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Reply to CCP minutes - Drones already have a disadvantage
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Sugar Smacks
Khanid Royal Navy
Khanid.
#41 - 2015-01-29 19:53:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Sugar Smacks
This is why there are so many people using Ishtars now.
Because drones are at a disadvantage.
Right.

If fights turn heavily favored to one ship the game is imbalanced.
ashley Eoner
#42 - 2015-01-29 20:42:23 UTC
Sugar Smacks wrote:
This is why there are so many people using Ishtars now.
Because drones are at a disadvantage.
Right.

If fights turn heavily favored to one ship the game is imbalanced.

So drones are clearly overpowered because one drone boat out of all of them is preferred for specific activities...

Well by that metric every single weapons system is overpowered as they are all preferred for specific activities/situations...


What I find funny is you see one ship being really popular for specific activities and instead of investigating the hull bonus or the variety of variables that causes that popularity you decide instead to blame the weapon system. That weapon system of course for some reason doesn't extend in popularity to many other activities let alone many other ships.
Sugar Smacks
Khanid Royal Navy
Khanid.
#43 - 2015-01-29 20:50:03 UTC
ashley Eoner wrote:
Sugar Smacks wrote:
This is why there are so many people using Ishtars now.
Because drones are at a disadvantage.
Right.

If fights turn heavily favored to one ship the game is imbalanced.

So drones are clearly overpowered because one drone boat out of all of them is preferred for specific activities...

Well by that metric every single weapons system is overpowered as they are all preferred for specific activities/situations...


What I find funny is you see one ship being really popular for specific activities and instead of investigating the hull bonus or the variety of variables that causes that popularity you decide instead to blame the weapon system. That weapon system of course for some reason doesn't extend in popularity to many other activities let alone many other ships.


Good luck selling your argument when people clearly don't use 90% of ships.
ashley Eoner
#44 - 2015-01-29 21:07:18 UTC
Sugar Smacks wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:
Sugar Smacks wrote:
This is why there are so many people using Ishtars now.
Because drones are at a disadvantage.
Right.

If fights turn heavily favored to one ship the game is imbalanced.

So drones are clearly overpowered because one drone boat out of all of them is preferred for specific activities...

Well by that metric every single weapons system is overpowered as they are all preferred for specific activities/situations...


What I find funny is you see one ship being really popular for specific activities and instead of investigating the hull bonus or the variety of variables that causes that popularity you decide instead to blame the weapon system. That weapon system of course for some reason doesn't extend in popularity to many other activities let alone many other ships.


Good luck selling your argument when people clearly don't use 90% of ships.
Yeah when I went to jita all I saw were ishtars. Man I went mining the other day but I couldn't because the belts were full of ishtars eating all the rocks..

I tried to run a courier contract but all the ishtar pilots snagged them up before I could :(
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#45 - 2015-01-29 21:35:37 UTC
Desimus Maximus wrote:
Skyla Braveheart wrote:
yeah..i was trying to rat last night, and my drones were suddenly just..stopping. not attacking until i ordered them to -again- needless to say..the rats out tanked them because they kept stopping..i didnt have this problem before..only last night..i dont know if something changed or what..but..its bad..ratting with drones is how i make money so far..and now i cant :/


Sounds like D-rectile dysfunction to me.

And btw ratting with drones is how 95% of capsuleers make their money.

AND.. And.. and..... Nerf the Ishtar drone bay ffs. I'd luv to know where all those large drones are being stored on a CRUISER.


Well, there's one way to address the drone issue: change drones to have a similar volume to the turreted weapons of the same size.

Why is a sentry drone only 25m3 when it should be closer to 1000?

Of course I also want turreted weapons to have a meaningful size, so that a large railgun doesn't somehow fit into a 50m3 package. The materials alone are twenty times the volume.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
ashley Eoner
#46 - 2015-01-29 23:01:33 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Desimus Maximus wrote:
Skyla Braveheart wrote:
yeah..i was trying to rat last night, and my drones were suddenly just..stopping. not attacking until i ordered them to -again- needless to say..the rats out tanked them because they kept stopping..i didnt have this problem before..only last night..i dont know if something changed or what..but..its bad..ratting with drones is how i make money so far..and now i cant :/


Sounds like D-rectile dysfunction to me.

And btw ratting with drones is how 95% of capsuleers make their money.

AND.. And.. and..... Nerf the Ishtar drone bay ffs. I'd luv to know where all those large drones are being stored on a CRUISER.


Well, there's one way to address the drone issue: change drones to have a similar volume to the turreted weapons of the same size.

Why is a sentry drone only 25m3 when it should be closer to 1000?

Of course I also want turreted weapons to have a meaningful size, so that a large railgun doesn't somehow fit into a 50m3 package. The materials alone are twenty times the volume.

So your "solution" to the ishtar being "OP" is for CCP to change every drone carrying ship in the game? Wut?????


ISHTAR IS OP BAN DRONES!!!
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#47 - 2015-01-29 23:18:41 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Let's see...

- Drones ignore most instructions.
- They target whoever they want.
- They attack whenever they feel like.
- They switch targets at random
- They wander off on their own (to mate, maybe?).

Having them reload is the least of the things that need looking at.

