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Latest CSM notes : Rumours of attribute points/implants being removed.

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Leannor
State War Academy
Caldari State
#121 - 2015-01-26 10:59:41 UTC
Louise Beethoven wrote:
Do it CCP, remove attribute points. However everyone should get 2,700sp/h training across the board, it's the only fair way to do it.


and historical purchases from the last 6months, or so (where benifit form isk spent has not been seen properly), should be refunded pro rata.

"Lykouleon wrote:

STOP TOUCHING ICONIC SHIP PARTS"
Dominique Vasilkovsky
#122 - 2015-01-26 11:06:08 UTC
About time and I hope they wipe the learning implants at the same time, they are as good for the game as the old learning skills were... I can't wait to use pirate implants again but without the SP/h penalty.

Just give us a flat 2700SP/h going in to a pool like Dust where we then just can dish out the SP to skills whenever we fancy.
McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
#123 - 2015-01-26 13:19:47 UTC  |  Edited by: McChicken Combo HalfMayo
Gregor Parud wrote:
The Connoisseur wrote:
I don't see this as a bad thing at all. As it stands the quickest way to skill up efficiently is to not play the game and sit in a station with +4's/+5's to try to catchup in the sp rat race that so many new players see separating them from veterans. The game heavily rewards you for efficiency when it comes to your sp allocation. Attributes along with learning implants create a gameplay adversion, not a risk adversion. It is a system where the rich who do nothing win. EVE should be about fun risk, not a game of defend your mandatory learning implants so you can skill up fast enough to catch up and do what you want to do. I for one would love to not continue wasting jc timers and living by said timers in order to skill up at a decent rate.


There is no SP rat race, it's only an SP rat race if you want it to be or perceive it that way. What you're saying is nothing other than "we should all start at lvl 90, the levelling system is a rat race and frankly it's not important. The only important thing is the end game because I'm one of those people who want to min-max, but without the min and I just don't understand how one could do well without being maxed out".

Not we should all start at lvl 90. We should all progress to lvl 90 at the same pace. New players quicker perhaps.

New players are affected most adversely by the current system. They are already behind in SP and that will forever be the case unless they purchase a character. To make matters worse, they are in less of a position than older players in being able to afford to replace lost learning implants when podded.

Right now the system benefits veterans over newbies. It should be the opposite. No learning implants and an expansion on the learning boosters so they work for closer to a year (with diminishing returns over that time).

There are all our dominion

Gate camps: "Its like the lowsec watercooler, just with explosions and boose" - Ralph King-Griffin
Deck Cadelanne
CAStabouts
#124 - 2015-01-26 13:39:15 UTC
McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote:


New players are affected most adversely by the current system. They are already behind in SP and that will forever be the case unless they purchase a character. To make matters worse, they are in less of a position than older players in being able to afford to replace lost learning implants when podded.

Right now the system benefits veterans over newbies. It should be the opposite. No learning implants and an expansion on the learning boosters so they work for closer to a year (with diminishing returns over that time).



Now wait one damned second...that might actually kind of sort of partially...make sense.

Limited duration/value SP training rate boosts for new characters ought to help with retention.

Getting rid of learning implants, maybe...but you need to leave attributes as variable and occasionally re-mappable. People are not identical, so players ought to have some choice on what aspects of their character to enhance relative to others.

"When the going gets weird, the weird turn professional."

- Hunter S. Thompson
The Connoisseur
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#125 - 2015-01-26 14:16:06 UTC  |  Edited by: The Connoisseur
Gregor Parud wrote:
The Connoisseur wrote:
I don't see this as a bad thing at all. As it stands the quickest way to skill up efficiently is to not play the game and sit in a station with +4's/+5's to try to catchup in the sp rat race that so many new players see separating them from veterans. The game heavily rewards you for efficiency when it comes to your sp allocation. Attributes along with learning implants create a gameplay adversion, not a risk adversion. It is a system where the rich who do nothing win. EVE should be about fun risk, not a game of defend your mandatory learning implants so you can skill up fast enough to catch up and do what you want to do. I for one would love to not continue wasting jc timers and living by said timers in order to skill up at a decent rate.


There is no SP rat race, it's only an SP rat race if you want it to be or perceive it that way. What you're saying is nothing other than "we should all start at lvl 90, the levelling system is a rat race and frankly it's not important. The only important thing is the end game because I'm one of those people who want to min-max, but without the min and I just don't understand how one could do well without being maxed out".


