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Latest CSM notes : Rumours of attribute points/implants being removed.

First post First post
Author
Dominique Vasilkovsky
#161 - 2015-01-26 19:53:04 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
Dominique Vasilkovsky wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
I thought this thread was about not giving older, more wealthy players, and advantage so I'm sure everyone will agree to a no remaps, no implants solution, regardless of the base attribs as it creates equality? What's wrong with the base 19-20 attribs?

What I can do after 9 years with an average of 2447SP/h will take a new starter a good 12+ years to do due to a lower speed cap (1800SP/h).

If the cap is set to 2700SP/h for everyone that same new starter would be at my current level after only 8 years.



No, your logic is flawed. I thought this was about evening the playing field, removing implants and remaps? Regardless of what everyone's SP/h will be set to, newbies will never catch up to older players so given that it really doesn't matter what the sp/h is.


Or... could it be... just perhaps... that this isn't at all about equality, but about how you and everyone else want 2700SP/h without any of the downsides? That this whole "nonono, it's better for the game and the newbies, THINK OF THE NEWBIES!" is just a lie?

SAY IT AINT SO!

No it isn't, what I'm saying is that it would be stupid to have new players train slower than we did. Even if you give new players 5000SP/h I still will run out of trainable skills before they catch up. They will never catch up to the people starting a decade earlier. However that isn't a good reason to make them suffer two decades for the same progress though.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#162 - 2015-01-26 20:05:02 UTC
Dominique Vasilkovsky wrote:
They will never catch up to the people starting a decade earlier.


Exactly, so it doesn't matter what you do or change. Also, how is this a problem?
Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#163 - 2015-01-26 20:11:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Frostys Virpio
Gregor Parud wrote:
Dominique Vasilkovsky wrote:
They will never catch up to the people starting a decade earlier.


Exactly, so it doesn't matter what you do or change. Also, how is this a problem?


I think the point is that if it took player X 1,5 years to get let's say a perfect super carrier train on an average mappping and no implants, then it should not require player Y "1,5 years + something" to get it after any change. The newbies are already swamped with so much things they know nothing about getting optimal sp/hours even if they are cross training while learning WTF this game has to offer should not be seen as bad IMO.

Underline edit after peeps made me realise how this needed more words to actually make sense in a way I see it. The 1,5 years example is completely pulled out of my ass as I never even bothered training for a super but it's a good example as it's a long train.
Shizuken
Venerated Stars
#164 - 2015-01-26 20:14:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Shizuken
Well, I would be disappointed but my main question would be, if the attributes are to be fixed, and attribute implants removed, will the default SP per hour be lower, the same, or higher?

I actually appreciate being able to spend money to train faster. It doesn't keep me from PvP at all really, jump clones are easy to get. PvP for its own sake doesn't interest me much anyway, it is wasteful and uninteresting.
Incestuous Criticism
#165 - 2015-01-26 20:14:24 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
Dominique Vasilkovsky wrote:
They will never catch up to the people starting a decade earlier.


Exactly, so it doesn't matter what you do or change. Also, how is this a problem?


I think the point is that if it took player X 1,5 years to get let's say a perfect super carrier train, then it should not require player Y "1,5 years + something" to get it after any change. The newbies are already swamped with so much things they know nothing about getting optimal sp/hours even if they are cross training while learning WTF this game has to offer should not be seen as bad IMO.


Im sorry, how do you think it will take player Y 1.5 years + something to train the same skill. Maybe they just need to make better decisions. I have got skills in parts where I think, bugger I wish I didnt train that.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#166 - 2015-01-26 20:17:25 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
Dominique Vasilkovsky wrote:
They will never catch up to the people starting a decade earlier.


Exactly, so it doesn't matter what you do or change. Also, how is this a problem?


I think the point is that if it took player X 1,5 years to get let's say a perfect super carrier train, then it should not require player Y "1,5 years + something" to get it after any change. The newbies are already swamped with so much things they know nothing about getting optimal sp/hours even if they are cross training while learning WTF this game has to offer should not be seen as bad IMO.


Why not? How does it make sense to say "well, implants and remaps suck" and then go "if you change attribs, don't forget to add enough to make up for the fact we don't have implants and remaps anymore and please, assume max efficiency of course". These people who post in this thread are all posting for the betterment of the game dontyouknow, to make everyone equal so that newbies aren't left out of the loop.

It has nothing at all to do with how these folks want the benefits of remaps and implants without the downsides of losing the implants and sometimes having to train off-remap. I mean, that's what they keep saying. It also has nothing to do with how they think that skill points is a race, and that it somehow matters.

