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[Proteus - January] Recon ships

First post First post First post
Author
East Windstar
Eclipse.
#2061 - 2014-12-30 03:51:11 UTC  |  Edited by: East Windstar
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:


Nope.

Check local.
See 10.
D-scan - see 5.
Assume 5 are Recons.
Avoid fight.


You won't see 5 on D-scan, they will not be on D-scan at all.

Looks like you have never used the D-scan.
Jaysen Larrisen
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2062 - 2014-12-30 04:31:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaysen Larrisen
East Windstar wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:


Nope.

Check local.
See 10.
D-scan - see 5.
Assume 5 are Recons.
Avoid fight.


You won't see 5 on D-scan, they will not be on D-scan at all.

Looks like you have never used the D-scan.


I think Jenshae was saying that if you see 10 people in local and only 5 ships on scan just assume the delta equals recon ships to be safe.

"Endless money forms the sinews of War" - Cicero

Biomassed - Dust & EVE Podcast

Twitter - @JaysynLarrissen

Mario Putzo
#2063 - 2014-12-30 05:32:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
DSCAN Change is stupid.

Here is a fix. Why have two ships filling the same roles?

Just give
Combat Recons a cov ops cloak, and drop their EWAR capabilities. Increase their tanks and dps output.
Force Recons lose their weapon fittings, and are refocused primarily for EWAR, and Scan Probe use.

I think trying to shoe horn in an entire new mechanic when you have 2 ships doing essentially the same thing is redundant and gimmicky. Just split the roles and be done with it.
KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#2064 - 2014-12-30 06:44:19 UTC
East Windstar wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:


Nope.

Check local.
See 10.
D-scan - see 5.
Assume 5 are Recons.
Avoid fight.


You won't see 5 on D-scan, they will not be on D-scan at all.

Looks like you have never used the D-scan.


Math is hard. CCP loves you.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2065 - 2014-12-30 08:28:03 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:

Take the example given somewhere in this thread of a low sec camp with 2 Vexors and 2 Rooks. Before these changes, the gang considering fighting them never would because they know they can't deal with the Rooks. After, they won't see them and so they will probably engage. That's more fights because people are risk averse.


Nope.

Check local.
See 10.
D-scan - see 5.
Assume 5 are Recons.
Avoid fight.


Please tell me (and I'm being serious) how this is any different from the force recons today?

Decloaking delay is irrelevant as you'll be hard tackled by the other 5. Lack of 'power' not wholly relevant because there are 5.

If you only ever take fights when you can account for every pilot in local you must take many....
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2066 - 2014-12-30 09:04:26 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:

Take the example given somewhere in this thread of a low sec camp with 2 Vexors and 2 Rooks. Before these changes, the gang considering fighting them never would because they know they can't deal with the Rooks. After, they won't see them and so they will probably engage. That's more fights because people are risk averse.


Nope.

Check local.
See 10.
D-scan - see 5.
Assume 5 are Recons.
Avoid fight.


Unless the system is smaller than 14AU and you're in the dead center, this is the norm even now. I just have to assume that something is camping one of the gates not in DScan range.

Or are you living in a system which has everything in range of Dscan and never leave it?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2067 - 2014-12-30 09:50:27 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Its interesting to see so many getting worked up over the Dscan trick when its effectively the same as any ship with a cov ops cloak, the only difference is the rook can be probed down.
Benito Arias
Angry Mustellid
Lost Obsession
#2068 - 2014-12-30 12:16:09 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Its interesting to see so many getting worked up over the Dscan trick when its effectively the same as any ship with a cov ops cloak, the only difference is the rook can be probed down.

This probably because one of the the goals of this balance pass, as stated in the OP, is to "Give Combat Recons something to make them stand out as a unique and interesting set of ships", another is to "Close the gap somewhat between Recons and T3 Cruisers, though this will also be a goal during the T3 Cruiser rebalance".
None of the abovementioned goals are met by making Combat Recons blend with Force Recons (if indeed the D-scan thingy is effectively almost the same as Covops cloak), neither by keeping their tanking ability inferior when their well-established role, so far, has been that of an E-war platform actively engaging the enemy with the rest of the fleet (and then there are T3 cruisers with 5 times the EHP).
MachineOfLovingGrace
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#2069 - 2014-12-30 12:22:31 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Its interesting to see so many getting worked up over the Dscan trick when its effectively the same as any ship with a cov ops cloak, the only difference is the rook can be probed down.


