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[Proteus - January] Recon ships

First post First post First post
Author
Cassius Invictus
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#2221 - 2015-01-09 13:55:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Cassius Invictus
Hey guys does shield tank on curse really make sense? You need 3 slots for a mwd, scram and cap booster and are left with 3 slot tank. You should put in one tracking disruptor too...

So whats the point? Make it 5/5 or 4/6 as a true amarr/khanid ship. If someone has such whish he can shield tank pilgrim as it is...


edit:

CCP Rise wrote:

  • Align Recons around ship developer trends established in other classes (Roden Lachesis should not use missiles for example)

  • Where appropriate, bonuses will be adjusted to match ship developer trends

  • So maybe +4% armor res bonus instead of tracking disruption? you can keep 6/4 then Big smile.
    Harvey James
    The Sengoku Legacy
    #2222 - 2015-01-09 14:38:25 UTC
    i see there already in the patch notes which means this thread is now dead ... what a shame so many useful ideas that should have been used have been ignored.

    T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

    ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

    Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

    Serendipity Lost
    Repo Industries
    #2223 - 2015-01-09 14:42:41 UTC
    I've always accepted that the shield curse is a support platform that can't do it all. Put the prop mod of your choice and your best shield tank. Leave the tackle, scramming and disruption to others. You can't have it all in one. You can make a really special cap stable full neut shield curse - which is powerful enough in my book.

    If you want to rock a cap stable, full nuet shield curse - bring friend(s).

    I mean heck, who wouldn't want to abuse a cap stable, nano, shield nueting curse w/ 5 sentries and ASB, med MJD and a faction point. This is obviously too much. I'm OK w/ where the shield curse is. If you push the fit and make it a shield platform, then you have to give a few things up.
    2D34DLY4U
    Brutor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #2224 - 2015-01-09 15:02:28 UTC
    Harvey James wrote:
    i see there already in the patch notes which means this thread is now dead ... what a shame so many useful ideas that should have been used have been ignored.


    Not everything was wasted.

    Plan of training alt into Recons is now on hold and this just saved me a month of dual training.

    In a sense I just won a couple of beers. GG
    Shilalasar
    Dead Sky Inc.
    #2225 - 2015-01-09 16:01:50 UTC
    Harvey James wrote:
    i see there already in the patch notes which means this thread is now dead ... what a shame so many useful ideas that should have been used have been ignored.


    DidnĀ“t you just hear CCP Rise in the in-development video? It is still in the feedback-stage now.
    So that is how it works:
    1. Announcementphase: Someone says something about something
    2. Discussionphase: Features and Ideas sticky is created and used by players and Devs
    3. Decicionphase: Dev(s) decide what they want and do it. Also known as "The last blue post".
    4. Feedbackstage: Players keep pointing out the flaws but are completely ignored
    This last stage lasts for an unknown time, there are still Hyperion feedbackstickies in the wormholesection...
    Faren Shalni
    Ministry of War
    Amarr Empire
    #2226 - 2015-01-09 16:23:05 UTC
    Shilalasar wrote:
    there are still Hyperion feedbackstickies in the wormholesection...


    Because If they took them down players will create new ones.

    So Much Space

    Lloyd Roses
    Artificial Memories
    #2227 - 2015-01-09 16:27:00 UTC
    Cassius Invictus wrote:
    Hey guys does shield tank on curse really make sense? You need 3 slots for a mwd, scram and cap booster and are left with 3 slot tank. You should put in one tracking disruptor too...

    So whats the point? Make it 5/5 or 4/6 as a true amarr/khanid ship. If someone has such whish he can shield tank pilgrim as it is...


    edit:

    CCP Rise wrote:

  • Align Recons around ship developer trends established in other classes (Roden Lachesis should not use missiles for example)

  • Where appropriate, bonuses will be adjusted to match ship developer trends

  • So maybe +4% armor res bonus instead of tracking disruption? you can keep 6/4 then Big smile.


    A resist bonus is roughly one free resist mod stats wise. Even then, wouldn't be enough to justify armortanking.

    Shieldtank Curse is the smartest choice, since you're naturally squishy but got moderate range to work with (35+, 40+ and 80+ depending on fit), and shields yield sufficient tank while allowing for DDAs and nanos to become better at what you're supposed to be good at: neuting people at range or screw over a turret ship.
    Lady Rift
    His Majesty's Privateers
    #2228 - 2015-01-09 18:14:27 UTC
    Cassius Invictus wrote:
    Hey guys does shield tank on curse really make sense? You need 3 slots for a mwd, scram and cap booster and are left with 3 slot tank. You should put in one tracking disruptor too...