If you care about a distant long goal, put in the effort and risk to get there faster. If you aren't willing to do that then you'll get there slower. How is that "bad for the game"?
Brigadine Ferathine
Presumed Dead Enterprises
Brave Collective
#167 - 2015-01-26 20:24:04 UTC
I mean the risk for newer players is MUCH higher with the implant system because we need the speed boost. A set of BASIC +4's runs about 130million. That is insane. Older players don't need that boost. Why make noobs take more risk than older players? It is backwards logic.
Aralyn Cormallen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#168 - 2015-01-26 20:24:31 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:

Why not? How does it make sense to say "well, implants and remaps suck" and then go "if you change attribs, don't forget to add enough to make up for the fact we don't have implants and remaps anymore and please, assume max efficiency of course". These people who post in this thread are all posting for the betterment of the game dontyouknow, to make everyone equal so that newbies aren't left out of the loop.

It has nothing at all to do with how these folks want the benefits of remaps and implants without the downsides of losing the implants and sometimes having to train off-remap. I mean, that's what they keep saying. It also has nothing to do with how they think that skill points is a race, and that it somehow matters.

If you care about a distant long goal, put in the effort and risk to get there faster. If you aren't willing to do that then you'll get there slower. How is that "bad for the game"?


Yeah, it is kinda funny the posters argueing that naturally the default value should be the same as a perfect remap with +5's implanted. Not self-motivated, not a bit Blink.
Solops Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#169 - 2015-01-26 20:38:27 UTC
Dominique Vasilkovsky wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
Dominique Vasilkovsky wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
I thought this thread was about not giving older, more wealthy players, and advantage so I'm sure everyone will agree to a no remaps, no implants solution, regardless of the base attribs as it creates equality? What's wrong with the base 19-20 attribs?

What I can do after 9 years with an average of 2447SP/h will take a new starter a good 12+ years to do due to a lower speed cap (1800SP/h).

If the cap is set to 2700SP/h for everyone that same new starter would be at my current level after only 8 years.



No, your logic is flawed. I thought this was about evening the playing field, removing implants and remaps? Regardless of what everyone's SP/h will be set to, newbies will never catch up to older players so given that it really doesn't matter what the sp/h is.


Or... could it be... just perhaps... that this isn't at all about equality, but about how you and everyone else want 2700SP/h without any of the downsides? That this whole "nonono, it's better for the game and the newbies, THINK OF THE NEWBIES!" is just a lie?

SAY IT AINT SO!

No it isn't, what I'm saying is that it would be stupid to have new players train slower than we did. Even if you give new players 5000SP/h I still will run out of trainable skills before they catch up. They will never catch up to the people starting a decade earlier. However that isn't a good reason to make them suffer two decades for the same progress though.
I agree that is why new player start playing and give up its boring and tedious. I know I am three years into the game I will never catch up.I just cant get out because I invested so much time and money .the issue is veterans dont want to get rid of it because they invested 10 years of there lives it understandable to protect that however In my proposal you will be compensated thats pretty generous whats wrong with that?

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Incestuous Criticism
#170 - 2015-01-26 20:47:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Incestuous Criticism
Quote "I agree that is why new player start playing and give up its boring and tedious. I know I am three years into the game I will never catch up.I just cant get out because I invested so much time and money .the issue is veterans dont want to get rid of it because they invested 10 years of there lives it understandable to protect that however In my proposal you will be compensated thats pretty generous whats wrong with that?"

Really, so plugging in implants is boring and tedious, having attributes behind the scene that you very rarely play with is boring and tedious.

Then you must find PI the same, just a farmville clicking, WH travel the same because you have to constantly scan down wholes etc, same thing over and over again. Then PVP, OMG, what happens when you dont get a fight, perhaps you have to travel 20 jumps just to find a target. FFS no one is making you play and don't let the door hit you in the arse as you walk out.
Solops Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#171 - 2015-01-26 20:48:07 UTC
Syn Shi wrote:
Black Dranzer wrote:
Ahh, politics.

Okay, here's what's going to happen. Attributes, remaps, and attribute implants are going to die. Regular combat implants are going to remain, but they're probably going to be rebalanced a bit to compensate for some of the missing holes.

SP will become a flat SP/H based on the current maximum, or something very close to it. In addition, expect a balancing pass for implants. They might take the opportunity to rework the bonuses a bit, but overall the system should remain superficially the same: Stick chips in your head for fighty power, get podded and lose the fighty power. Circle of life. Expect compensation in the form of LP for any implants that go missing.