People already don't like being ganked by surprises. There will be (potentially) more ganks by surprise.

Result: People are not happy about more surprises. That seems very reasonable to me.
CALAMYTY DIVA
Urxa Slaves Union
#2070 - 2014-12-30 12:40:17 UTC
Ross Sylibus wrote:
I don't see how this doesn't make WH space completely unlivable for most of EVE.


Yup,especialy new players....When they first time found the courage to go to WH and do all tips and tricks friends tell them,checking dscan,nothing there and...pock*!theyr killed. Great :-D
CALAMYTY DIVA
Urxa Slaves Union
#2071 - 2014-12-30 12:47:58 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:

Check local.
See 10.
D-scan - see 5.
Assume 5 are Recons.
Avoid fight.


What about WH?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2072 - 2014-12-30 12:59:14 UTC
CALAMYTY DIVA wrote:
Ross Sylibus wrote:
I don't see how this doesn't make WH space completely unlivable for most of EVE.


Yup,especialy new players....When they first time found the courage to go to WH and do all tips and tricks friends tell them,checking dscan,nothing there and...pock*!theyr killed. Great :-D


So, how do you handle cov ops fitted ships?
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#2073 - 2014-12-30 13:27:19 UTC
Niskin wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
So based on the wh mass / range push back AND the push back on the D-scan immunity....

CCP - the PVP community at large doesn't want ganking tools. We want PVP tools. These gimmicks we're pushing back on are gank tools.

We're not looking to log in and gank folks (sure we all do it pretty much every time it comes up, but it's NOT the thing we log in to do), we're looking to log in and PVP. Please just knock it off w/ the gank stuff. We're not 100,000 14 year olds that continually get a kick out of ganking. You are sequentially ruining a great PVP game with cheesey gank mechanics.


stuff you said
.



I gank folks all the time. We all do. We take what we can get. I'm not against it. I'm saying CCP should be adding PVP tools/mechanics. They shouldn't be adding more ganking mechanics. We'll figure out the gank angle all on our own.

Mass/Range - So we could more easily gank folks rolling wh. It was a ploy by risk averse folks not willing to go all in and engage folks on the rolled in side of a wh that was getting rolled. 100s of pages of 'don't do this' they did it and wh pvp is suffering for several reasons. It's easier to gank rollers, but it's much more difficult (suicidal in many cases) to put a capital ship through a wh for the express purpose of pvp. It's been months and they won't publish any stats on what the change did to wh pvp, so I'm fairly confident many of us were correct in our predictions of the outcome of said change.

D-scan immunity - What is it supposed to do?? I'm not asking for player opinions or conjecture. I'm looking for CCP to flat out state what they thought we would do with this. Recons needed something a little special sure, but taking away Dscan?? Stop smoking the bad stuff. Making it easier to gank folks doesn't shake the game up. It just adds another avenue for cheap one sided fights. (and yeah, we've already stocked are wh hangars w/ various ships/fits to punish folks with this new borked mechanic - shield curse/armor curse/cap stable curse.... 2 flavors of lachesis - we're set!)

A lot of folks keep saying it's no different than (fill in cov ops boat). It is different. Many times I have uncloaked in my proteus w/ 54km point and watched an alert player warp off as I count down my uncloaking delay timer. The alert player had an out. The ONLY ship this doesn't apply to is the bomber. It's pretty fragile, so a guy has a reasonable chance of popping it and getting away.

A D-scan immune recon can land w/ sensor booster running and pretty much instalock and thanks to the new hac tanks, they will be able to withstand reasonable dps until their backup arrives. It's totally different.

Then there is the 'but you can just use combat probes to detect them' - this is another kick in the nutz to solo/small groups of guys. Expanded probe launchers take a ton of CPU and would/will reduce fits including them to garbage. Of course if you're in a large alliance - someone can cloak a cov ops in system w/ combats out and go that way.

