These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Okay, so, seriously.

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#121 - 2015-01-27 00:41:47 UTC
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:
Val'Dore wrote:
Even SOE handles this better... come on CCP.


Really?

"Any and all User Content submitted (e.g., by uploading or transmitting) to SOE shall be deemed, and shall remain, the property of SOE and/or its Third Party Providers from the moment of uploading or transmission. Accordingly, SOE shall exclusively own all now known or hereafter existing copyrights and all other intellectual property rights to all User Content of every kind and nature, in perpetuity, throughout the universe "


But they bribe you with a share of sales. CCP doesn't.

Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.

I invented Tiericide
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#122 - 2015-01-27 00:44:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaldi Tsukaya
Val'Dore wrote:
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:
Val'Dore wrote:
Even SOE handles this better... come on CCP.


Really?

"Any and all User Content submitted (e.g., by uploading or transmitting) to SOE shall be deemed, and shall remain, the property of SOE and/or its Third Party Providers from the moment of uploading or transmission. Accordingly, SOE shall exclusively own all now known or hereafter existing copyrights and all other intellectual property rights to all User Content of every kind and nature, in perpetuity, throughout the universe "


But they bribe you with a share of sales. CCP doesn't.


Oh wait, there's more:

"SOE is pleased to hear from its customers and welcomes your comments regarding SOE's online services. Unfortunately, however, SOE's long-standing company policy does not allow it to accept or consider creative ideas, suggestions or materials other than those it has specifically requested. The intent of this policy is to avoid the possibility of future misunderstandings when projects developed by SOE's professional staff might seem to others to be similar to their own creative work. Accordingly, we must, regretfully, ask that you do not send us any original creative materials such as game ideas or original artwork. While we do value your feedback on our services and products, we request that you be specific in your comments on those services and products, and not submit any creative ideas, suggestions or materials."

They don't want your ideas or creative submissions...
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#123 - 2015-01-27 00:47:50 UTC
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:
Val'Dore wrote:
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:
Val'Dore wrote:
Even SOE handles this better... come on CCP.


Really?

"Any and all User Content submitted (e.g., by uploading or transmitting) to SOE shall be deemed, and shall remain, the property of SOE and/or its Third Party Providers from the moment of uploading or transmission. Accordingly, SOE shall exclusively own all now known or hereafter existing copyrights and all other intellectual property rights to all User Content of every kind and nature, in perpetuity, throughout the universe "


But they bribe you with a share of sales. CCP doesn't.


Oh wait, there's more:

"SOE is pleased to hear from its customers and welcomes your comments regarding SOE's online services. Unfortunately, however, SOE's long-standing company policy does not allow it to accept or consider creative ideas, suggestions or materials other than those it has specifically requested. The intent of this policy is to avoid the possibility of future misunderstandings when projects developed by SOE's professional staff might seem to others to be similar to their own creative work. Accordingly, we must, regretfully, ask that you do not send us any original creative materials such as game ideas or original artwork. While we do value your feedback on our services and products, we request that you be specific in your comments on those services and products, and not submit any creative ideas, suggestions or materials."

They don't want your ideas or creative submissions...


The hair up your ass is your business. It has nothing to do with the topic at hand or my contribution to it.

Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.

I invented Tiericide
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#124 - 2015-01-27 00:55:09 UTC
Val'Dore wrote:


The hair up your ass is your business. It has nothing to do with the topic at hand or my contribution to it.


I don't think using the example of a multi-billion dollar company, currently mired in multiple class action lawsuits, is a good model for CCP to look to. Do you?
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#125 - 2015-01-27 03:05:25 UTC
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:
Val'Dore wrote:


The hair up your ass is your business. It has nothing to do with the topic at hand or my contribution to it.


I don't think using the example of a multi-billion dollar company, currently mired in multiple class action lawsuits, is a good model for CCP to look to. Do you?


I'm talking about player created and submitted logos. You are talking about something off topic.

Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.

I invented Tiericide
ISD Supogo
ISD BH
ISD Alliance
#126 - 2015-01-27 03:45:37 UTC
Removed a couple of rule-breaking posts.

Quote:

Forum rules

2. Be respectful toward others at all times.

The purpose of the EVE Online forums is to provide a platform for exchange of ideas, and a venue for the discussion of EVE Online. Occasionally there will be conflicts that arise when people voice opinions. Forum users are expected to be courteous when disagreeing with others.

8. Use of profanity is prohibited.

The use of profanity is prohibited on the EVE Online forums. This includes the partial masking of letters using numbers or alternate symbols, and any attempts at bypassing the profanity filter.

ISD BH Supogo

Bughunter

Equipment Certification and Anomaly Investigations Division (ECAID)

Interstellar Services Department
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
Goonswarm Federation
#127 - 2015-01-27 11:10:54 UTC
OP just wants to show off with her new Boobs.

TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] "   CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a diȼk joke." Robin Williams - RIP
CCP Falcon
#128 - 2015-01-27 11:49:58 UTC
Grivan wrote:
I have followed various of these threads, particularly the long running one following the dev blog. I'm not entirely sure what we are arguing about any more.

Originally CCP said they had to own all the content packaged in the their game, people pointed out that with regard to logos this is technically impossible or difficult (the German copyright law, for example). CCP have taken that away and come back with this proposal - correct me if I have mis-understood this:

A player creates a logo, they own this logo. They upload the logo, CCP modifies it (watermark, border, kangaroo, whatever) and they own this derivative work. The derivative is used within the game and all official CCP shebang. The original artist is free to use their original logo as they like (or to use the derivative, I imagine). One question raised was if the ownership of the original and the derivative are truly separate?


This is basically it, yes.

There are other factors than the legal side of this that are affecting when we can release more information and resolve this. The CSM have been fully briefed on why we haven't opened alliance logo submissions again, however we're not in a position where we can discuss it publicly at this time.

CCP Falcon || EVE Universe Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon

Happy Birthday To FAWLTY7! <3
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#129 - 2015-01-27 11:59:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
CCP Falcon wrote:
This is basically it, yes.

There are other factors than the legal side of this that are affecting when we can release more information and resolve this. The CSM have been fully briefed on why we haven't opened alliance logo submissions again, however we're not in a position where we can discuss it publicly at this time.
Why not just release a variety of layers, shapes and colours that can be used in a builder to make art within the client that then gets saved as a static image once completed. The artsy types can do some pretty amazing stuff with that, just look at Forza car designs for example, and that way there's very few legal issues.

Beyond legal issues, what other issues are there? It's an image. They already exist and multiple alliances have exactly that. The only other issue I can think of would be moderating content, which shouldn't be an issue with the relatively low volume and simplicity of the images.

It's tempting to suggest that at this point excuses are just being made.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#130 - 2015-01-27 12:17:57 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
This is basically it, yes.

There are other factors than the legal side of this that are affecting when we can release more information and resolve this. The CSM have been fully briefed on why we haven't opened alliance logo submissions again, however we're not in a position where we can discuss it publicly at this time.

Why the secrecy? You know how this looks now? Does that mean you are violating the law with the current situation with the old logos? What else can possibly prevent you from communicating the real reasons for this extremely big delay.

Evil RatKid
CCP Falcon
#131 - 2015-01-27 13:38:42 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
It's tempting to suggest that at this point excuses are just being made.


If I could solve this overnight, it would have been taken care of last year.

CCP Falcon || EVE Universe Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon

Happy Birthday To FAWLTY7! <3
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#132 - 2015-01-27 14:09:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Altrue
Edit: can't wait for logos to be submittable again Big smile

Signature Tanking Best Tanking

[Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart
Jennifer Maxwell
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
#133 - 2015-01-27 15:50:32 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
It's tempting to suggest that at this point excuses are just being made.


If I could solve this overnight, it would have been taken care of last year.

Perhaps combine two of the suggestions? Have option A, and option B.

Option A, you get to make your alliance logo out of shapes and emblems already owned by CCP, much like the corp logo design process. Ergo, it's owned by CCP, but still allows people freedom to make the logo.

Option B, the person submits a logo they designed, but must acknowledge that by submitting it to CCP and it being approved, that CCP officially own the logo now.

That way, people who don't want to give up their precious artwork can still have a logo.


This whole watermark thing just seems... I don't know. Like, is there going to be a transparent "CCP" overlaid over the emblem? Not that I don't like you guys, but that would look a little too... fake, you know?
CCP Falcon
#134 - 2015-01-27 17:25:23 UTC
Jennifer Maxwell wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
It's tempting to suggest that at this point excuses are just being made.


If I could solve this overnight, it would have been taken care of last year.

Perhaps combine two of the suggestions? Have option A, and option B.

Option A, you get to make your alliance logo out of shapes and emblems already owned by CCP, much like the corp logo design process. Ergo, it's owned by CCP, but still allows people freedom to make the logo.

Option B, the person submits a logo they designed, but must acknowledge that by submitting it to CCP and it being approved, that CCP officially own the logo now.

That way, people who don't want to give up their precious artwork can still have a logo.


This whole watermark thing just seems... I don't know. Like, is there going to be a transparent "CCP" overlaid over the emblem? Not that I don't like you guys, but that would look a little too... fake, you know?


Option A has been discussed.

Option B is not an option.

CCP Falcon || EVE Universe Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon

Happy Birthday To FAWLTY7! <3
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#135 - 2015-01-27 17:32:14 UTC
Jennifer Maxwell wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
It's tempting to suggest that at this point excuses are just being made.


If I could solve this overnight, it would have been taken care of last year.

Perhaps combine two of the suggestions? Have option A, and option B.

