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[Proteus - January] Recon ships

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h3llra1z3r3 Arkaral
Hardcore Pwnography Inc.
#1881 - 2014-12-25 01:47:16 UTC
Quote:
No you are not. You have explicitly said that you are against d-scan immunity because it impacts positively on something you don't like.

That's about as far from impartial as it's possible to be.


yes I am. I am against Dscan immunity but I have looked at it objectively and it does weigh strongly in favor of one group which doesn't need such a strong buff causing imbalance. Being impartial also means against imbalance. The Dscan thing doesn't weigh strongly enough in favor of any other activity in EVE for it to be justifiably considered as good for the everybody.

Also, I never said I don't like gankers, I actually said it doesn't require much intelligence to do but it is a part of eve, a necessary part of eve too.
I would also be against miners not being on Dscan fro example , as that would stack the odds in the other groups favor.


Quote:
Every little bit helps, since they're damned determined to not give them workable hitpoint levels. You seem to be under the assumption that the hitpoint boost would have happened without the d-scan immunity, and you're mistaken.


Every little bit does help. The key word there would be little. Can you point me in the direction to where I made this assumption?

Quote:
Quit bolding for emphasis on entire paragraphs, it's obnoxious.

And telling me what to do isn't? You are just arguing for the sake of it. try to stay on topic fella.

Quote:
And no, I'll take the d-scan immunity with a viable dps platform, thanks.


Of course you will. Ill send you a bib for xmas.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1882 - 2014-12-25 01:54:36 UTC
h3llra1z3r3 Arkaral wrote:
Being impartial also means against imbalance.


And d-scan is unbalanced. It's getting a counter now.



Quote:

Also, I never said I don't like gankers


Let's not be obtuse.


Quote:

Every little bit does help. The key word there would be little. Can you point me in the direction to where I made this assumption?


The part where you called it the wrong buff for recons. You seem to think that if this goes away that they will get the hitpoint buff. And that is not the case.

And since it's not the case, I am going to try and live with what we get.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Orange Faeces
Farbissina Industrial and Procurement
#1883 - 2014-12-25 01:57:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Orange Faeces
h3llra1z3r3 Arkaral wrote:
...

The funny thing is I think we all agree that recons need to be updated, I just see gankers so blinded with joy at the change that they can't see or refuse to look at the picture as a whole.
Yes Dscan immunity could be cool, but it's not the buff recons need, its just a rushed change under the guise of recon balancing.

...


If people who enjoy the odd gank seem happy about a change like this, it may be because they've watched their hunting opportunities being slowly deteriorated since 2006. Since the faster update schedule has been in effect, these changes have been coming so quickly that we don't have time to reason about it with CCP. The last CSM minutes, for example, contained a nauseating exchange between the CSM and Fozzie that signified the end for several long-standing lifestyles in the game, while giving nothing back to the affected players. Perhaps the d-scan/recon change is their way of address that? Its hard to say.

The ironic thing about this d-scan/combat recon change is that there are several good counters to this change in most contexts that will probably net your kind more kills than it will net for griefers, you just need to think about it a bit more and adapt.


O. Faeces
Altirius Saldiaro
Doomheim
#1884 - 2014-12-25 02:24:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Altirius Saldiaro
h3llra1z3r3 Arkaral wrote:
Altirius Saldiaro wrote:
[

To say it breaks the tools used in wspace is ridiculous. Combat probes and scouts are used in wspace. Thats 2 tools that arent affected. When I say scouts, I mean a cloaked ship watching the hole.



No it isn't, not everybody has multiple accounts and multiple alts and nor should they be forced into it.


Apparently you misunderstood me. I never said anything about multiple accounts and alts. I am talking about friends. I understand that most of you are anti-social nerds, probably living with your mother's, but this is an MMO. There are thousands of other players in this game. Go find some friends, form up a fleet, and work together.

