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Reply to CCP minutes - Drones already have a disadvantage

Author
ashley Eoner
#61 - 2015-01-30 16:36:59 UTC
Adrie Atticus wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:
Hicksimus wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:

You know I can share a dozen or more builds involving cruisers belching out battleship level DPS without even using drones.


But these fits you would share have to be at 3km instead of 70-120km to do it and they have no EHP. I get that my idea isn't popular because nearly everybody is abusing drones for large PvE income and nullsec is using them to be lame in general but I'm still certain that having Battleship DPS at huge range with infinite ammo in a relatively fast ship is a bit much.


Edit: Or let me mount other battleship weapons on cruisers while still being able to properly fit them because that would be amazing. 425mm Deimos Versus Sentry Ishtar, etc.

Now you're just being ridiculous.

If you can't out dps an ishtar at 120 KM range while having a bigger tank in a BS then you're doing it wrong.

The ishtar pilot has to sacrifice a LOT of something to be hitting at 120km usually both tank and DPS. At the very least DPS takes a nasty hit compared to BSes.

So no you're not going to be doing BS level dps at 120 KM while still having a good tank in an ishtar.


Standard shield tanked nano Ishtar does in every circumstance more DPS against an another Ishtar than a BS will at 120km, excluding the Dominix because they share the same weapon system. When shooting a BS, baltec megathron will do more DPS than the Ishtar at 118km and onwards, between 0-118km the Ishtar does more DPS. Picking 120km range is deceiving as it's pretty much the break point between the ships and you can just rabble on about it until the world ends. Fact is that Ishtar cannot control past 117km on this fit and baltec can lock up to 145km.

This leads to a conclusion that yes, Ishtar cannot out-damage at 120km, but any range before 118km the Ishtar (and dominix) will be superior choice due to their zero tracking issues (drones are not attached to the ship) and DPS. This is due to their bonuses to sentry drones, and only because of that.

Show us this standard shield tanked ishtar..

Sentry drones have at best BS level of tracking so even though they are sitting still there will be tracking issues as your opponent should be moving too. Although we could spend the next year providing counter examples either way.

Regardless anything beyond 20 KM your opponent can disengage at will.
Khan Wrenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#62 - 2015-01-30 16:53:20 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Let's see...

- Drones ignore most instructions.
- They target whoever they want.
- They attack whenever they feel like.
- They switch targets at random
- They wander off on their own (to mate, maybe?).

Having them reload is the least of the things that need looking at.

Mr Epeen Cool



You know, I don't doubt this happens, but how often? I've used drones extensively for over a year, I've never had ONE of those supposed problems happen to me.

Easy way to bring drones more in-line to other weapon systems? Make them use capacitor of the trigger ship. Suddenly, you can't use instalock interceptors on a gate because he won't have enough reserves to fire all five. It doesn't even have to be a lot of cap. It can be fairly balanced so 5 sentries on one ship is perfectly doable, even on an ishtar. But it does do a lot to balance them properly since now there is something you can do to counter the weapon other than "lol bombs despite the fact that you can't use them in half the space". Neut out the trigger ship - he can still reassign if he wants. But you'll need sufficient capacitor to trigger all those sentries, so any instalock interceptor won't be able to. And heck, you'll make those new void bombs that much more valuable if you can figure out the enemy trigger ship in a fleet (doubtful, but hey I leave that one up to you guys to figure out).

Plus, now that cap requirement will effect the active modules on the trigger ship, like local tank and prop mods. You may or may not be able to run them all at once.

Out of 5 major weapon systems in the game (laser turrets, hybrid turrets, projectile turrets, missiles, drones), a full three of them don't use cap. Since drones in general ignore all other forms of electronic warfare but are generally balanced, but sentries are inheritly different than other drones which suffer from travel time and MORE susceptibility to destruction, I think this would be a perfect trade-off for sentries.