Option A, you get to make your alliance logo out of shapes and emblems already owned by CCP, much like the corp logo design process. Ergo, it's owned by CCP, but still allows people freedom to make the logo.

Option B, the person submits a logo they designed, but must acknowledge that by submitting it to CCP and it being approved, that CCP officially own the logo now.

That way, people who don't want to give up their precious artwork can still have a logo.


This whole watermark thing just seems... I don't know. Like, is there going to be a transparent "CCP" overlaid over the emblem? Not that I don't like you guys, but that would look a little too... fake, you know?


There are countries even in Europe where you cannot give away your full copyrights in any circumstances whatsoever, that can come and bite CCP in the backside real fast. By submitting a logo to CCP you automatically break the ToS regarding the alliance logos as you cannot transfer any and all copyrights because it's not permitted by law.

Also, players would like to own the works they've created and not hand it over to CCP, which is the main issue which caused all of this.
TheMercenaryKing
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#136 - 2015-01-27 18:22:58 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Jennifer Maxwell wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
It's tempting to suggest that at this point excuses are just being made.


If I could solve this overnight, it would have been taken care of last year.

Perhaps combine two of the suggestions? Have option A, and option B.

Option A, you get to make your alliance logo out of shapes and emblems already owned by CCP, much like the corp logo design process. Ergo, it's owned by CCP, but still allows people freedom to make the logo.

Option B, the person submits a logo they designed, but must acknowledge that by submitting it to CCP and it being approved, that CCP officially own the logo now.

That way, people who don't want to give up their precious artwork can still have a logo.


This whole watermark thing just seems... I don't know. Like, is there going to be a transparent "CCP" overlaid over the emblem? Not that I don't like you guys, but that would look a little too... fake, you know?


Option A has been discussed.

Option B is not an option.



Why is B not an option?
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#137 - 2015-01-27 18:29:46 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Jennifer Maxwell wrote:

Option A, you get to make your alliance logo out of shapes and emblems already owned by CCP, much like the corp logo design process. Ergo, it's owned by CCP, but still allows people freedom to make the logo.


Option A has been discussed.


Option A would be easier to apply to ships... hint hint.

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#138 - 2015-01-27 18:36:59 UTC
TheMercenaryKing wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Jennifer Maxwell wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
It's tempting to suggest that at this point excuses are just being made.


If I could solve this overnight, it would have been taken care of last year.

Perhaps combine two of the suggestions? Have option A, and option B.

Option A, you get to make your alliance logo out of shapes and emblems already owned by CCP, much like the corp logo design process. Ergo, it's owned by CCP, but still allows people freedom to make the logo.

Option B, the person submits a logo they designed, but must acknowledge that by submitting it to CCP and it being approved, that CCP officially own the logo now.

That way, people who don't want to give up their precious artwork can still have a logo.


This whole watermark thing just seems... I don't know. Like, is there going to be a transparent "CCP" overlaid over the emblem? Not that I don't like you guys, but that would look a little too... fake, you know?


Option A has been discussed.

Option B is not an option.



Why is B not an option?



B is basically what the situation was. And is problematic with certain countries.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Eojek
Starlight Moly
#139 - 2015-01-27 19:21:00 UTC
A couple of simple suggestions about copywrite.

1. The artist always holds the copywrite to their work.

2. The artist must prove it is their own origional work before issuing a license to CCP for mass media purposes (print, tv, New Media).

3. Legal can write up a license agreement that allows for full use by CCP for whatever CCP intends to do with the artwork. CCP will never own the copywrite, but does hold a reasonable license. Noterized letters on the behalf of the submitter help.


The best course of action I could possibly see is that CCP set an intern down at a workstation and have them cook up iconography that is artistically unique and differing from the corporate iconography.

Another method is simply for the alliance to take on the logo of it's founding corporation. Problem solved.
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#140 - 2015-01-27 20:50:14 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Grivan wrote:
I have followed various of these threads, particularly the long running one following the dev blog. I'm not entirely sure what we are arguing about any more.

Originally CCP said they had to own all the content packaged in the their game, people pointed out that with regard to logos this is technically impossible or difficult (the German copyright law, for example). CCP have taken that away and come back with this proposal - correct me if I have mis-understood this:

A player creates a logo, they own this logo. They upload the logo, CCP modifies it (watermark, border, kangaroo, whatever) and they own this derivative work. The derivative is used within the game and all official CCP shebang. The original artist is free to use their original logo as they like (or to use the derivative, I imagine). One question raised was if the ownership of the original and the derivative are truly separate?


This is basically it, yes.

Except you didn't address the question about whether the original work and the derivative are actually separate. Creating the derivative of the logo might not actually resolve any of your legal issues. A license to use would. The license to use that you're continuously ignoring.

Never once have I seen you respond to anyone with specific points about why the irrevocable, unlimited license to use wouldn't work.