Dont be scared to make new friends and fly with them.
Feodor Romanov
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1885 - 2014-12-25 02:34:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Feodor Romanov
I like DC immunity and I am sure that it will change nothng in FW plexes. Most of things that pilots will do in Combat Recons anyone can do nowdays in Force Recons. And Force ones can cross the jump gates easily.
The main thing I expected from Combat Recons is HAC resists and EHP boosts for fleet fights. There will be no HAC resists, I think that is mistake. Tha main problem of Combat Recons in small escalations is DPS and optimal range. I am afraid Lachesis will become The Shield Solo PVP kiting monster with 70 km optimal range, 300 DPS, 2-3 Damps and 2000+ m/s speed (without links and imps). If that power will not be enough, Lach can make the duo with Arty Huginn: 70km optimal, 300 DPS, 2 webs, 2000 m/s speed.
That is very bad! I want to see this pair united in trio with The Holy shield kiting 70km optimal range Curse! Nerf the Hull, boost the shields, change 1 high to med slots and bonus to neuts range from 40% to 60% as Huginn has on webs. Only mad fit missiles on Curse, so Curse do not need them anyway. Also will be awesome, if heated neuts will buff the range but not the amount.

Merry Christmas! Holy Curse!
h3llra1z3r3 Arkaral
Hardcore Pwnography Inc.
#1886 - 2014-12-25 02:48:16 UTC
Quote:
The part where you called it the wrong buff for recons. You seem to think that if this goes away that they will get the hitpoint buff. And that is not the case.


You make an assumption that I made an assumption and call me obtuse?

Quote:
Apparently you misunderstood me. I never said anything about multiple accounts and alts. I am talking about friends. I understand that most of you are anti-social nerds, probably living with your mother's, but this is an MMO. There are thousands of other players in this game. Go find some friends, form up a fleet, and work together.

Dont be scared to make new friends and fly with them.


I understood you, for a worm hole corp that's true.
Although if I want to run c3 sites solo ( not in a wh corp ) I now have to ask a corp mate to come along and scan probe and a few others to sit on the holes?
Are they doing this for free or are we splitting the profits?

What if I am in a wormhole corp and my play time sits a few hours outside of the main group of players?
I think in that case I should actually just ask in local if there is anybody about and see if they will help me scout , that's how you make friends?


Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1887 - 2014-12-25 03:00:50 UTC
I would ask you why you're in a wormhole as a casual, solo player without anyone to help you.

It's one of EVE's most effort intensive activities.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Yahrr
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1888 - 2014-12-25 03:03:30 UTC
Altirius Saldiaro wrote:
...this is an MMO. There are thousands of other players in this game. Go find some friends, form up a fleet, and work together.

Are you volunteering for watching one of the entrances to your wormhole location so the rest of the fleet can do it's thing, or do you recruit noobs for that? I'm asking this as this 'defending' will be much like mining, boring as hell and not worth €15 per month. It will be different in that you can't do it while watching youtube. So in the end it is about alts.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#1889 - 2014-12-25 03:15:53 UTC
Ganthrithor wrote:
...
Individual hulls need to be designed and balanced on an individual basis so they can shine. That said, I also think ECM needs a complete re-work anyway, so there's also that...


That seems to be on the horizon. Have patience, the day is nigh.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Wynta
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1890 - 2014-12-25 03:47:25 UTC
Also wanted to throw in that 5 Sig Radius reduction on a shield tank comes out to nothing.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#1891 - 2014-12-25 04:00:29 UTC  |  Edited by: FT Diomedes
Yahrr wrote:
Altirius Saldiaro wrote:
...this is an MMO. There are thousands of other players in this game. Go find some friends, form up a fleet, and work together.

Are you volunteering for watching one of the entrances to your wormhole location so the rest of the fleet can do it's thing, or do you recruit noobs for that? I'm asking this as this 'defending' will be much like mining, boring as hell and not worth €15 per month. It will be different in that you can't do it while watching youtube. So in the end it is about alts.