Uh, no, that isn't what I said. What I said is pretty plain and clear in the quote box at the top of your post. Pls no strawman/slippery slope/He wants WoW. The current system rewards establishing an expensive implant learning clone and gameplay adversion with faster progression than those who choose to play and are newer and can't afford to risk/buy implants just to skill up and a decent rate. This is bad. SkillIng shouldn't favor gameplay adversion. It should be even ground to those who actually undock and go out and have a blast. Rate of progression should never have pay-and-don't-play-to-win barriers, and that is what it currently is.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#126 - 2015-01-26 14:25:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Gregor Parud
McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
The Connoisseur wrote:
I don't see this as a bad thing at all. As it stands the quickest way to skill up efficiently is to not play the game and sit in a station with +4's/+5's to try to catchup in the sp rat race that so many new players see separating them from veterans. The game heavily rewards you for efficiency when it comes to your sp allocation. Attributes along with learning implants create a gameplay adversion, not a risk adversion. It is a system where the rich who do nothing win. EVE should be about fun risk, not a game of defend your mandatory learning implants so you can skill up fast enough to catch up and do what you want to do. I for one would love to not continue wasting jc timers and living by said timers in order to skill up at a decent rate.


There is no SP rat race, it's only an SP rat race if you want it to be or perceive it that way. What you're saying is nothing other than "we should all start at lvl 90, the levelling system is a rat race and frankly it's not important. The only important thing is the end game because I'm one of those people who want to min-max, but without the min and I just don't understand how one could do well without being maxed out".

Not we should all start at lvl 90. We should all progress to lvl 90 at the same pace. New players quicker perhaps.

New players are affected most adversely by the current system. They are already behind in SP and that will forever be the case unless they purchase a character. To make matters worse, they are in less of a position than older players in being able to afford to replace lost learning implants when podded.

Right now the system benefits veterans over newbies. It should be the opposite. No learning implants and an expansion on the learning boosters so they work for closer to a year (with diminishing returns over that time).



- we all should get isk at the same rate too! No matter what you do, which choices you make, we all should get the same isk/hour. Older players had enough time to make isk so it's really for the benefit of new players that we all have the same income.

- this whole racial ships thing is just terrible, if I train another race than you then that's just not cool, lets remove races and only have one left so we all train the same one. Older players had the time to train all four of them, new players haven't yet and it's just not fair.

- everyone should be able to moon mine the cool moons, I mean older players have had the time to make friends something new players still have to do, this is clearly not fair and it would just be easier for new players if they could moon mine.

- why can older players have the really cool ships (super caps are awesome yo), have all the friends and have had the time to conquer 0.0. Clearly this is not fair on new players, why can't they fly Titans. I'd say we remove all T2 ships, all capitals and remove corporations., alliances and whatnot. These are all unfair advantages older players have been able to build up over time which newbies obviously haven't yet.


ALL PROGRESS AND CHOICES IN A SANDBOX MMO ARE CLEARLY A PLOT TO KEEP THE NEWBIES FROM PLAYING THE GAME!



Oh wait, no. People can make choices just fine, they can choose to optimise min-max or they can choose not to; they'll still do fine.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#127 - 2015-01-26 14:28:19 UTC
The Connoisseur wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
The Connoisseur wrote:
I don't see this as a bad thing at all. As it stands the quickest way to skill up efficiently is to not play the game and sit in a station with +4's/+5's to try to catchup in the sp rat race that so many new players see separating them from veterans. The game heavily rewards you for efficiency when it comes to your sp allocation. Attributes along with learning implants create a gameplay adversion, not a risk adversion. It is a system where the rich who do nothing win. EVE should be about fun risk, not a game of defend your mandatory learning implants so you can skill up fast enough to catch up and do what you want to do. I for one would love to not continue wasting jc timers and living by said timers in order to skill up at a decent rate.


There is no SP rat race, it's only an SP rat race if you want it to be or perceive it that way. What you're saying is nothing other than "we should all start at lvl 90, the levelling system is a rat race and frankly it's not important. The only important thing is the end game because I'm one of those people who want to min-max, but without the min and I just don't understand how one could do well without being maxed out".


Uh, no, that isn't what I said. What I said is pretty plain and clear in the quote box at the top of your post. Pls no strawman/slippery slope/He wants WoW. The current system rewards establishing an expensive implant learning clone and gameplay adversion with faster progression than those who choose to play and are newer and can't afford to risk/buy implants just to skill up and a decent rate. This is bad. SkillIng shouldn't favor gameplay adversion. It should be even ground to those who actually undock and go out and have a blast. Rate of progression should never have pay-and-don't-play-to-win barriers, and that is what it currently is.


No, it doesn't reward that because.... that person isn't actually playing the game and having fun. QED.


