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Okay, so, seriously.

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ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#21 - 2015-01-24 02:45:17 UTC
Removed some off topic posts.

ISD Dorrim Barstorlode

Senior Lead

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department
Noriko Mai
#22 - 2015-01-24 02:46:25 UTC
doh... ISDs... Ugh

"Meh.." - Albert Einstein
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#23 - 2015-01-24 02:49:02 UTC
Noriko Mai wrote:
doh... ISDs... Ugh

That should at least quell the "i4bl" people, unless this topic (somehow) gets out of hand.
I don't anticipate that happening, since who really fundamentally disagrees with this?
Noriko Mai
#24 - 2015-01-24 02:56:43 UTC
Primary This Rifter wrote:
Noriko Mai wrote:
doh... ISDs... Ugh

That should at least quell the "i4bl" people, unless this topic (somehow) gets out of hand.
I don't anticipate that happening, since who really fundamentally disagrees with this?

He deleted a post of a guy saying that the MPAA may be a reason and my post insulting him for his ignorance bacause US law =! law of other other countries.

"Meh.." - Albert Einstein
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#25 - 2015-01-24 02:59:25 UTC
Yeah, I saw.
Noriko Mai
#26 - 2015-01-24 03:19:19 UTC
I really don't understand why this is so difficult. Use the freakin logos. If someone does bad things with them and opens a **** agency with that logo, then remove it from the game. They can patch this little things in no time. That's what all the work with the launcher and background tech was for, for gods sake.

"Meh.." - Albert Einstein
John E Normus
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#27 - 2015-01-24 04:07:27 UTC
All we want is to have James 315's face as our logo.

If CCP decides to sell merch with his face on it, that's perfectly acceptable to us.

Between Ignorance and Wisdom
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#28 - 2015-01-24 04:19:15 UTC
Just to chime in here:

No-one wants to stop you doing stuff with your logos. There's just a few legal and technical matters to deal with. Taking longer than anyone wants, but it's not being ignored, and it's not being swept under the rug.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#29 - 2015-01-24 04:26:28 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Just to chime in here:

No-one wants to stop you doing stuff with your logos. There's just a few legal and technical matters to deal with. Taking longer than anyone wants, but it's not being ignored, and it's not being swept under the rug.

Riiiiiiiiiight.
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#30 - 2015-01-24 04:45:02 UTC
Grivan wrote:
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Games workshop got around this problem by saying that any imagery or art or modifications done within the context of their fiction or game universe automatically becomes their property upon submission. It was a blanket snatch&grab tactic but under british law apparently the only way to prevent arguments like this.

CCP could look in to it like that. The service (servers) are hosted in the UK so by all rights they're subject to british law. While an amendment to their policy could not retroactively allow them to take ownership of things already submitted it will allow players to submit new stuff but under the knowledge that CCP takes control of it for marketing purposes.


I'm no copyright lawyer, but copyright is granted instantly when a work is created and is applicable to the country it is created in (that is, the artist who makes the logo in Germany is subject to German copyright law, that it is then uploaded to a CCP server in the UK is irrelevant). I use Germany as an example because people pointed out that under German law it is impossible to transfer copyright, other than following death - thus CCP could never, ever claim copyright over an artwork created by someone resident in Germany; even if they wanted CCP to have it.

You also can't claim copyright by just saying "by giving this to us, you also give us the copyright".

The solution involving adding a watermark/brand effectively generates two artworks I believe, thus giving CCP the right to one and the artist the right to the other.


None of that matters if their TOS gets updated to show a term such as:

"from now on any artwork submitted to, or through, our product for use in game is treated as the intellectual property of CCP just as if the submittal had been produced by an employee of CCP."

just like GW did with it's art submissions and story submissions. By default any submission to a GW owned site or product is treated as being waivered over to their ownership and it is a thing you sign an agreeance on before submitting it. Just saiyan. Never heard of this policy being retracted which means it's likely still enforced.

which would cover them nicely on all grounds including german companies, most likely, who would have provisions in their law for design departments to cover this exact scenario. And if germany doesn't then I would question "why". Much like the conspiracy surrounding 1960's vehicle designs only emerging now because their designers held the IP over the design but are almost universally dead from old age. CCP doesn't "have" to wait that long.

The only question here is the PR shitstorm that would boil out of the earth like a gigantic hurricane of 7highs and only 1 neut.

My favourite part is people copywriting unsolicited artworks of 40k, like as if they could copywrite artworks involving another parties IP and iconography like it was their own? Excuse me? It's not like these people are allowed to plagiarise and copywrite any other medium why do artists feel like they're special.
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#31 - 2015-01-24 05:02:40 UTC  |  Edited by: DaReaper
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Grivan wrote:
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Games workshop got around this problem by saying that any imagery or art or modifications done within the context of their fiction or game universe automatically becomes their property upon submission. It was a blanket snatch&grab tactic but under british law apparently the only way to prevent arguments like this.