I like change. Change favors the agile and adaptable (and I'm pretty sure that has favored me and mine over the years). I don't like bad changes. There is a difference.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#2074 - 2014-12-30 13:43:46 UTC
CALAMYTY DIVA wrote:
Ross Sylibus wrote:
I don't see how this doesn't make WH space completely unlivable for most of EVE.


Yup,especialy new players....When they first time found the courage to go to WH and do all tips and tricks friends tell them,checking dscan,nothing there and...pock*!theyr killed. Great :-D



Most folks accept wh space as a big game of Marco Polo w/ space guns already. There are already 1000 dirty tricks in the wh bag - this isn't going to be a huge game changer for wh space. No local is clearly more deadly than D-scan immunity.

I predict it will add a few more ganks to guys that were going to get ganked by other means anyways - this will just be more efficient time wise for the gankers. You don't need all the time consuming sneaky setups. Find them, lachesis in on them, insta-lock, bring bubble, process ship and pod, rinse and repeat.

It will be very safe to gas in recon ships in wh space, though I don't see a lot of folks lining up to fit gas harvesters on their rooks. Other PVE activities will also be super safe.... as long as you don't create any wrecks.

Just some quick brainstorming for gank immune wh activities: Recon gassing (ick) and pirate faction relic/data sites in the low ends using a recon (no wrecks involved). There is a lot of opportunity for low end day trippping in a hacking combat recon. Scan the crap down w/ your covert ops ship and then come back in your hacking curse and double dog dare someone to scan you down and gank you.
Niskin
League of the Lost
#2075 - 2014-12-30 14:53:07 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
I gank folks all the time. We all do. We take what we can get. I'm not against it. I'm saying CCP should be adding PVP tools/mechanics. They shouldn't be adding more ganking mechanics. We'll figure out the gank angle all on our own.


They are making a change that will shake things up, that is good for the game. There is much more to this change than just ganking, that's just the benefit that's easiest to see. We've gotten into this before. You seem to think CCP should only make certain kinds of changes, but they need to be able to make a change wherever they see an opportunity. When they added Warp To Zero that was a change that negatively impacted ganking, this is a change that positively impacts it. Finding balance requires the freedom to make changes wherever they are needed.

Serendipity Lost wrote:
Mass/Range - So we could more easily gank folks rolling wh. It was a ploy by risk averse folks not willing to go all in and engage folks on the rolled in side of a wh that was getting rolled. 100s of pages of 'don't do this' they did it and wh pvp is suffering for several reasons. It's easier to gank rollers, but it's much more difficult (suicidal in many cases) to put a capital ship through a wh for the express purpose of pvp. It's been months and they won't publish any stats on what the change did to wh pvp, so I'm fairly confident many of us were correct in our predictions of the outcome of said change.


That thread went about a hundred pages and has hardly moved since the change went in. My understanding is that the effect hasn't been nearly as bad as people thought. For purely rolling holes it seems people have adapted. The affect on pvp caps jumping in is a legitimate beef though.

Serendipity Lost wrote:
D-scan immunity - What is it supposed to do?? I'm not asking for player opinions or conjecture. I'm looking for CCP to flat out state what they thought we would do with this. Recons needed something a little special sure, but taking away Dscan?? Stop smoking the bad stuff. Making it easier to gank folks doesn't shake the game up. It just adds another avenue for cheap one sided fights. (and yeah, we've already stocked are wh hangars w/ various ships/fits to punish folks with this new borked mechanic - shield curse/armor curse/cap stable curse.... 2 flavors of lachesis - we're set!)


Per the part that I bolded: Yes, it does. That's exactly what it does. Shaking things up means breaking the cycle of complacency.

Feel the irony here for a second. You live in a C5 wormhole with a group and now have additional options for engaging when you find a target. I live in a C2 wormhole, with a C5 static, solo and now have to be more careful when running sites. You are literally more likely to be the one using these rejuvenated recons to kill me than anybody else I've argued with in this thread. Yet, I'm the one arguing for the changes and you are arguing against them.