There is a lovely program called OnTopReplica. Check it out. It's free. Basically, it allows you to view all or part of your Eve screen all the time. I generally stick my scouting alts on a gate, on a wormhole, or in a complex, then set up this program so I can view the overview portion of the scouts' screen at all times. If I see something show up on the screen, I alt tab over and take a closer look. It works really beautifully. It enables me to employ all my alts even with only two screens. It even works while you are watching Youtube videos.

I know people hate being told to "bring friends" or "get an alt," but Eve is a complex game. One pilot cannot usually do everything necessary to ensure its own survival. That is a good thing. Insisting on solo, especially if you are an established player who can afford to PLEX an alt (or have a real job and some disposable income), is really stupid in an MMO.

If you have a philosophical objection to alts, get some friends. When I was a new player, older players let me follow along while they ran missions. I got the loot and salvage, they got company. I'm sure you could find a way to make it worth someone's time to scout for you.

Bring friends or get alts. Otherwise, please stop complaining.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1892 - 2014-12-25 04:16:33 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Yahrr wrote:
Altirius Saldiaro wrote:
...this is an MMO. There are thousands of other players in this game. Go find some friends, form up a fleet, and work together.

Are you volunteering for watching one of the entrances to your wormhole location so the rest of the fleet can do it's thing, or do you recruit noobs for that? I'm asking this as this 'defending' will be much like mining, boring as hell and not worth €15 per month. It will be different in that you can't do it while watching youtube. So in the end it is about alts.


There is a lovely program called OnTopReplica. Check it out. It's free. Basically, it allows you to view all or part of your Eve screen all the time. I generally stick my scouting alts on a gate, on a wormhole, or in a complex, then set up this program so I can view the overview portion of the scouts' screen at all times. If I see something show up on the screen, I alt tab over and take a closer look. It works really beautifully. It enables me to employ all my alts even with only two screens. It even works while you are watching Youtube videos.

I know people hate being told to "bring friends" or "get an alt," but Eve is a complex game. One pilot cannot usually do everything necessary to ensure its own survival. That is a good thing. Insisting on solo, especially if you are an established player who can afford to PLEX an alt (or have a real job and some disposable income), is really stupid in an MMO.

If you have a philosophical objection to alts, get some friends. When I was a new player, older players let me follow along while they ran missions. I got the loot and salvage, they got company. I'm sure you could find a way to make it worth someone's time to scout for you.

Bring friends or get alts. Otherwise, please stop complaining.

Point is things should not be balanced around bring an alt, because in all circumstances that what d-scan invisibility requires. No one is going to be willing to spen there night in a combat probing ship hitting scan every 10 seconds with a recon filter set. No one will be willin to sit at a WH waiting to tell others that a neutral has entered.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Joshua Milton Blahyi
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1893 - 2014-12-25 04:29:52 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:


Point is things should not be balanced around bring an alt, because in all circumstances that what d-scan invisibility requires. No one is going to be willing to spen there night in a combat probing ship hitting scan every 10 seconds with a recon filter set. No one will be willin to sit at a WH waiting to tell others that a neutral has entered.


T3's and D3's can both run probes on a combat fit. No need for an alt if you demand near immunity.

Want to run something else solo you take the risk.

Most of the carebear complaints revolve around not wanting to share the results of their pve with other people. If you are so opposed to working with other people why even play an MMO?
Orange Faeces
Farbissina Industrial and Procurement
#1894 - 2014-12-25 04:31:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Orange Faeces
h3llra1z3r3 Arkaral wrote:

...
Although if I want to run c3 sites solo ( not in a wh corp ) I now have to ask a corp mate to come along and scan probe and a few others to sit on the holes?
Are they doing this for free or are we splitting the profits?
...


This line of argument is obviously nonsense. You already have this problem with T3s either alone or in gangs, and having eyes on all of the wormhole entrances is the only thing that would help you in that case -- the prober wouldn't do you any good anyway. The only difference with the recon d-scan change is a few hundred million isk for the hunter.

I'm not sure how you are able to confuse these issues, but you should probably give up this line of objection.