    So whats the point? Make it 5/5 or 4/6 as a true amarr/khanid ship. If someone has such whish he can shield tank pilgrim as it is...


    edit:

    CCP Rise wrote:

  • Align Recons around ship developer trends established in other classes (Roden Lachesis should not use missiles for example)

  • Where appropriate, bonuses will be adjusted to match ship developer trends

  • So maybe +4% armor res bonus instead of tracking disruption? you can keep 6/4 then Big smile.



    why scram? you neut from 30+km your dmg is at 60 km. you either 4 slot tank it and use it as a neut boat or 3 slot tank and use it with a TD or you trust your logi to always feed you cap and you 4 slot tank and have a TD on it.

    Or you armor tank it with no damage mods and have full 6 slot mids to play with.
    Harvey James
    The Sengoku Legacy
    #2229 - 2015-01-09 18:42:13 UTC
    with a 3-2 neut/nos combo its actually capstable without a cap booster, but it is amarr so its still bizarre that he has left it as effectively a shield tanker especially with the lack of grid and 4 lows making armour tanking it pretty hard.

    T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

    ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

    Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

    PastyWhiteDevil
    Wilderness
    IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
    #2230 - 2015-01-09 23:57:31 UTC
    Gabriel Karade wrote:
    PastyWhiteDevil wrote:

    this is quite literally my favorite ship in game. please don't ruin it. lest we forget that roden favors MISSILES
    The Roden missiles brain-bug has been stupid since the day it appeared. It's only taken like 5 years to get it squashed - now (as per my ancient 'Gallente Mk II' thread) at least there is some sense restored to the Gallente line:

    Duvolle - Blasters
    Roden - Railguns
    Creodron - Drones



    an un-damage-bonused rail lachesis is going to be absolute crap. secondly, weapon types are not split like that. it's hybrids, missiles, and drones. for example you don't have amarr ships that are considered to be pulse or beam laser. you have amarr laser ships, drone ships, and missile ships. the roden missile "brain-bug" needs to be expanded upon. give them the option to fit more missiles. I would love to see a missile ares -- it might actually be worth flying if you could missile fit it.
    PastyWhiteDevil
    Wilderness
    IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
    #2231 - 2015-01-10 00:14:44 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:
    Okay, first major update just edited into the OP.

    Major changes:

  • We're going to go with a lighter resist profile than originally described, setting all eight recons at the former combat recon resist profile. While we still like the goal of making them more fleet viable, their tank was one of their only stand-out weaknesses and we felt that removing it could make them oppressive at smaller scales. To compensate somewhat we've trimmed 5 more sig radius of each ship.
  • With the Pilgrim we decided to split the difference between neut range and strength by wrapping both into one bonus. The amounts will be smaller than either of the singular bonuses but this should do a nice job of giving more engagement range flexibility while still allowing for plenty of cap pressure.
  • We are going to move one high slot on the Lachesis to a low slot, making armor slightly more viable while still preserving room in the mids for damps as well as long range warp disruption. The damage potential for the Lach is still on par with other combat recons even without the fifth high so we feel this fits better than giving up a mid.
  • The Rook is getting a little more PG fitting room and trading the 5% HAM/HML rate of fire bonus for a 7.5% kinetic missile damage bonus. This is typical Kaalakiota bonus, gives the same number of effective launchers, and favors RLML over the rate of fire bonus.
  • Finally, I will say again that the directional scan immunity is staying, though we are very aware of concerns (especially concerning FW site abuse) and will watch closely to see how this new capability is used and make any necessary adjustments.

  • Have a great Christmas o/


    why have you chosen to nerf the lachesis' capacity to solo pvp? all the others look to have received an increase. because before it was possibly one of the best (up there with the curse). now it is probably the worst. the only way to really compensate is to either radically rework the shield scram fit or forget hybrids all together and fit either 425 autos, 200 autos, or smart bombs and then load up on as many drone damage amps as you can afford.
    Ransu Asanari
    Perkone
    Caldari State
    #2232 - 2015-01-10 00:36:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Ransu Asanari
    CCP Rise wrote:
    The Rook is getting a little more PG fitting room and trading the 5% HAM/HML rate of fire bonus for a 7.5% kinetic missile damage bonus. This is typical Kaalakiota bonus, gives the same number of effective launchers, and favors RLML over the rate of fire bonus.