Serendipity Lost wrote:
A lot of folks keep saying it's no different than (fill in cov ops boat). It is different. Many times I have uncloaked in my proteus w/ 54km point and watched an alert player warp off as I count down my uncloaking delay timer. The alert player had an out. The ONLY ship this doesn't apply to is the bomber. It's pretty fragile, so a guy has a reasonable chance of popping it and getting away.

A D-scan immune recon can land w/ sensor booster running and pretty much instalock and thanks to the new hac tanks, they will be able to withstand reasonable dps until their backup arrives. It's totally different.


My understanding is that you should be bumping them as you decloak. That's what I'm expecting from whatever suddenly appears on my overview. If a T3 decloaks on me I will try to escape, but generally expect to die, unless he didn't pack a scram.

But more generally, without a cloaky warp-in the Recon is going to land in a place on the grid that can be predicted. Only the Lachesis has the tools to overcome this disadvantage. If there is a cloaky warp-in then an Interceptor could catch you just as easily as any Recon warping in could. It would be on grid very quickly after you saw it on scan, possibly ready to lock faster than the Combat Recon due to warp deceleration.

Serendipity Lost wrote:
Then there is the 'but you can just use combat probes to detect them' - this is another kick in the nutz to solo/small groups of guys. Expanded probe launchers take a ton of CPU and would/will reduce fits including them to garbage. Of course if you're in a large alliance - someone can cloak a cov ops in system w/ combats out and go that way.

I like change. Change favors the agile and adaptable (and I'm pretty sure that has favored me and mine over the years). I don't like bad changes. There is a difference.


The combat probe option hurts solo players the most, though I've found in this game that most solo players are multiboxers. So the field of people affected is even smaller. I've already pointed out in this thread how true solo players can mitigate this with an alt on the same account. People are acting like they don't use scouts, I don't know... maybe they don't anymore. If this change gets people back to using them then that's just another good reason for it.

It's Dark In Here - The Lonely Wormhole Blog

Remember kiddies: the best ship in Eve is Friendship.

-MooMooDachshundCow

Altirius Saldiaro
Doomheim
#2076 - 2014-12-30 14:54:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Altirius Saldiaro
KIller Wabbit wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Okay, first major update just edited into the OP.


  • Finally, I will say again that the directional scan immunity is staying, though we are very aware of concerns (especially concerning FW site abuse) and will watch closely to see how this new capability is used and make any necessary adjustments.

  • Have a great Christmas o/


    A game breaking ******* bullshit mechanic. You should be ashamed.


    How exactly will this break the game? It hasn't even released yet. You cry too much. Oh wait, I forgot all you little kids are home for the holidays. No wonder there's so much whining.
    Niskin
    League of the Lost
    #2077 - 2014-12-30 15:00:16 UTC
    Serendipity Lost wrote:
    Just some quick brainstorming for gank immune wh activities: Recon gassing (ick) and pirate faction relic/data sites in the low ends using a recon (no wrecks involved). There is a lot of opportunity for low end day trippping in a hacking combat recon. Scan the crap down w/ your covert ops ship and then come back in your hacking curse and double dog dare someone to scan you down and gank you.


    You are grasping here. Venture's cost ~250k ISK and huff gas faster than anything with 5 Turret slots (max Gas Harvesters per ship based on skill level 5). They also have 2 points of warp core stability. Why would I huff gas in a Recon which is in the 100-200m ISK range? Not to mention the 5000m3 Ore Bay and that the Recon would have to drop a can to huff gas, and need a hauler.

    Hacking is the same deal, Frigates are cheap and the one you will use for hacking will have bonuses for that activity. There is no good reason to use an expensive Recon over a Frigate that costs less than 1M ISK.

    It's Dark In Here - The Lonely Wormhole Blog

    Remember kiddies: the best ship in Eve is Friendship.

    -MooMooDachshundCow

    Serendipity Lost
    Repo Industries
    #2078 - 2014-12-30 15:42:54 UTC
    Niskin wrote:
    Serendipity Lost wrote:
    Just some quick brainstorming for gank immune wh activities: Recon gassing (ick) and pirate faction relic/data sites in the low ends using a recon (no wrecks involved). There is a lot of opportunity for low end day trippping in a hacking combat recon. Scan the crap down w/ your covert ops ship and then come back in your hacking curse and double dog dare someone to scan you down and gank you.