Edit - More generally, everyone in the game suffers from the same tradeoff -- committing more money/time to having alts, or trusting more people by joining larger organizations versus accomplishing less in the game or taking greater risks. This is not unique to your situation (of running WH sites). The hunters have the same issue and have for some time. By the same rule, true solo work is extremely tricky and has been for years. Many 'soloists' use link alts, neutral scouts or logi, and other intel to get an advantage. In this respect, your concerns do not make you a special or unique snowflake.


O. Faeces
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1895 - 2014-12-25 04:49:57 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
Yahrr wrote:
Altirius Saldiaro wrote:
...this is an MMO. There are thousands of other players in this game. Go find some friends, form up a fleet, and work together.

Are you volunteering for watching one of the entrances to your wormhole location so the rest of the fleet can do it's thing, or do you recruit noobs for that? I'm asking this as this 'defending' will be much like mining, boring as hell and not worth €15 per month. It will be different in that you can't do it while watching youtube. So in the end it is about alts.


There is a lovely program called OnTopReplica. Check it out. It's free. Basically, it allows you to view all or part of your Eve screen all the time. I generally stick my scouting alts on a gate, on a wormhole, or in a complex, then set up this program so I can view the overview portion of the scouts' screen at all times. If I see something show up on the screen, I alt tab over and take a closer look. It works really beautifully. It enables me to employ all my alts even with only two screens. It even works while you are watching Youtube videos.

I know people hate being told to "bring friends" or "get an alt," but Eve is a complex game. One pilot cannot usually do everything necessary to ensure its own survival. That is a good thing. Insisting on solo, especially if you are an established player who can afford to PLEX an alt (or have a real job and some disposable income), is really stupid in an MMO.

If you have a philosophical objection to alts, get some friends. When I was a new player, older players let me follow along while they ran missions. I got the loot and salvage, they got company. I'm sure you could find a way to make it worth someone's time to scout for you.

Bring friends or get alts. Otherwise, please stop complaining.

Point is things should not be balanced around bring an alt, because in all circumstances that what d-scan invisibility requires. No one is going to be willing to spen there night in a combat probing ship hitting scan every 10 seconds with a recon filter set. No one will be willin to sit at a WH waiting to tell others that a neutral has entered.
if you think we should balance gameplay around solo, you are in essence asking to nerf group gameplay. Why would you want that.?
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1896 - 2014-12-25 05:12:47 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
Bring friends or get alts. Otherwise, please stop complaining.

Point is things should not be balanced around bring an alt, because in all circumstances that what d-scan invisibility requires. No one is going to be willing to spen there night in a combat probing ship hitting scan every 10 seconds with a recon filter set. No one will be willin to sit at a WH waiting to tell others that a neutral has entered.
if you think we should balance gameplay around solo, you are in essence asking to nerf group gameplay. Why would you want that.?

Not asking for group play to be nerfed, i am stating that things should not be introduced that all but require the use of an alt.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Yun Kuai
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1897 - 2014-12-25 05:14:47 UTC
h3llra1z3r3 Arkaral wrote:
Quote:
The part where you called it the wrong buff for recons. You seem to think that if this goes away that they will get the hitpoint buff. And that is not the case.


You make an assumption that I made an assumption and call me obtuse?

Quote:
Apparently you misunderstood me. I never said anything about multiple accounts and alts. I am talking about friends. I understand that most of you are anti-social nerds, probably living with your mother's, but this is an MMO. There are thousands of other players in this game. Go find some friends, form up a fleet, and work together.

Dont be scared to make new friends and fly with them.


I understood you, for a worm hole corp that's true.
Although if I want to run c3 sites solo ( not in a wh corp ) I now have to ask a corp mate to come along and scan probe and a few others to sit on the holes?
Are they doing this for free or are we splitting the profits?

What if I am in a wormhole corp and my play time sits a few hours outside of the main group of players?
I think in that case I should actually just ask in local if there is anybody about and see if they will help me scout , that's how you make friends?




