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[Scylla] Bouncer Sentry Drone Optimal and Falloff

First post
Josef Djugashvilis
#61 - 2015-03-04 18:37:45 UTC
I had kind of hoped that after messing around with drones for the best part of two years, CCP might leave them alone for a while.

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Hell's Death Squad
#62 - 2015-03-07 18:55:17 UTC
Grytok wrote:
Sentries do not need fixing. Simply remove the dreaded drone-assist and the Drone Damage Amp modules, which fixes all kinds of drone-related problems.

Ya that's the way to balance everything, remove features. /sarcasm.

Seriously? I'm not even a drone focused character, nor do I even use the ishtar as much I did before it was buffed. (I used the Ishtar back in the day. But right now my "personal" flavor of the month has been T3s. For quite a long time.

Anyways, we need the additional modules. Drone damage amps, etc. Removing those will not fix the issues. It will create more. Drones finally have nearly all the modules that other weapon systems have. Now they just need another look in terms of balance. Well not drones in their entirety. Just sentries to be honest. As they are honestly OP.

How do you fix it? To be honest I'd say nerf the tracking on them. I agree they can hit all manner of targets at rather insane ranges. So being able to track AND do damage with such "precision" is rather insane. So to fix that, nerf their tracking. You "could" also nerf their damage. But to be honest, we should start small. Nerf the tracking, see how it pans out. If they are still OP, revisit their damage.

We don't need the types of nerfs we used to get. Aka Drake, Hurricane, etc. Where nerfing something didn't mean balancing. It meant making it absolutely freaking useless for ANY application. CCP seems to be finally doing away with "mentality" so let's not return to it. (Well besides skynet but considering I'm NO EXPECT by any means in that department, I won't even comment on it.)
Hell's Death Squad
#63 - 2015-03-07 19:05:55 UTC
Tanasus wrote:
Nip / Tuck
Lately, most important of all is what it will cut CCP.........eveonline increasingly begins to resemble some of the Facebook game.
Some ships already have them as an article on Market, Ishtar will follow their Destiny. Keep balance ... success

I seriously don't even know how to to respond to this comment. EVe is increasingly becoming some of the facebook games? How on earth do you figure?

Please for god sakes, ELABORATE! Or just don't post. Either way we will all at the very least not lose brain cells trying to analyze your post.
Shandra Manaya
Prision Break Inc.
#64 - 2015-03-09 23:45:14 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hello everyone. We are updating Singularity as we speak with the first testing versions of our Scylla release coming immediately after Fanfest.

If you've been watching CCP Rise's tweets, you already know that we have some important balance changes in the works and that more info will be coming this week.

I'm making threads right now for two of the sets of changes coming in Scylla, and for details of the rest you should watch the o7 show tonight at 20:00 EVE Time and keep your eyes peeled for a Dev Blog that will drop in the coming days. I'm making threads for this subset of the planned changes today because these are the ones that are already running in today's SISI update.

There are a number of balance issues that are being looked at surrounding Sentry Drones and the ships that use them, and more info on that will be revealed later. However one smaller tweak that I can announce now is that we are shifting some of the base optimal range on Bouncer sentry drones over to falloff.

The change removes 5km of base optimal for T1 Bouncers (6km for T2 and Navy) and adds the same value to falloff.

These are not the only balance changes coming in Scylla. All the details on those changes will be released in an upcoming dev blog.

So now instead of ishtars killing just whit sentry drones now that ship will start to kill whith every drone nice :)
Mehrune Khan
Amarr Empire
#65 - 2015-03-11 17:01:57 UTC
I liked the idea of making heavy drones 20m3 and 20 bandwidth, and then maybe nerfing the Ishtar and Vexor Navy Issue to 100 bandwidth each. It lets them both field 5 heavies but limits them to 4 sentries, which would make the Dominix the premier sentry drone ship. It also lets the Myrmidon field 5 heavy drones, which is an awesome buff for Myrmidon pilots.

I don't think the drone bonuses to the Ishtar or VNI should be changed, nor should they receive any other nerf.

I admit I am biased on this - I don't fly an Ishtar but I do have Gallente Battlecruiser 5 queued up as I was planning on blinging out a Myrm soon anyway. Don't touch the Myrm!

Not that I'm saying I'm behind this - but if we were forced to take a nerf to the Ishtar that would be the way to do it. Nerf Ishtar and buff another drone ship in the process. Because drones are awesome.
Nasar Vyron
S0utherN Comfort
#66 - 2015-03-17 05:35:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Nasar Vyron
I like that this nerf finally starts to hit the source of the problem with sentries, however it will fail to accomplish anything just like the previous patches hitting Ishtars. Which btw, I don't really get why they kept targeting the Ishtar when it's damage was never really the issue. More the problem was with sentry damage application, which happens to be it's primary damage source. Combine that with it's low sig, fast, tanky hull happens to make the Ishtar the primary choice for most engagements.