People can choose, play the game without worrying too much about how you're not maxing your sp/h and having fun doing so OR play the min max game and... do nothing for a while. How is that not balanced?
ISD Decoy
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#128 - 2015-01-26 14:29:29 UTC
I have removed a couple off-topic posts. Please stay on topic.

Quote:
27. Off-topic posting is prohibited.

Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued to the off-topic poster.

ISD Decoy

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department
Incestuous Criticism
#129 - 2015-01-26 14:42:03 UTC
[quote=New players are affected most adversely by the current system. They are already behind in SP and that will forever be the case unless they purchase a character. To make matters worse, they are in less of a position than older players in being able to afford to replace lost learning implants when podded.

Right now the system benefits veterans over newbies. It should be the opposite. No learning implants and an expansion on the learning boosters so they work for closer to a year (with diminishing returns over that time).[/quote]

You know what boo hoo. I maybe older than you, I have been in the work force longer and get paid more, but you know what thats not right. Therefore employers should change the conditions so that when you start you should immediately catchup to me.

Are you serious of course when you start a game years after everyone else you are going to be behind the eight ball.
Do they need to change the game so that you can be the same within a year or so as to someone that has played for many years.

And guess what, there are plenty of older players that still get killed and podded by a noob.
The Connoisseur
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#130 - 2015-01-26 14:48:00 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
The Connoisseur wrote:
I don't see this as a bad thing at all. As it stands the quickest way to skill up efficiently is to not play the game and sit in a station with +4's/+5's to try to catchup in the sp rat race that so many new players see separating them from veterans. The game heavily rewards you for efficiency when it comes to your sp allocation. Attributes along with learning implants create a gameplay adversion, not a risk adversion. It is a system where the rich who do nothing win. EVE should be about fun risk, not a game of defend your mandatory learning implants so you can skill up fast enough to catch up and do what you want to do. I for one would love to not continue wasting jc timers and living by said timers in order to skill up at a decent rate.


There is no SP rat race, it's only an SP rat race if you want it to be or perceive it that way. What you're saying is nothing other than "we should all start at lvl 90, the levelling system is a rat race and frankly it's not important. The only important thing is the end game because I'm one of those people who want to min-max, but without the min and I just don't understand how one could do well without being maxed out".

Not we should all start at lvl 90. We should all progress to lvl 90 at the same pace. New players quicker perhaps.

New players are affected most adversely by the current system. They are already behind in SP and that will forever be the case unless they purchase a character. To make matters worse, they are in less of a position than older players in being able to afford to replace lost learning implants when podded.

Right now the system benefits veterans over newbies. It should be the opposite. No learning implants and an expansion on the learning boosters so they work for closer to a year (with diminishing returns over that time).



- we all should get isk at the same rate too! No matter what you do, which choices you make, we all should get the same isk/hour. Older players had enough time to make isk so it's really for the benefit of new players that we all have the same income.

- this whole racial ships thing is just terrible, if I train another race than you then that's just not cool, lets remove races and only have one left so we all train the same one. Older players had the time to train all four of them, new players haven't yet and it's just not fair.

- everyone should be able to moon mine the cool moons, I mean older players have had the time to make friends something new players still have to do, this is clearly not fair and it would just be easier for new players if they could moon mine.

- why can older players have the really cool ships (super caps are awesome yo), have all the friends and have had the time to conquer 0.0. Clearly this is not fair on new players, why can't they fly Titans. I'd say we remove all T2 ships, all capitals and remove corporations., alliances and whatnot. These are all unfair advantages older players have been able to build up over time which newbies obviously haven't yet.


ALL PROGRESS AND CHOICES IN A SANDBOX MMO ARE CLEARLY A PLOT TO KEEP THE NEWBIES FROM PLAYING THE GAME!



Oh wait, no. People can make choices just fine, they can choose to optimise min-max or they can choose not to; they'll still do fine.


Do you realize that every response you give is a strawman/slippery slope and has nothing to do with what we are talking about?
Dominique Vasilkovsky
#131 - 2015-01-26 14:52:38 UTC
Incestuous Criticism wrote:
You know what boo hoo. I maybe older than you, I have been in the work force longer and get paid more, but you know what thats not right. Therefore employers should change the conditions so that when you start you should immediately catchup to me.

Are you serious of course when you start a game years after everyone else you are going to be behind the eight ball.
Do they need to change the game so that you can be the same within a year or so as to someone that has played for many years.

And guess what, there are plenty of older players that still get killed and podded by a noob.

After nearly 9 years and 190m+ SP I still say go for it, the attributes, learning skills and learning implants were a bad idea from day one.