I know all this because I have over a decade of studying MMOs in general and EVE in particular, and also because I have the cognitive ability required to whistle and **** at the same time.

The core of it is this: Due to a combination of tradition and greed, MMO companies like to keep you from being max level too quickly. They put up walls between newbie level and maxed out character level. Eve's skill system is different from the leveling systems you see in most MMOs, but the fundamental drive is the same.

What isn't the same, however, is the methodology. Eve's designers originally made the brilliant observation that the goal of the "grind" is too keep people from getting powerful too quickly. That is, it's a delay. It's about time. So why not make the progression system in Eve purely a question of waiting? It's a simple system, and you don't force people to do **** they don't want to in order to advance.

But see, here's the kicker. In most MMOs, progression speed is not a universal constant. There's no real hard cap on how fast you can hit 100 in WoW. I mean, in practice there is, but it's a soft sort of cap. In Eve, it's really hard and fast. But there's still some minor variance. Implants, attributes, remaps.

CCP wants to kill that variance.

Why?

Because it is a dominating force. You can always say "I'll level faster". You can always say "I'll grind more missions" or "I'll mine more Veldspar". But you can't say "I'll create more time". You can't magic any extra hours out of your ass. Which means if people are given the choice of "make the most of my only hard limited resource" or "do literally anything else", you better believe they're going to go with sitting in a station with a head full of +5s. It's the same logic that caused learning skills to get vaporized way back when, and it's just as relevant now as it was back then.

This is why the system is bad. This is why it's going to die. This is why the game will be better for it.

No, your precious hardcore sandbox is not going away. Nobody's getting free Titans in their inbox. This is not the beginning of the end, it's another step in the endless refining process. Embrace the change and realize it'll result in better living for everybody.

Or cry loudly. It doesn't make a lot of difference.


Get isk and buy a character in the bizarre with the skills already trained. There is a solution.

The Bazaar Its really Expensive And They Dont always have what You looking for and you gotta watch out for scams or you out 100billion in Isk.. HoweverCCP should have a in game store to buy toons at more reasonable prices.

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Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#172 - 2015-01-26 20:49:07 UTC
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:

Why not? How does it make sense to say "well, implants and remaps suck" and then go "if you change attribs, don't forget to add enough to make up for the fact we don't have implants and remaps anymore and please, assume max efficiency of course". These people who post in this thread are all posting for the betterment of the game dontyouknow, to make everyone equal so that newbies aren't left out of the loop.

It has nothing at all to do with how these folks want the benefits of remaps and implants without the downsides of losing the implants and sometimes having to train off-remap. I mean, that's what they keep saying. It also has nothing to do with how they think that skill points is a race, and that it somehow matters.

If you care about a distant long goal, put in the effort and risk to get there faster. If you aren't willing to do that then you'll get there slower. How is that "bad for the game"?


Yeah, it is kinda funny the posters argueing that naturally the default value should be the same as a perfect remap with +5's implanted. Not self-motivated, not a bit Blink.


It does not need to be perfect remap with +5s speed but I don't think it should be worst remap speed either. Just set it at whatever is the average and be done with it since at the end of the day, the best train speed had to use the 2 free remap so that would not be a good example either I guess. I obvioulsy didn't put enough word in my previous post as I really don't think it should be similar speed to what was achieve with perfect remap and implants.

I think a fixed SP/hours is better for newbie than variable but dependant on doing research on a game they played all of 6 hours over 2 days when they downloaded the game to try it out.
Solops Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#173 - 2015-01-26 20:52:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Solops Crendraven
Incestuous Criticism wrote:
Quote "I agree that is why new player start playing and give up its boring and tedious. I know I am three years into the game I will never catch up.I just cant get out because I invested so much time and money .the issue is veterans dont want to get rid of it because they invested 10 years of there lives it understandable to protect that however In my proposal you will be compensated thats pretty generous whats wrong with that?"

Really, so plugging in implants is boring and tedious, having attributes behind the scene that you very rarely play with is boring and tedious.

Then you must find PI the same, just a farmville clicking, WH travel the same because you have to constantly scan down wholes etc, same thing over and over again. Then PVP, OMG, what happens when you dont get a fight, perhaps you have to travel 20 jumps just to find a target. FFS no one is making you play and don't let the door hit you in the arse as you walk out.