Let me lay a few things out here for anyone somehow not familiar with them yet.
Currently with the use of a single Drone Link Aug. you can extent the range of your drone's lock range to over 100km. Bouncers can hit that entire range unmodified outside of skills. All that without sacrificing tank or prop mods which allows for it to kite enemy fleets around the drone ball within their drone's optimal. If the enemy fleet sits on the ball just drop the next set of sentries and swing back around, possibly re-scooping your previous drones.

Now where does the problem?
Sentries have amazing damage application over a large range, but so do all sniping platforms which sentries closely resemble.

Why then do we not see more sniper Rohks? Megas? Nados? Nagas?
Because they are immobile, and closing the gap causes them to lose nearly all ability to apply their damage.

So why do Ishtars have so much luck when their primary damage effectively comes from sniping drones?
That's the thing, FCs who sit their fleets on the Ishtar's drones typically take no damage until the Ishtar fleet redeploys another set of sentries. Forcing them to (stupidly) re-approach the new drone ball forcing them through their optimal damage range or flying away and warping on top of the new ball.

Now you have 2 solutions to this that are really fairly simple and I'm curious why CCP hasn't taken the time to do so or overlooked it.

1) Reduce Ishtar drone bay such that it can only hold a single full flight of sentries, possibly down to 150 (1 set of lights and sentries). This removes their ability to kite and drop new drones if their original ball can no longer track. Forcing them to either abandon the fight or stay near their drones and scoop and move when the enemy moves in to brawl (Sentry Ishtars suck at brawling).

2) Remove drone control range and drone link aug. from effecting sentries. Attach specific lock ranges to each sentry past their initial optimal+falloff to allow for better use of omnidirectional mods. Sentries all now have a set ~20km control range, that if the controlling ship moves past they lose connection to their drones forcing the controlling ship to move back into range and reconnect to resume control or drop a new set of sentries.

If you can't tell I'm a fan of the second option. I see sentries as the sniping platform drone, as such they should be subject to the same disadvantages as any sniping platform ship - low tracking and low mobility. The Ishtar as well as any drone platform can currently circumvent this by kiting away from their drones and tricking their opponents to fly within their drone's optimal at low transversal.
This change would force the Ishtars/Vexor/Domi/SlowCat/etc fleets to make a decision:
-Long range, low mobility/low orbit with sentries or be forced to constantly drop new flights of sentries as they get out of range.
-Mobility via the use mobile drones (lights/mediums/heavies) which while their damage application is abysmal by comparison due to flight time, does not lock their ships to a single location.

The first option just seems poor to me and would likely destroy all use of them for fleet combat outside of a hit and run pos bash, but is an option none-the-less.

TL;DR - Give sentries a short control range forcing ships that make use of them to treat them like actual sniping platforms forcing lower mobility. Giving way to increased use of mobile drones when mobility is desired.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#67 - 2015-03-18 18:23:15 UTC
Optimal range of Bouncer sentry drones have been reduced by 14.3%. The same range has then been added to their falloff.,

from the patch notes, is this a typo or not as we haven't heard a thing in this thread for a long time?

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Arsine Mayhem
#68 - 2015-03-19 02:48:40 UTC
Swanky nutjob wrote:
Tracking is the problem, not optimal.

Rise and Fozzie, killing off 0.0 by one poorly thought out balance change, one after another.

Because not everyone has access to the same gear.
Kara Traice
Amarr Empire
#69 - 2015-03-22 03:09:22 UTC
Another nerf to sentries doesn't surprise me... from all the changes going on over the past year or more.. I think CCP has come down with Nerf Syndrome

They nerf one thing that is used commonly people migrate to the next best thing which then becomes perceived as OP and will be nerfed, on and on.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2015-03-23 16:46:28 UTC
Sentry drones create crap gameplay.

Sit still, ctrl-click, ctrl-F, repeat


sit still, assign to someone else... read a book.

Get rid of sentry drones altogether. Give the Dominix and Ishtar back their blaster bonuses.

Let us fly again!

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

So you want to be a Hero
#71 - 2015-03-25 22:58:54 UTC
Will tech 2 drones get t2 resistances, with ehp balanced ?

PS: please add a tech 2 salvage drone Cool

Eve online is :

A) mining simulator B) glorified chatroom C) spreadsheets online

D) CCP Games Pay to Win at skill leveling, with instant gratification

Sisyphus Amouh
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#72 - 2015-03-29 16:56:45 UTC
Kara Traice wrote:
Another nerf to sentries doesn't surprise me... from all the changes going on over the past year or more.. I think CCP has come down with Nerf Syndrome

They nerf one thing that is used commonly people migrate to the next best thing which then becomes perceived as OP and will be nerfed, on and on.

Agreed, its a feature of the system. Gives the game momentum in development. They'd really have to be clueless not experiment with loadouts before introducing ships and features of ships.