Mr Epeen Cool

You obviously suck at using drones. I've never had any of these problems.
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#48 - 2015-01-29 23:22:34 UTC
"Drones do all these awful things like attack things I don't want them to, not attack things I do want them to, fly off in random directions, and so on. Yeah, drones suck. I still use them because reasons, but yeah they totally suck. Don't touch them."
ashley Eoner
#49 - 2015-01-29 23:35:52 UTC
Primary This Rifter wrote:
"Drones do all these awful things like attack things I don't want them to, not attack things I do want them to, fly off in random directions, and so on. Yeah, drones suck. I still use them because reasons, but yeah they totally suck. Don't touch them."

I use them because they are on most combat ships as a secondary weapon system. Generally as ant-anythingtoosmallformygunstohit. So yes I use them because well they are almost always there...


I do like it when my light drones don't return to me and just float around off 60 KM from me haha..
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#50 - 2015-01-29 23:44:36 UTC
Ishtars....


sooo the pattern will be: Everybody using a drone boat nerf drones.

I think that can happen, why?

What happened in the past?

Drakes happened.


It was "everybody using a missile boat" HM got nerfed.


THEN after a while, the Drake got nerfed.


The nerf hammer is a clown hammer. I hope this pattern is not repeated.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#51 - 2015-01-30 00:05:30 UTC
They simply need to remove sentry drones from the game.

That solves a lot of problems up front, all the way from HAC balance to capital ship balance, and in between.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#52 - 2015-01-30 00:30:35 UTC
Drones aren't OP, some ship drone bonuses are. Cruisers with 400m3 bays are just ludicrous.

The Gila got whacked for that, and everybody cried until they realized it is more lethal than it was before with serious medium buffs.

The Ishtar needs a similar adjustment imho. Drop the sentry bonuses, capacity (250m3 like the Eos), and buff the mediums dps/hp. Heavy bonuses can stay, it's still a wrecking ball.
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#53 - 2015-01-30 00:32:18 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
They simply need to remove sentry drones from the game.

That solves a lot of problems up front, all the way from HAC balance to capital ship balance, and in between.

No it doesn't. It's a ******** idea.
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#54 - 2015-01-30 00:49:41 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
They simply need to remove sentry drones from the game.

That solves a lot of problems up front, all the way from HAC balance to capital ship balance, and in between.


Or simply add a deployment timer to sentries (like the deployable units in game).
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#55 - 2015-01-30 11:08:14 UTC
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:
Drones aren't OP.


Tell that to my Hyperion's Praetors, they are murdering frigs and dessis.
Signal11th
#56 - 2015-01-30 11:40:55 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:
Drones aren't OP.


Tell that to my Hyperion's Praetors, they are murdering frigs and dessis.



As a BS should.

God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!
Artemis Ellery Sazas
Shock and Awe Inc.
#57 - 2015-01-30 12:27:39 UTC
I think all drones are almost perfect as is and need very little tweaking. Speaking as a ratter, and some ratters will hate me for this, I believe the auto aggression drones have should be removed. Drones should have to be told to "engage target a, b, or c," and not fly off on their own to engage a target. If they are not told to engage a target, they should just orbit the ship until the engage command is given. I fly a drone boat everyday, so this would effect me as well. This would be a huge change for some pilots, but to me some of the other "drone nerf" options are far more disturbing.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#58 - 2015-01-30 12:31:23 UTC
Would be cool though if FoF afk-orbiting the Hub Beacon at 100km would be as profitable as doing the same with deployed heavies.

I dislike how you can't really do this with Em/Therm drones compared to Kin/Exp and their absurd shield-hp discrepancy.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#59 - 2015-01-30 12:54:56 UTC
Primary This Rifter wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
They simply need to remove sentry drones from the game.

That solves a lot of problems up front, all the way from HAC balance to capital ship balance, and in between.

No it doesn't. It's a ******** idea.


Elaborate.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#60 - 2015-01-30 13:59:22 UTC
ashley Eoner wrote:
Hicksimus wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:

You know I can share a dozen or more builds involving cruisers belching out battleship level DPS without even using drones.


But these fits you would share have to be at 3km instead of 70-120km to do it and they have no EHP. I get that my idea isn't popular because nearly everybody is abusing drones for large PvE income and nullsec is using them to be lame in general but I'm still certain that having Battleship DPS at huge range with infinite ammo in a relatively fast ship is a bit much.


Edit: Or let me mount other battleship weapons on cruisers while still being able to properly fit them because that would be amazing. 425mm Deimos Versus Sentry Ishtar, etc.

Now you're just being ridiculous.

If you can't out dps an ishtar at 120 KM range while having a bigger tank in a BS then you're doing it wrong.

The ishtar pilot has to sacrifice a LOT of something to be hitting at 120km usually both tank and DPS. At the very least DPS takes a nasty hit compared to BSes.

So no you're not going to be doing BS level dps at 120 KM while still having a good tank in an ishtar.


Standard shield tanked nano Ishtar does in every circumstance more DPS against an another Ishtar than a BS will at 120km, excluding the Dominix because they share the same weapon system. When shooting a BS, baltec megathron will do more DPS than the Ishtar at 118km and onwards, between 0-118km the Ishtar does more DPS. Picking 120km range is deceiving as it's pretty much the break point between the ships and you can just rabble on about it until the world ends. Fact is that Ishtar cannot control past 117km on this fit and baltec can lock up to 145km.

This leads to a conclusion that yes, Ishtar cannot out-damage at 120km, but any range before 118km the Ishtar (and dominix) will be superior choice due to their zero tracking issues (drones are not attached to the ship) and DPS. This is due to their bonuses to sentry drones, and only because of that.