You know there is this thing called risk. If you completely negate all the risk, you should be playing hello kitty online. You choose to live in an environment without local to notify you someone is in system with you. How are these changes any different than you logging on after a cloaky T3 or recon is already in system waiting for you to start running sites?

The fact is, yes this change will allow hunters to hunt more effectively. However, lets not choose to ignore the myriad of changes that have effectively stopped people from hunting true solo; AI aggression changes, can't take an acceleration gate cloaked anymore, the session change timer that doesn't let you immediately take a gate after decloaking, the FW beacon "bubble" that won't let you cloak inside, nerfs to ewar strength so we can overheat a few cycles for pre-nerf strength ewar, etc.

So to answer this:
"What if I am in a wormhole corp and my play time sits a few hours outside of the main group of players? "
You suck it up and play. If you get tackled by a lachesis from 50km while he's plinking away you. Watch as the sleepers switch to him. Drop a mobile depot, fit on 1 stab, and warp back to your POS. I mean really....lives in a WH and can't pvp....

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h3llra1z3r3 Arkaral
Hardcore Pwnography Inc.
#1898 - 2014-12-25 05:37:33 UTC
You should probably read my earlier posts about risk being 50/50, I can't be arsed explaining it. I am pretty sure this topic is about to go full circle anyways, so not much more to be said I would think.

I think there are some good points either way on this, even if the blind refuse to think so.
At the end of the day I guess we have no choice and probably never did. Lets see how it pans out.

Also you do realize my questions were generic? I haven't farmed WH's in a year or two. But if it makes you feel better I can't PVP either.
Altirius Saldiaro
Doomheim
#1899 - 2014-12-25 07:09:59 UTC
Yahrr wrote:
Altirius Saldiaro wrote:
...this is an MMO. There are thousands of other players in this game. Go find some friends, form up a fleet, and work together.

Are you volunteering for watching one of the entrances to your wormhole location so the rest of the fleet can do it's thing, or do you recruit noobs for that? I'm asking this as this 'defending' will be much like mining, boring as hell and not worth €15 per month. It will be different in that you can't do it while watching youtube. So in the end it is about alts.


Past couple corps Ive been in, when we ran sites as a corp, our scouts got paid. Everyone who participated in the sites, cleaning up the sites and scouting all got paid. Didnt matter which task you were doing, we all split the pot.

You just have to find some good people who care more about playing EVE together and less about how much isk they can make on their own.

Hell if you are more concerned with making isk on your own and not giving a cut to Corp mates willing to watch your back, then you deserve to die by a combat recon.

Please Turn
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1900 - 2014-12-25 08:15:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Please Turn
Altirius Saldiaro wrote:
Yahrr wrote:
Altirius Saldiaro wrote:
...this is an MMO. There are thousands of other players in this game. Go find some friends, form up a fleet, and work together.

Are you volunteering for watching one of the entrances to your wormhole location so the rest of the fleet can do it's thing, or do you recruit noobs for that? I'm asking this as this 'defending' will be much like mining, boring as hell and not worth €15 per month. It will be different in that you can't do it while watching youtube. So in the end it is about alts.


Past couple corps Ive been in, when we ran sites as a corp, our scouts got paid. Everyone who participated in the sites, cleaning up the sites and scouting all got paid. Didnt matter which task you were doing, we all split the pot.

You just have to find some good people who care more about playing EVE together and less about how much isk they can make on their own.

Hell if you are more concerned with making isk on your own and not giving a cut to Corp mates willing to watch your back, then you deserve to die by a combat recon.



Haha, this guy is the perfect example of what I was saying here: " ... people that lack common sense". Roll

Hmm, you're arguing on the topic of "Alts Online <-> Eve Online" and you've put yourself in the boat of people that are using the same old cliches: sandbox, get some friends, eve is hard, etc. but you've done that using a forum, wait for it, a forum alt. I mean, it is either that or your past couple corps exist only in your imagination.

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