Now That is Boring PI And Farmville.Worm hole scanning needs to be a little faster the whole waiting for probes is annoying i should be able to scan find a wormholes and jump that simple And get into a fight ASAP.But to stay on topic about Rumours Of atribute Points/implants "More Killing Less Skilling"

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Chaotix Morwen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#174 - 2015-01-26 20:54:51 UTC
Dominique Vasilkovsky wrote:
Chaotix Morwen wrote:
Why is everybody obsessed with removing choices from this game? Learning implants have always given people the choice of risk vs reward, you people are essentially asking for the reward without the risk.

I'll bet you loved the choice given back when we had learning skills to train as well.

It isn't about risk, it is about a stupid mechanic that shouldn't have been added to start with. I would happily replace my +5s with highgrade pirate implants if it wasn't for the SP/h penalty currently imposed.


The learning skills werent a choice, there wasnt the pick between SP, ship efficency or cost, it was just spend time for bonuses. With implants you can have learning implants, pirate implants or nothing at all, 3 choices which you can intermix as you wish. With choice comes risk. Just because you struggle with choices doesnt mean its a stupid mechanic.

Are you seriously saying you wont use pirate implants for the sake of 1.5 sp/m? Does that meager little sp gain mean so much as to gimp your ships?
Incestuous Criticism
#175 - 2015-01-26 20:55:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Incestuous Criticism
I know here is a crazy thought. Lets just wipe out all skill points and allow all players to start again. Then that way we can redo our skills that have been wasted on stuff that we should have put more thought into when we first started playing the game because I think it is unfair that new players have their hand held more than me.

Every time subscriptions reach an extra 1000 then every player should get an allocated skill point because we are getting more players on board this so called boring game.... Twisted
Solops Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#176 - 2015-01-26 21:02:31 UTC
Incestuous Criticism wrote:
I know here is a crazy thought. Lets just wipe out all skill points and allow all players to start again. Then that way we can redo our skills that have been wasted on stuff that we should have put more thought into when we first started playing the game because I think it is unfair that new players have their hand held more than me.

Every time subscriptions reach an extra 1000 then every player should get an allocated skill point because we are getting more players on board this so called boring game.... Twisted

Actually Thats agreat Idea a option to reset our skills points they do that in LOL that is why they are so sucessfull maybe CCP should adapt that Businees Model.Sometimes the risky crazy Idea are the best "Fortune favors the Bold"

Moving To Las Vegas Watch Me Play Poker! enter link description here

Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#177 - 2015-01-26 21:09:56 UTC
Solops Crendraven wrote:
Incestuous Criticism wrote:
I know here is a crazy thought. Lets just wipe out all skill points and allow all players to start again. Then that way we can redo our skills that have been wasted on stuff that we should have put more thought into when we first started playing the game because I think it is unfair that new players have their hand held more than me.

Every time subscriptions reach an extra 1000 then every player should get an allocated skill point because we are getting more players on board this so called boring game.... Twisted

Actually Thats agreat Idea a option to reset our skills points they do that in LOL that is why they are so sucessfull maybe CCP should adapt that Businees Model.Sometimes the risky crazy Idea are the best "Fortune favors the Bold"


Fortune favours the smart, it wouldn't help you.
Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#178 - 2015-01-26 21:18:08 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
Solops Crendraven wrote:
Incestuous Criticism wrote:
I know here is a crazy thought. Lets just wipe out all skill points and allow all players to start again. Then that way we can redo our skills that have been wasted on stuff that we should have put more thought into when we first started playing the game because I think it is unfair that new players have their hand held more than me.

Every time subscriptions reach an extra 1000 then every player should get an allocated skill point because we are getting more players on board this so called boring game.... Twisted

Actually Thats agreat Idea a option to reset our skills points they do that in LOL that is why they are so sucessfull maybe CCP should adapt that Businees Model.Sometimes the risky crazy Idea are the best "Fortune favors the Bold"


Fortune favours the smart, it wouldn't help you.


It would help me as I would not ahve caldari freighter IV but vOv...
Kiandoshia
Likely Suspects
RAZOR Alliance
#179 - 2015-01-26 21:22:59 UTC
Unezka Turigahl wrote:
Yes, remove attributes and attribute implants.

Also remove all other implants.
Also remove boosts.

Then engaging a ship comes down to the ships, their fittings, and the players' skills, none of this additional garbage.


Remove ship fitting as well. Just have prefitted, unchangable ships.
Solops Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#180 - 2015-01-26 23:04:44 UTC
Kiandoshia wrote:
Unezka Turigahl wrote:
Yes, remove attributes and attribute implants.

Also remove all other implants.
Also remove boosts.

Then engaging a ship comes down to the ships, their fittings, and the players' skills, none of this additional garbage.


Remove ship fitting as well. Just have prefitted, unchangable ships.

I agree!

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