    You are grasping here. Venture's cost ~250k ISK and huff gas faster than anything with 5 Turret slots (max Gas Harvesters per ship based on skill level 5). They also have 2 points of warp core stability. Why would I huff gas in a Recon which is in the 100-200m ISK range? Not to mention the 5000m3 Ore Bay and that the Recon would have to drop a can to huff gas, and need a hauler.

    Hacking is the same deal, Frigates are cheap and the one you will use for hacking will have bonuses for that activity. There is no good reason to use an expensive Recon over a Frigate that costs less than 1M ISK.




    You're just a hater.

    See the (ick) after the recon gasser? Ick is a technical word for not desirable. (and ditch the venture - the 10k hold of the prospect is to die for - don't bother w/ a cloak)

    The pirate data/relic sites are super easy to hack. Anyone that can use the t2 variants of the mini game modules can do them easily in any ship. As far as there is no reason to use and expensive recon over a frigate that costs 1 M isk... it's immune to D-scan is one reason. It can wonk up on any unsuspecting t1 frigate that warps into the site (that's right, MY hacking combat recon is going to pwnt YOUR t1 frig as soon as it lands), so that's 2 reasons.

    And I did preface it w/ (and I quote) 'Just some quick brainstorming.....'

    I will be sitting in relic/data sites in a combat recon. Please bring on your T1 frigatry.

    Ganthrithor
    GoonWaffe
    Goonswarm Federation
    #2079 - 2014-12-30 16:23:08 UTC
    baltec1 wrote:
    Its interesting to see so many getting worked up over the Dscan trick when its effectively the same as any ship with a cov ops cloak, the only difference is the rook can be probed down.


    The difference is that the Falcon is pre-gimped as a combat ship, while the Rook is gonna dump out a ton of DPS with RLMLs in addition to jamming and being incredibly sneaky. And don't forget that you can always fit a regular cloak on the Rook if you need to go AFK.
    Niskin
    League of the Lost
    #2080 - 2014-12-30 16:29:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Niskin
    Serendipity Lost wrote:
    You're just a hater.

    See the (ick) after the recon gasser? Ick is a technical word for not desirable. (and ditch the venture - the 10k hold of the prospect is to die for - don't bother w/ a cloak)

    The pirate data/relic sites are super easy to hack. Anyone that can use the t2 variants of the mini game modules can do them easily in any ship. As far as there is no reason to use and expensive recon over a frigate that costs 1 M isk... it's immune to D-scan is one reason. It can wonk up on any unsuspecting t1 frigate that warps into the site (that's right, MY hacking combat recon is going to pwnt YOUR t1 frig as soon as it lands), so that's 2 reasons.

    And I did preface it w/ (and I quote) 'Just some quick brainstorming.....'

    I will be sitting in relic/data sites in a combat recon. Please bring on your T1 frigatry.



    LOL, I'm a hater. That's a new one. It's not my fault your ideas are terrible.

    So I should use a 25m ISK Prospect over a 250k ISK Venture because it has twice the Ore Hold? Most gas sites I run have 4500m3 in them, some have 7500m3. I think I can handle making two trips on those rare occasions...

    Saying the pirate sites are easy to hack doesn't make your case any better, it just means you don't have to waste time finding a frigate with the right bonus if you are that good at them. I personally prefer the bonused hull, I've yet to go 6/6 on a site and I don't need any help failing them.

    Now if you're sitting in a pirate site in a Recon hoping to get a kill, that makes sense. I'm not really worried about losing a Frigate but I'll probably still Combat Probe the sites I plan to warp to, as a new important habit. But if you want to sit in a site and wait for a gank, the only advantage the Combat Recon gives you over the Force Recon is being able to actually hack the cans. I'm not sure that's an important enough difference considering you're still busted when the Combat Probes get in range.

    It's Dark In Here - The Lonely Wormhole Blog

    Remember kiddies: the best ship in Eve is Friendship.

    -MooMooDachshundCow