I don't want them removed from the game, nerfed too hard, made unusuable, their damage lowered, their tracking lowered...I think this one change will bring them better in-line for PVP since now you have one more option to pursue.
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#63 - 2015-01-30 17:07:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaldi Tsukaya
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:
Drones aren't OP.


Tell that to my Hyperion's Praetors, they are murdering frigs and dessis.


Thats funny, I fly a Hyperion and use the drones for same effect. Shh, don't tell my Caldari overlords...Blink
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#64 - 2015-01-30 17:19:45 UTC
Khan Wrenth wrote:


Since drones in general ignore all other forms of electronic warfare....


Really? Maybe you should try ewar against drones and see...
Commander Spurty
#65 - 2015-01-30 17:54:59 UTC
If you can't micromanage your drones and put one drone on each of 5 targets, you need to keep practicing or reskill.

Problem is mostly yours. Rarely see drones going skynet these days. Used to be a huge issue. Now, not so much.

Drones are insane when you look at their stats. Clearly some degree of "Mass delusion" going on if you think otherwise.

Infinite ammo is fine as long as only shoot EMP/Thermal AND you balance that with cap limitations.

After that, drones drive pretty quickly into the "this makes no sense" area of the game.

While we're looking at them under the microscope, why if I 'tracking disrupt' your ship, does this not affect your drones? You ship is the one controlling them .. right?

Reloading is a start .. give them ammo as well plz

There are good ships,

And wood ships,

And ships that sail the sea

But the best ships are Spaceships

Built by CCP

Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#66 - 2015-01-30 18:18:07 UTC
Commander Spurty wrote:
If you can't micromanage your drones and put one drone on each of 5 targets, you need to keep practicing or reskill.

Problem is mostly yours. Rarely see drones going skynet these days. Used to be a huge issue. Now, not so much.

Drones are insane when you look at their stats. Clearly some degree of "Mass delusion" going on if you think otherwise.

Infinite ammo is fine as long as only shoot EMP/Thermal AND you balance that with cap limitations.

After that, drones drive pretty quickly into the "this makes no sense" area of the game.

While we're looking at them under the microscope, why if I 'tracking disrupt' your ship, does this not affect your drones? You ship is the one controlling them .. right?

Reloading is a start .. give them ammo as well plz



That's why if they want to drop nerf hammers on drones, then just an arbitrary nerf hammer, like what they did to rapid missile launchers and the ridiculous reload time, would only be an exhibition of reckless ignorance.


if they want to make it harder to switch drones, then justify a "launch prep time" by letting us load up drones with different ammo and give drones module and rig slots.

If they want to reduce the damage output of drones, then let us weigh the "cost and risk" ourselves instead of a blinded and blanket nerf so that some players who will pay the price in CPU, grid or bandwidth can still maintain higher damage instead of, you know, having to park their drone boats and train for something else.

If they want to change NPC AI to make drone use harder, or worse, rapid drone nuking, then let us at least be able to equip and rig drones with armor and specific scripts to meet changing needs.


Yeah that's a lot of changes. Sometimes I think the brainless blanket nerfs (I've had a kicked dog reflex to nerfs since the rapid missile launcher debacle) is pretty much ALL that can be done when too many "important" players (large blocs *ahem* grrr goons and all that) put their complaint swarm to work.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Ginger Lunacy
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2015-01-30 19:11:49 UTC
I started playing eve in 2008 and have been a faithful follower since then.I have put up with each nerf as they make each one of my favorite ships/weapons obsolete.The last drone changes made me train an extra couple of months to get my drones back to where they were(not better).No big deal i comply without a whimper and adjust to "rebalance".What you sheep fail to see is some of us use drones as a main weapon system and only drones for pve.They are just barely on par with turrets, missiles etc.With this latest incoming nerf drones will fall short of any comparison to every other main weapon system.I have felt for the last year of constant nerfs/"rebalancing" that maybe its time to move on from eve because its just not the game i fell in love with years ago.These geniuses have turned it into wow it seems.When these nerfs become a reality my subs will end.No you cant have my sh%t.
Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries
Space Brutality
#68 - 2015-01-30 19:33:39 UTC
Desimus Maximus wrote:
Skyla Braveheart wrote:
yeah..i was trying to rat last night, and my drones were suddenly just..stopping. not attacking until i ordered them to -again- needless to say..the rats out tanked them because they kept stopping..i didnt have this problem before..only last night..i dont know if something changed or what..but..its bad..ratting with drones is how i make money so far..and now i cant :/


Sounds like D-rectile dysfunction to me.