CCP could look in to it like that. The service (servers) are hosted in the UK so by all rights they're subject to british law. While an amendment to their policy could not retroactively allow them to take ownership of things already submitted it will allow players to submit new stuff but under the knowledge that CCP takes control of it for marketing purposes.


I'm no copyright lawyer, but copyright is granted instantly when a work is created and is applicable to the country it is created in (that is, the artist who makes the logo in Germany is subject to German copyright law, that it is then uploaded to a CCP server in the UK is irrelevant). I use Germany as an example because people pointed out that under German law it is impossible to transfer copyright, other than following death - thus CCP could never, ever claim copyright over an artwork created by someone resident in Germany; even if they wanted CCP to have it.

You also can't claim copyright by just saying "by giving this to us, you also give us the copyright".

The solution involving adding a watermark/brand effectively generates two artworks I believe, thus giving CCP the right to one and the artist the right to the other.


None of that matters if their TOS gets updated to show a term such as:

"from now on any artwork submitted to, or through, our product for use in game is treated as the intellectual property of CCP just as if the submittal had been produced by an employee of CCP."

just like GW did with it's art submissions and story submissions. By default any submission to a GW owned site or product is treated as being waivered over to their ownership and it is a thing you sign an agreeance on before submitting it. Just saiyan. Never heard of this policy being retracted which means it's likely still enforced.

which would cover them nicely on all grounds including german companies, most likely, who would have provisions in their law for design departments to cover this exact scenario. And if germany doesn't then I would question "why". Much like the conspiracy surrounding 1960's vehicle designs only emerging now because their designers held the IP over the design but are almost universally dead from old age. CCP doesn't "have" to wait that long.

The only question here is the PR shitstorm that would boil out of the earth like a gigantic hurricane of 7highs and only 1 neut.

My favourite part is people copywriting unsolicited artworks of 40k, like as if they could copywrite artworks involving another parties IP and iconography like it was their own? Excuse me? It's not like these people are allowed to plagiarise and copywrite any other medium why do artists feel like they're special.



As already stated this is exactly what ccp did. And the players freaked out. The problem is, CCP was trying to expand there brand, like comics and the tv series. If they show the logo's they have in game on a tv show, and someone else owns the copy write, CCP and whoever produces the show and distributes it opens them self up for a lawsuit. In addition, they have caught people submitting copy write images, when someone found said images in eve and the owner threaten to sue. You can all sit here and say 'just use them in x way' but CCP has to protect themselves legally, cause all it takes is one jackass to **** it up for everyone. One guy who goes 'hey i made that logo for my alliance in eve! that's cool.. but uh.. i want money... ccp is making xxx off my logo... i see it on eve shirts and items... i need money... *sue*' CCP is just trying to save there own asses right now, so they are trying to enforce their ip as they expand. Give them the time to work out all the kinks.

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.
Kaelynne Rose
WTB Somalians
#32 - 2015-01-24 05:11:42 UTC
DaReaper wrote:
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Grivan wrote:
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Games workshop got around this problem by saying that any imagery or art or modifications done within the context of their fiction or game universe automatically becomes their property upon submission. It was a blanket snatch&grab tactic but under british law apparently the only way to prevent arguments like this.

CCP could look in to it like that. The service (servers) are hosted in the UK so by all rights they're subject to british law. While an amendment to their policy could not retroactively allow them to take ownership of things already submitted it will allow players to submit new stuff but under the knowledge that CCP takes control of it for marketing purposes.


I'm no copyright lawyer, but copyright is granted instantly when a work is created and is applicable to the country it is created in (that is, the artist who makes the logo in Germany is subject to German copyright law, that it is then uploaded to a CCP server in the UK is irrelevant). I use Germany as an example because people pointed out that under German law it is impossible to transfer copyright, other than following death - thus CCP could never, ever claim copyright over an artwork created by someone resident in Germany; even if they wanted CCP to have it.

You also can't claim copyright by just saying "by giving this to us, you also give us the copyright".

The solution involving adding a watermark/brand effectively generates two artworks I believe, thus giving CCP the right to one and the artist the right to the other.


None of that matters if their TOS gets updated to show a term such as:

"from now on any artwork submitted to, or through, our product for use in game is treated as the intellectual property of CCP just as if the submittal had been produced by an employee of CCP."

just like GW did with it's art submissions and story submissions. By default any submission to a GW owned site or product is treated as being waivered over to their ownership and it is a thing you sign an agreeance on before submitting it. Just saiyan. Never heard of this policy being retracted which means it's likely still enforced.

which would cover them nicely on all grounds including german companies, most likely, who would have provisions in their law for design departments to cover this exact scenario. And if germany doesn't then I would question "why". Much like the conspiracy surrounding 1960's vehicle designs only emerging now because their designers held the IP over the design but are almost universally dead from old age. CCP doesn't "have" to wait that long.

