velocity or to tracking speed. Like all other ships have.

You bring up a very good point.

Why AREN'T Gallente ballanced towards one type of damage? Gallente are blaster boats, so that's kinetic and thermal. Caldari are blaster boats, kinetic and thermal. But the majority of Caldari ships that are missile, are also restricted to having bonuses for kinetic. The minority of Gallente ships are thus restricted; only the Gallente cov ops frigate come to mind.

Why is there an exception?
Daide Vondrichnov
French Drop-O-Panache
Snuffed Out
#29 - 2015-02-26 23:02:30 UTC
Phoenix Jones wrote:
Chance Ravinne wrote:
Phoenix Jones wrote:
Or just make some absolute distinctions between sentries and heavy drones.

Ishtar and navy vexor, bandwidth down to 100.
Ishtar dronebay down to 225.

Heavy drones bandwidth changed from 25 to 20.

Ishtar and navy vexor loses 20% of its dps potential when using sentry drones. Keeps all of its dps when using heavies.

Ishtar no longer can have a dronebay the size of a battleship (dronebay the size of the prophecy).

Half the problems fixed right there.


This sounds like a more reasonable approach to me, though it would certainly impact more ships. For instance, any ship with 40m3 can now field two heavies.


Ships with 50 bandwidth can currently field two heavies. I dont remember the last time I saw a thorax, arbitrator, or any ship with that bandwidth. You lose out on mobility and tracking with heavies vs others. Unbounused those things are slow.


you lose dps aswel, 5 medium are better than 2 heavies, more dps, better application etc...
Ghaustyl Kathix
Rising Thunder
#30 - 2015-02-27 00:12:40 UTC
Reagalan wrote:
This isn't nearly a big enough change.


CCP Fozzie wrote:
There are a number of balance issues that are being looked at surrounding Sentry Drones and the ships that use them, and more info on that will be revealed later. However one smaller tweak that I can announce now is that we are shifting some of the base optimal range on Bouncer sentry drones over to falloff.

There's more coming.


Anthar Thebess wrote:
2. adjust hvy drone bandwidth to 20mb
That affects many more ships than just the Ishtar. Suddenly the Myrmidon, for example, can field a full set of heavies. It would take more work than it seems to balance the drone ships again.
Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2015-02-27 00:52:15 UTC
Ghaustyl Kathix wrote:
Anthar Thebess wrote:
2. adjust hvy drone bandwidth to 20mb
That affects many more ships than just the Ishtar. Suddenly the Myrmidon, for example, can field a full set of heavies. It would take more work than it seems to balance the drone ships again.

Ahh those were the good old days :(

And no, limiting Gal to just Therm Damage Drones is just lame.
Every race has a pro and con to their weapon systems. Lasers have the fast reload. Missiles and Projectiles use no cap and have selectable damage.

Dronee/Boats need some balance work done, that's for sure, but taking Gal down to single damage type isn't it. Nor is nerfing them all across the board.

The end of the day, the issue is Sentries, and the Ishtar. Navy Vexor is strong, but expensive, without high resists, and you aren't going to see them take over after any Ishtar Nerf.

As for the HP vs Damage bonuses.. Gotta remember, Drones are the only system where you can disarm a ship. On Drone-based ships HP can be very important.. unless you are going to let us replenish drones from Cargo just like you can with Ammo. Without the need to dock/use a depot/etc.
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#32 - 2015-02-27 03:34:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Phoenix Jones
Taking heavies Down to 20 bandwidth affects the vexor and prophecy (they would both have a different optimal load out, but would suffer with applied dps from the slower heavies). It affects the proteus, stratios, and myrmidon as they all get the option of fielding 5 heavies, but also suffer from the issue of applied damage (droneboat proteus and myrmidon are not widely used fleet comps in regards to how the Ishtar is currently).

most people will continue to use mediums unless against a battleship, where heavies would be a better option. Neither are situations that are presently unbalanced or an issue currently.

Yaay!!!!

Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#33 - 2015-02-27 05:54:40 UTC
Bouncer nerf misses the point. So does the announced Ishtar nerf of reducing the damage bonus.