And btw ratting with drones is how 95% of capsuleers make their money.

AND.. And.. and..... Nerf the Ishtar drone bay ffs. I'd luv to know where all those large drones are being stored on a CRUISER.


Not I, ive stopped using drones for missions. When I deploy drones I see instant agro drop from my ship to any drone that gets launched and usually atleast 1 instapop

As well as I leave the drones for only close combat due to needing a quick recovery time when they get aggro before attacking anything.

"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith

Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#69 - 2015-01-30 19:46:33 UTC
ashley Eoner wrote:

Show us this standard shield tanked ishtar..

Sentry drones have at best BS level of tracking so even though they are sitting still there will be tracking issues as your opponent should be moving too. Although we could spend the next year providing counter examples either way.

Regardless anything beyond 20 KM your opponent can disengage at will.


2x DLA II
2x LSE
10mn MWD
Invul
EM ward
2-3x DDA
1-2 OTE II
DC II

Pretty much standard fleet shield Ishtar everyone and their mother uses. 118km control range, drones hit reliably to about 132-133km and track anything BS sized perfectly. Disengaging means you lose the fight, which can cost you a tower, a station or a system, it's not always an option. Small gang/solo Ishtars are perfectly fine beacuse we can just warp on top of it and force it to run or it dies to anything from a few talwars to a single BS if tackled.
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#70 - 2015-01-30 22:14:38 UTC
Drones were already nerfed with the AI changes a few years ago. Drone have a lot of lost dps due to having to constantly recall and re-deploy them. I mean I guess from a PvP stand point that changed nothing but if you keep nerfing drones for PvP reasons and don't do anything to prop them up on PvE then where is this balance that you are claiming to be after?

I'm not arguing for balance mind you. In fact I argued against it in the discussions leading up to the tiericide. I'm just saying you claim to be seeking balance amongst the races when it is most certainly not the case.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli

NovaCat13
Seymourus and Co.
#71 - 2015-01-31 00:03:38 UTC
ergherhdfgh wrote:
I'm just saying you claim to be seeking balance amongst the races when it is most certainly not the case.


Racist

Just say NO to Dailies

Komodo Askold
Strategic Exploration and Development Corp
Silent Company
#72 - 2015-01-31 12:52:37 UTC
I don't think a timer would really help towards "balancing" drone boats like the Ishtar. Many ships can use drones, and they are their only defense against smaller ones, such as battleships against frigates.

At the end, it seems that the main problem is the Ishtar and its ability to both have a large drone bay and field heavy/sentry drones, as it gives it a hard punch (nearly battleship-like) with cruiser mobility and T2 resists.
I wonder how would it do if each ship could only use drones its size or smaller. That is:

- Light drones for frigates and destroyers.
- Light and medium drones for cruisers and battlecruisers.
- Light, medium, heavy and sentry drones for battleships.
- Carriers and supercarriers keep their current abilities (all subcap drones plus fighters/fighterbombers).

Maybe that way we could prevent smaller ships from dealing too much damage for their size, such as the Ishtar.

Or maybe this could hurt other ships too much. What do you think?



That said, I've never had any of the "problems" some people are claiming to have with their drones attacking whatever they want, etc.
If your drones are set to aggresive, they will attack the nearest hostile target if they were previously deployed, and attack the next hostile target once the first one is done, no matter if you told them to attack the first one or not.
If they're set to passive, they will only engage targets that you, personally, indicate them, and stand-by otherwise.
After each target, you have to manually direct them towards their targets, check if they're approaching the limit of your drone control range, and pull them back if they're taking too much damage.
You have to carefully control them, like if you were using turrets or launchers.