The only question here is the PR shitstorm that would boil out of the earth like a gigantic hurricane of 7highs and only 1 neut.

My favourite part is people copywriting unsolicited artworks of 40k, like as if they could copywrite artworks involving another parties IP and iconography like it was their own? Excuse me? It's not like these people are allowed to plagiarise and copywrite any other medium why do artists feel like they're special.



As already stated this is exactly what ccp did. And the players freaked out. The problem is, CCP was trying to expand there brand, like comics and the tv series. If they show the logo's they have in game on a tv show, and someone else owns the copy write, CCP and whoever produces the show and distributes it opens them self up for a lawsuit. In addition, they have caught people submitting copy write images, when someone found said images in eve and the owner threaten to sue. You can all sit here and say 'just use them in x way' but CCP has to protect themselves legally, cause all it takes is one jackass to **** it up for everyone. One guy who goes 'hey i made that logo for my alliance in eve! that's cool.. but uh.. i want money... ccp is making xxx off my logo... i see it on eve shirts and items... i need money... *sue*' CCP is just trying to save there own asses right now, so they are trying to enforce their ip as they expand. Give them the time to work out all the kinks.


Its been ONE YEAR since they said theyre lawyers were gonna look into it and fix it and update it and let us know... dude look at the tthread dates, they had enough time to go2 law school and graduate new lawyers to write it.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#33 - 2015-01-24 05:24:59 UTC
Primary This Rifter wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Just to chime in here:

No-one wants to stop you doing stuff with your logos. There's just a few legal and technical matters to deal with. Taking longer than anyone wants, but it's not being ignored, and it's not being swept under the rug.

Riiiiiiiiiight.



This is me talking as a CSM member, who knows what's happening.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
d0cTeR9
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#34 - 2015-01-24 05:45:43 UTC
Legalities take time... i'm in the US, waiting on some legal stuff for a business... counting 6 month now.

Yep... legalities suck.

Been around since the beginning.
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#35 - 2015-01-24 05:46:54 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Primary This Rifter wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Just to chime in here:

No-one wants to stop you doing stuff with your logos. There's just a few legal and technical matters to deal with. Taking longer than anyone wants, but it's not being ignored, and it's not being swept under the rug.

Riiiiiiiiiight.



This is me talking as a CSM member, who knows what's happening.

I'm sure you know what CCP told you. Whether that means you know what's happening is anybody's guess.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#36 - 2015-01-24 05:55:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Steve Ronuken
An adult who hasn't been keeping up to date on released information

http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/csm/CSM9Summer_Minutes_2014.pdf

There's a whole section on logos.

(as a side issue, the Senate doesn't give a rats ass about laws in other countries. CCP has to.)

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#37 - 2015-01-24 06:08:53 UTC
Yeah, something they talked about with you six months ago and never bothered mentioning to us is definitely up to date.
If they thought it was such a great solution, why haven't they come forward with it?

I was aware of that, by the way, but I think it's an awful solution that sidesteps the important point: CCP doesn't need ownership. We don't need to add watermarks (which are inevitably going to look terrible, especially if we start putting the logos on ships).
Serene Repose
#38 - 2015-01-24 07:12:33 UTC
Orlacc wrote:
I thought a lawyer ran your outfit.
So you want to sell stuff that's not yours and CCP won't let you? Cool.

Q: What's the difference between an accountant and a lawyer?
A: Accountants know they're boring.

We must accommodate the idiocracy.
Pok Nibin
Doomheim
#39 - 2015-01-24 07:15:36 UTC
Some "wow" facts. (Not the game *shudders*. When you go, "Wow!")

People who create obscene things always claim they aren't obscene.

People who create offensive things always accuse the offended of being "too sensitive."

People who create dumb things are too stupid to realize that's what they've done.

Someone has to excercise some sort of control or the inmates will be running the asylum.

(To quote Serene) TYVM. Have a nice day!Cool

The right to free speech doesn't automatically carry with it the right to be taken seriously.
Baneken
Arctic Light Inc.
Arctic Light
#40 - 2015-01-24 07:55:00 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
An adult who hasn't been keeping up to date on released information

http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/csm/CSM9Summer_Minutes_2014.pdf

There's a whole section on logos.

(as a side issue, the Senate doesn't give a rats ass about laws in other countries. CCP has to.)


I think page 94 pretty much sums it up which is that copyright laws don't make a difference between the next Monalisa and pixel art submitted for a computer game.