    Actually this isn't correct. The Crow is a Kaalakiota ship, and the damage bonus was just changed from a Kinetic bonus to:


    • 5% bonus to Light Missile and Rocket explosion radius
    • 10% bonus to Light Missile and Rocket max velocity


    Please stop locking Caldari ships in to Kinetic damage types. The point of missiles is versatility, and this takes away from the situations where it would be useful to change ammo types to take advantage of that.

    P.S. Speaking of ammo reloads, how's that ammo swap mechanic for Rapid Missiles coming along? Are we still iterating on that after Rubicon 1.1?
    ASKEN KURLEE
    Republic Military School
    Minmatar Republic
    #2233 - 2015-01-10 01:08:39 UTC
    I wanted to fly a Curse for so long so I trained and trained. I was happy. They were just so sexy....... then somebody changed em to look like every other ordinary ship. Why in the world would you do that? Really...why would you take something beautiful and make it plain? I just dont get it. I know this is probly a waste of time but I gotta say.....Can we bring back the real Curse plz.
    Catherine Laartii
    Doomheim
    #2234 - 2015-01-10 02:55:44 UTC
    PastyWhiteDevil wrote:
    Gabriel Karade wrote:
    PastyWhiteDevil wrote:

    this is quite literally my favorite ship in game. please don't ruin it. lest we forget that roden favors MISSILES
    The Roden missiles brain-bug has been stupid since the day it appeared. It's only taken like 5 years to get it squashed - now (as per my ancient 'Gallente Mk II' thread) at least there is some sense restored to the Gallente line:

    Duvolle - Blasters
    Roden - Railguns
    Creodron - Drones



    an un-damage-bonused rail lachesis is going to be absolute crap. secondly, weapon types are not split like that. it's hybrids, missiles, and drones. for example you don't have amarr ships that are considered to be pulse or beam laser. you have amarr laser ships, drone ships, and missile ships. the roden missile "brain-bug" needs to be expanded upon. give them the option to fit more missiles. I would love to see a missile ares -- it might actually be worth flying if you could missile fit it.

    I'm sorry but you're wrong with making the comparison between lasers and hybrids. Caldari get ishukone which is exclusively bonused around rails, with the double range bonus. The problem with it is that they're trying to shoehorn bonuses into a ship where it doesn't work in the least bit with only 2 combat skills...primary skills for Roden should be range and damage, not range and tracking. Rails are applicable mainly when they have decent alpha which the lach won't be doing.

    What will likely happen is you'll have the Lach have a web and be blaster fit, so anything that comes into close range gets smoked by its fast-tracking blasters. Sure rails are great for fleet when you can hit everything with it, but you'll be doing sh*t for dps with them.

    That said, I would like to see the falcon turned into a Lai Dai boat and given missiles. It has the worst offensive power out of all of these recons by an absolutely pathetically large margin.
    PastyWhiteDevil
    Wilderness
    IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
    #2235 - 2015-01-10 03:17:29 UTC
    Catherine Laartii wrote:
    PastyWhiteDevil wrote:
    Gabriel Karade wrote:
    PastyWhiteDevil wrote:

    this is quite literally my favorite ship in game. please don't ruin it. lest we forget that roden favors MISSILES
    The Roden missiles brain-bug has been stupid since the day it appeared. It's only taken like 5 years to get it squashed - now (as per my ancient 'Gallente Mk II' thread) at least there is some sense restored to the Gallente line:

    Duvolle - Blasters
    Roden - Railguns
    Creodron - Drones



    an un-damage-bonused rail lachesis is going to be absolute crap. secondly, weapon types are not split like that. it's hybrids, missiles, and drones. for example you don't have amarr ships that are considered to be pulse or beam laser. you have amarr laser ships, drone ships, and missile ships. the roden missile "brain-bug" needs to be expanded upon. give them the option to fit more missiles. I would love to see a missile ares -- it might actually be worth flying if you could missile fit it.

    I'm sorry but you're wrong with making the comparison between lasers and hybrids. Caldari get ishukone which is exclusively bonused around rails, with the double range bonus. The problem with it is that they're trying to shoehorn bonuses into a ship where it doesn't work in the least bit with only 2 combat skills...primary skills for Roden should be range and damage, not range and tracking. Rails are applicable mainly when they have decent alpha which the lach won't be doing.