Foxicity
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2015-01-31 21:08:43 UTC
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
Concord Guy's Cousin wrote:
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
At least they behave more like 12yr old cats now instead of the herd of rowdy kittens they used to be.
So they sleep all day, constantly demand to be fed in the hope that you've forgotten that you fed them 10 minutes ago and smack you in the face at 3 in the morning in the hope you'll feed them again or let them out?


More like attack your feet, your friends feet, your mothers feet, each other, the wall, the curtains, the couch, the spot where the sun is shining on the rug, the bug on the wall, the pull string for the ceiling fan, the newspaper... pretty much everything else but the one thing theyre told or allowed to attack.


Are we talking about CCP or drones Straight
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#74 - 2015-01-31 21:31:37 UTC
Komodo Askold wrote:
I don't think a timer would really help towards "balancing" drone boats like the Ishtar. Many ships can use drones, and they are their only defense against smaller ones, such as battleships against frigates.

At the end, it seems that the main problem is the Ishtar and its ability to both have a large drone bay and field heavy/sentry drones, as it gives it a hard punch (nearly battleship-like) with cruiser mobility and T2 resists.
I wonder how would it do if each ship could only use drones its size or smaller. That is:

- Light drones for frigates and destroyers.
- Light and medium drones for cruisers and battlecruisers.
- Light, medium, heavy and sentry drones for battleships.
- Carriers and supercarriers keep their current abilities (all subcap drones plus fighters/fighterbombers).

Maybe that way we could prevent smaller ships from dealing too much damage for their size, such as the Ishtar.

Or maybe this could hurt other ships too much. What do you think?



That said, I've never had any of the "problems" some people are claiming to have with their drones attacking whatever they want, etc.
If your drones are set to aggresive, they will attack the nearest hostile target if they were previously deployed, and attack the next hostile target once the first one is done, no matter if you told them to attack the first one or not.
If they're set to passive, they will only engage targets that you, personally, indicate them, and stand-by otherwise.
After each target, you have to manually direct them towards their targets, check if they're approaching the limit of your drone control range, and pull them back if they're taking too much damage.
You have to carefully control them, like if you were using turrets or launchers.





I'm going to bet we'll see something arbitrary but along the lines of how missiles were handled.


Back in the days of olde, a missile launcher did not really "care" what size missile. There was a time when the size of the missile was not pegged to the size of the launcher.

So I can see a day that, given the problems cited with a certain drone boat, we will see "small drone bay", "Medium Drone bay" and "Large Drone Bay", and maybe even "Fighter Bay", etc.

HOPEFULLY if CCP were to implement that to keep the size of a ships drones in compliance with the size of the ship, we would be able to treat drone bays like modules. That is, while say a frigate might only be able to fit a "small drone bay", we would have the option say with a battle cruiser like the Cyclone (as an example) which can hold 10 light drones OR 5 medium drones, we would have the choice then to fit one "medium drone bay" or 2x "small drone bay".

On such a system, then it could be construed that a ship like a cruiser would simply not be able to fit a "large drone bay" and such that a battleship could, but for the love of God, let larger ships "size down" while not letting smaller ships "size up" could correct this Ishtar scourge without boning every battleship pilot across New Eden.


Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#75 - 2015-02-01 03:39:33 UTC
Drones are fine except for sentries. Those need to be ma. slightly less good but not to the point of uselessness. A lot of the things being talked about are just going to make drones useless - they already have a quite major disadvantage in travel time and the fact that with a web they can be killed quite easily. The potential to lose so much of your dps especially on a ship with a smaller drone bay is a real threat.

The issue with sentries is that they simply don't share the same disadvantages as the rest of their weapon class.

Perhaps a slight nerf to dps especially at extreme range? Maybe lower their rate of fire and raise damage to compensate?