Even if new players were given 50m SP I wouldn't be worried, it is the experience and reputation that counts in EVE.
Memphis Baas
#132 - 2015-01-26 14:55:02 UTC
Louise Beethoven wrote:
Do it CCP, remove attribute points. However everyone should get 2,700sp/h training across the board, it's the only fair way to do it.


Why not make the server-side calculations and the newbie tutorials a lot simpler, and just give 1 point per second (3600/h).
Incestuous Criticism
#133 - 2015-01-26 15:02:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Incestuous Criticism
If CCP determine that the attributes are old and redundent then great. All for it. Lets not stand in the way of progress.
But to say lets remove them because it is too complex for new players to grasp and it is unfair, well then there are many things that will need to change about EVE because guess what... it is a complex game.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#134 - 2015-01-26 15:14:25 UTC
The Connoisseur wrote:
Do you realize that every response you give is a strawman/slippery slope and has nothing to do with what we are talking about?



They're all similar to your "New players are affected most adversely by the current system. They are already behind in SP and that will forever be the case unless they purchase a character. To make matters worse, they are in less of a position than older players in being able to afford to replace lost learning implants when podded".

I'll agree that my list is silly, just as your logic is in this regard. That's the point.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#135 - 2015-01-26 15:17:04 UTC
Olive branch time:


We remove implants, we remove remaps. BUT, we don't get compensated for the loss of training speed through increased base attribs. So they stay 19-20 attrib points.

That way everyone has the same learning speed and all is fine.
Aralyn Cormallen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#136 - 2015-01-26 15:20:43 UTC
Memphis Baas wrote:
Louise Beethoven wrote:
Do it CCP, remove attribute points. However everyone should get 2,700sp/h training across the board, it's the only fair way to do it.


Why not make the server-side calculations and the newbie tutorials a lot simpler, and just give 1 point per second (3600/h).


Would you like a free supercap, some faction modules, and a T2 BPO or two with that insane handout?
Chaotix Morwen
Church Of BDSM
#137 - 2015-01-26 15:32:27 UTC
Why is everybody obsessed with removing choices from this game? Learning implants have always given people the choice of risk vs reward, you people are essentially asking for the reward without the risk.
Also im sick of this new player experience stuff, "oh weve got to look after the poor pathetic newbies." Well stuff them, theyve had enough handouts, why not let more experienced/wealthy players skill faster as a reward for not being weak? Let us keep our learning implants, gives something for the newie to aspire to.

Btw by the time your so desperate for cutting down your skill que you have more than enough isk to get the +5s and lose em several times over.
Deacon Abox
Black Eagle5
#138 - 2015-01-26 15:36:12 UTC
Ugh Can't believe this is actually being talked about. Have unintended consequences and ripple effects been thought out? It would affect the rationale for jump clones for instance. Why would anyone even bother to grind standings to get jump clones anymore (yes I know there are other ways to get jump clones)?

This game is trending toward easy mode. Rather dangerous trend imo. But then maybe income is hurting and the company keeps trying to get more new players by WoWing etc. It won't work because every established game encounters a new player timidity in the face of a perception of huge advantage for older players. If you construct a game with no advantage for longer play it loses vets on the other end as well.

The better approach to getting new players would be figuring out how to free up the space in the game. Then every new player can dream of a 40 acre and a mule homestead, free of the prospect of being squished by a 16-ton weight of a cap ship fleet. The current options are servitude to some Napoleonic Neckbeard/ Bot Lord, with the hope that you might lick the right asses and get a Lieutenancy and some even newer scrubs to command on his behalf.Straight

CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting off button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.

bloodknight2
Revenu.Quebec
#139 - 2015-01-26 15:37:02 UTC
I had to learn learning skill to learn faster. They removed those skills and gave everyone +5 attributes. I had to keep my clone up-to-date because getting podded would mean losing SP. CCP removed this also. Most ships were useless until CCP rebalanced them.

Right now, Eve online is more noobs friendly than ever and yet, people still whine because they want the game even "easier"? What's next, free isk every 5min so you don't have to run missions to buy your pvp ships?

I am against the removal of attribute points, but i wouldn't mind if CCP was giving us 2 or 3 remap per year. I'm trainning a new alt (began yesterday) for running mission. I know it sucks, but i won't be able to use it before a good 2-3 months. It sucks, but that's eve online and that's why i love this game.
Dominique Vasilkovsky
#140 - 2015-01-26 15:39:15 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
Olive branch time:


We remove implants, we remove remaps. BUT, we don't get compensated for the loss of training speed through increased base attribs. So they stay 19-20 attrib points.

That way everyone has the same learning speed and all is fine.

At 1800SP/h the skill training will be reduced a good 33% so it will be worse for the low SP characters as it will take even longer for them to catch up.