    What will likely happen is you'll have the Lach have a web and be blaster fit, so anything that comes into close range gets smoked by its fast-tracking blasters. Sure rails are great for fleet when you can hit everything with it, but you'll be doing sh*t for dps with them.

    That said, I would like to see the falcon turned into a Lai Dai boat and given missiles. It has the worst offensive power out of all of these recons by an absolutely pathetically large margin.


    but since when are the enyo, eris, and phobos considered rail ships? and why would i want to fit blasters and a web when it is better as it currently is? single scram heavy missiles and 425 autos and basically 70k ehp before bonuses. that would mean a lot of tank being dropped. aren't we supposed to be buffing them so they get used more? the current lach beats the hell out of the one being put forward. those hybrid turrets will be useless rails won't do **** for dmg and blasters will put me in neut range were i don't want to be. all the other combat recons r not to bad off if things get close. this absolutely gimps the lachesis' solo capabilities.
    SyntaxPD
    PowerDucks
    PowerDucks Alliance
    #2236 - 2015-01-10 10:23:07 UTC
    I think i have an idea. Maybe already said by someone:

    0. No invisible dscan ships
    1. Remove D-Scan.
    2. Make a module for recons, that add D-Scan functionality.

    This way you will not restrict or affect existing tool, but you'll make a whole new role to play
    Aiyshimin
    Shiva Furnace
    #2237 - 2015-01-10 10:27:14 UTC
    SyntaxPD wrote:
    I think i have an idea. Maybe already said by someone:

    0. No invisible dscan ships
    1. Remove D-Scan.
    2. Make a module for recons, that add D-Scan functionality.

    This way you will not restrict or affect existing tool, but you'll make a whole new role to play


    lol

    Lugh Crow-Slave
    #2238 - 2015-01-10 12:00:05 UTC
    Cassius Invictus wrote:


    So maybe +4% armor res bonus instead of tracking disruption? you can keep 6/4 then Big smile.


    remove the E-War bonus from an E-war ship and you're doing it wrong
    Gabriel Karade
    Coreli Corporation
    Pandemic Legion
    #2239 - 2015-01-10 12:20:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Gabriel Karade
    PastyWhiteDevil wrote:
    Gabriel Karade wrote:
    PastyWhiteDevil wrote:

    this is quite literally my favorite ship in game. please don't ruin it. lest we forget that roden favors MISSILES
    The Roden missiles brain-bug has been stupid since the day it appeared. It's only taken like 5 years to get it squashed - now (as per my ancient 'Gallente Mk II' thread) at least there is some sense restored to the Gallente line:

    Duvolle - Blasters
    Roden - Railguns
    Creodron - Drones



    an un-damage-bonused rail lachesis is going to be absolute crap. secondly, weapon types are not split like that. it's hybrids, missiles, and drones. for example you don't have amarr ships that are considered to be pulse or beam laser. you have amarr laser ships, drone ships, and missile ships. the roden missile "brain-bug" needs to be expanded upon. give them the option to fit more missiles. I would love to see a missile ares -- it might actually be worth flying if you could missile fit it.
    Then re train to fly Caldari...

    Edit: weapons were originally split like that in the earliest days of Eve, all that happened was the 'flavours' were ported to T2 ships, hence the likes of Creodron pushing the drone boundary, or Ishukone pushing railguns.

    If you want to dig further into the fluff, 'old school' Gallente doctrine revolved around long range bombardment (the drones came later), with more up to date Gallente doctrine involving blasters. So, no - Roden being a railgun 'flavour' makes perfect sense, glad to see CCP are putting things right....

    War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293

    Yahrr
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #2240 - 2015-01-10 13:04:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Yahrr
    Catherine Laartii wrote:
    The problem with it is that they're trying to shoehorn bonuses into a ship where it doesn't work in the least bit with only 2 combat skills...primary skills for Roden should be range and damage, not range and tracking. Rails are applicable mainly when they have decent alpha which the lach won't be doing.

    What I don't get about CCP's balancing is that they stick to a set number of bonuses per ship. By limiting them to say, two, you invite crappy combinations like range and tracking. I don't care how many bonuses a ship has, as long as the result is balanced.