Tracking is the problem. Sentries are a BS sized weapon systems. They should not be able to track frigates and cruisers at close range. Sub-BS hulls should not get tracking bonuses to them. With their native high tracking, PLUS the tracking bonus on many ship hulls, sentry drones can apply their BS sized DPS to medium sized or smaller ships, and do it without need for webs or target painters. This should not be possible.

Drones already offer the flexibility of being able to swap weapon class at will. No other weapon system can do this; it's part of their design and their key advantage. By carrying a stock of Light drones in their hold, even a BS can engage frigate sized targets. However, by changing your weapon class, you also change your DPS class. A Dominix using Light Drones is doing a fraction of it's DPS potential; this is a worthwhile tradeoff to hit small targets that would be able to speed tank you otherwise. Sentries don't need to make that tradeoff; that's why they are OP. Putting tracking bonuses on drone boats was a mistake that should never have been made; it sabotages the entire design philosophy of drones.

Without the tracking bonuses, sentries are no more powerful then equivalent BS guns. This is how it should be. Be able to down-class at will to engage a smaller target is already a huge advantage.
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#34 - 2015-02-27 06:01:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Ines Tegator
Anthar Thebess wrote:
2. adjust hvy drone bandwidth to 20mb
Quote:
That affects many more ships than just the Ishtar. Suddenly the Myrmidon, for example, can field a full set of heavies. It would take more work than it seems to balance the drone ships again.


Considering how crap heavy drones are (mostly their speed and ease of killing them, and lack of instant dps application), I'm ok with that. Right now, there is no reason I would ever use a heavy drone. This change would give them their niche.

Also, drone bay should be a balance factor considered here. A VNI for example can only carry one flight of heavies/sentries, plus a a handful of backup drones or a smaller flight, but not both. Shooting them down to disable their DPS is a viable strategy. The Ishtar, on the other hand, is a different matter with its 375 m3 drone bay - that's three full sets of heavies to shoot through.
Swanky nutjob
Holding Inc.
#35 - 2015-02-27 06:07:00 UTC
Faife wrote:
Swanky nutjob wrote:
Tracking is the problem, not optimal.

Rise and Fozzie, killing off 0.0 by one poorly thought out balance change, one after another.


I can see how you read that first post and thought that the minor falloff/optimal tweak was the only change that's coming in Scylla and nothing else was being changed.

Emphasis on "you".


The damage bonus changes nothing.
Aiyshimin
Shiva Furnace
#36 - 2015-02-27 07:55:33 UTC
Ines Tegator wrote:
Bouncer nerf misses the point. So does the announced Ishtar nerf of reducing the damage bonus.

Tracking is the problem. Sentries are a BS sized weapon systems. They should not be able to track frigates and cruisers at close range.


Correct, they shouldn't, and they don't.
Swanky nutjob
Holding Inc.
#37 - 2015-02-27 10:24:45 UTC
That is true but they're pretty good at all other ranges. THere is after all a reason why people abuse the **** out of Bouncers and Curators.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2015-02-27 10:27:54 UTC
Aiyshimin wrote:
Ines Tegator wrote:
Bouncer nerf misses the point. So does the announced Ishtar nerf of reducing the damage bonus.

Tracking is the problem. Sentries are a BS sized weapon systems. They should not be able to track frigates and cruisers at close range.


Correct, they shouldn't, and they don't.


Thank god the ishtars can't just dump the drones and run. Phew!


Oh.


Wait.
Grytok
KL0NKRIEGER
#39 - 2015-02-27 13:34:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Grytok
Sentries do not need fixing. Simply remove the dreaded drone-assist and the Drone Damage Amp modules, which fixes all kinds of drone-related problems.
Panther X
Destructive Influence
Northern Coalition.
#40 - 2015-02-27 14:44:51 UTC
Altirius Saldiaro wrote:
Just make EWAR that hits a ship, affect that ship's drones.

Tracking Disruption
Sensor Dampening
ECM

Why is it that I can EWAR an Ishtar, but that Ishtar continues to provide bonuses to it's drones from it's fitted modules?

At the very least, make it so that certain EWAR affects the bonuses provided by Drone Upgrade modules.

EWAR is an already in-game counter weapon. Instead of nerfing ships and drones, give us the ability to use already in-game tools so that we can counter them ourselves.


You forgot that Ewar is still broken. It's time to fix it so that ECM freaking works. But yes that is a good idea.

My Titan smells of rich Corinthian Leather...