Drones are a very SP intensive weapon and id like to not see them nuked. Find a way to make sentry ishtars and carriers SLIGHTLY less good and problem solved.
Valkin Mordirc
#76 - 2015-02-02 02:33:27 UTC
Signal11th wrote:
Yeah back to the next thing they nerf, it's just a never-ending cycle of CCP nerfing stuff because it's too popular and then the players finding what's the next best thing to use and then CCP nerfing that because it's too popular and so on and so on.

Drake blobs , nerf missiles
Supercap blobs = nerf tracking
Drone blobs= lets nerf drones.

Why not just give everyone the same ship and the same weapon and be done with it.



Oldish post but I'd just like to point something out, about what you're saying.

If CCP let some OP mechanic in the game, Everyone would use it. Because everything else would be welped by it. So there would be no point in flying anything else

If CCP Nerfed everything into the same thing, Everyone would be using it. The only difference is the way the ships looked.


Illusion of choice much? Your post pretty much defeats itself.


#DeleteTheWeak
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#77 - 2015-02-02 03:40:19 UTC
Valkin Mordirc wrote:
Signal11th wrote:
Yeah back to the next thing they nerf, it's just a never-ending cycle of CCP nerfing stuff because it's too popular and then the players finding what's the next best thing to use and then CCP nerfing that because it's too popular and so on and so on.

Drake blobs , nerf missiles
Supercap blobs = nerf tracking
Drone blobs= lets nerf drones.

Why not just give everyone the same ship and the same weapon and be done with it.



Oldish post but I'd just like to point something out, about what you're saying.

If CCP let some OP mechanic in the game, Everyone would use it. Because everything else would be welped by it. So there would be no point in flying anything else

If CCP Nerfed everything into the same thing, Everyone would be using it. The only difference is the way the ships looked.


Illusion of choice much? Your post pretty much defeats itself.






The concern is that CCP might fail to directly address the actual scourge and do a blanket nerf either by a retardation of functionality or capability (the Drake use resulting in missile nerf) of an entire "thing".

The "scourge" is not the drones, it's a ship of the month fielding a certain drone type. Hopefully this is directly addressed, and not everybody gets "punished" (using that term loosely here).


Bring back DEEEEP Space!

IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
#78 - 2015-02-02 04:41:10 UTC
All they have to do is give drones a fitting cost.

Drone ships are OP at the moment - Ishtar is just a stand out example.

No other ship type can fit DPS without any CPU or PG cost.

This leaves drone ships the ability to be uber tanked + Fast/hold some Ewar/whatevs else you want all while doing good dps.



So either a drone nerf or a fitting cost for putting them in the bay is needed + cap use for deploying them. (to stop people undocking with offlined modules and switching them on one the pew starts)
Sean Parisi
Blackrise Vanguard
#79 - 2015-02-02 18:21:15 UTC
Drones in my opinion are strong - but standard drones are in a solid place. Where they fall down is with the balancing of Sentries as opposed to light / medium / heavy drones. Drones as a standard weapon system suffer from many drawbacks and strengths - something that sentries tend to ignore.

Essentially Sentries allow Cruisers to have battle ship sized turrets with no tracking drawback to themselves for maintaining traversal. With the only cost really being that the sentries themselves cannot move. At the same time the alternative option to using the Ishtar would have been the Rattlesnake or Dominix - ships that get genocided off field by bombers. (Which saddens me because I love bombers as a ship and a play style) however with prominent use they may have to be addressed as well.

What am I saying? Yes Drone ships are strong in some circumstances - but overall I feel them to be balanced at the same level as light missile launchers are - slightly strong in most situations but still with weaknesses.

The issue lies in Sentries as a platform when combined with the Ishtar and how Stealth Bombers disrupt the Battleship meta.
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#80 - 2015-02-02 18:28:36 UTC
Here's a solution to the ishtar: remove its sentry bonuses.

Wow its like magic! All problems solved!