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[Proteus - January] Recon ships

First post First post First post
Author
Equto
Imperium Technologies
#1761 - 2014-12-23 23:01:52 UTC
Roel Yento wrote:
Equto wrote:
Generaloberst Kluntz wrote:
Equto wrote:




That would be applicable if I was a bear but im not, sorry to ruin your name calling. Removing local is not a cure for anything

A PVPer fearing local chat removal.

Where have I said I fear it? Maybe you can point me to that comment. I said it solves nothing and does nothing but allow you to get cheap ganks on bears. I would rather have meaningful small gang combat than managing to get a drop on a 30 day old character because he has no idea what local is. D-Scan removal allows me to strategically make perches and engage fights that I have a rough idea at winning rather than no local which would require 99% of eve both for wars, lowsec, and nullsec to get more alts in cloakies to sit on gates.

EDIT:

Not to mention me spending extra time in each system to determine if anyone is there when looking for kills in an area of space with only a few major hotspots every 10 jumps or so. I would rather jump in and know, hey there isn't anyone here, lets not launch probes.


Removing local adds the necessity of having scouts in your fleets that know how to actually scout. It also makes having a combat prober in your fleet that knows how how to do so important. It also means you need to pay attention to details and people that actively scout help keep your pve efforts safer as opposed to relying on local chat to know if you are safe or not. It makes eve harder having no local but it also increases the chances of fights happening lopsided or equal.

What is wrong with spending time hunting for people? Right now you jump into system and know your risk level. No local, the side with better intel and planning has upper hand. Also, you don't need alts on all gates, it's okay to take the chance that no one swings by or pay a new player in corp or alliance to watch gates while you make money. Could even ask someone ship spinning to listen for sound. Not wanting to take risks or share profits is because of greed, not because of needing alts to scout.


Because if I go roaming alone, hey some people do that, then I don't have room for a combat prober and a scout and a whole host of other fleet positions. Nor do I have the free time to spend 6 hours going through 6-7 systems just to find **** all. Also local does not tell you risk level, it gives you a number of people. That number alone doesn't tell you the fleet composition, if they are in a fleet, if they are communicating, or if they even ready to attack you. In the fleets I have been in the FC will ask for numbers and then what are they. A fleet of 30.... alright what are they, all hulks. 30 for a fleet of 5 would seems like death, local did not tell me they are hulks that why you get intel.

I wish people would stop saying its the perfect intel tool, its not. It tells you 2 things 1. they are in system and 2. who they are. Using those two things you often can't determine anything unless your a miner/ratter in which case you leave anyways or you already have intel on them. Without local the solo and small gang pvp dies, its going to be long, boring, and often without kills. Fleets won't care, if you have 300 dudes sure stick some out with some probes and see whats around.
Frothgar
Moosearmy
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#1762 - 2014-12-23 23:03:10 UTC
Could you update the OP with the new resist profile?

I'm a bit disappointed with recons still being a total non-factor for fleet fights, perhaps a solution would be a touch more less sig and we could look at the total overall resists are.

I think somewhere there is a good balance of sig/resists or even range that will make them viable for some degree of fleet fights.

I'm thinking some way to increase optimal for TDs/Damps/Painters through the use of distortion amps like ECM uses?

Granted I'm some sort of masochist who wants to see sniper BS return ;)
Generaloberst Kluntz
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1763 - 2014-12-23 23:04:24 UTC
FYI there are plenty of tools for that, like Pirate's Little Helper, evewho etc.
Lvzbel Ixtab
Dark Venture Corporation
#1764 - 2014-12-23 23:05:45 UTC
Roel Yento wrote:
Equto wrote:
Generaloberst Kluntz wrote:
Equto wrote:




That would be applicable if I was a bear but im not, sorry to ruin your name calling. Removing local is not a cure for anything

A PVPer fearing local chat removal.

Where have I said I fear it? Maybe you can point me to that comment. I said it solves nothing and does nothing but allow you to get cheap ganks on bears. I would rather have meaningful small gang combat than managing to get a drop on a 30 day old character because he has no idea what local is. D-Scan removal allows me to strategically make perches and engage fights that I have a rough idea at winning rather than no local which would require 99% of eve both for wars, lowsec, and nullsec to get more alts in cloakies to sit on gates.

EDIT:

Not to mention me spending extra time in each system to determine if anyone is there when looking for kills in an area of space with only a few major hotspots every 10 jumps or so. I would rather jump in and know, hey there isn't anyone here, lets not launch probes.


Removing local adds the necessity of having scouts in your fleets that know how to actually scout. It also makes having a combat prober in your fleet that knows how how to do so important. It also means you need to pay attention to details and people that actively scout help keep your pve efforts safer as opposed to relying on local chat to know if you are safe or not. It makes eve harder having no local but it also increases the chances of fights happening lopsided or equal.

What is wrong with spending time hunting for people? Right now you jump into system and know your risk level. No local, the side with better intel and planning has upper hand. Also, you don't need alts on all gates, it's okay to take the chance that no one swings by or pay a new player in corp or alliance to watch gates while you make money. Could even ask someone ship spinning to listen for sound. Not wanting to take risks or share profits is because of greed, not because of needing alts to scout.


I kind of agree but the reason why I dont see this viable is because you are asking someone to get on a Prober (if you want to do it fast) and that leaves this person out of the fight.

No one want to scout their ass off and not get into the fight and this comes from a person who prefer role in a fleet is scouting, so people will end up just having an alt doing it and if this change forces you to have a second account active I dont think is a great idea
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1765 - 2014-12-23 23:10:39 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

  • Finally, I will say again that the directional scan immunity is staying, though we are very aware of concerns (especially concerning FW site abuse) and will watch closely to see how this new capability is used and make any necessary adjustments.

  • Have a great Christmas o/


    Honestly what is wrong with you?

    You take the perfectly reasonable changes (things like resist profiles) and nerf them back to where they started, but you keep the dumbest goddamn overpowered gimmick attribute since interdiction nullification because why not right? Literally "IM CCP RISE AND IM RIGHT ABOUT EVERYTHING OK!"

    I hope the yule lads steal your sausages.
    Infrequent
    Mass Collapse
    It Must Be Jelly Cause Jam Don't Shake
    #1766 - 2014-12-23 23:11:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Infrequent
    I retract my previous applause of these changes, some of them are great still yes, but the T2 resist profile was needed to make recons actually viable in a fleet or in most situations infact. Yes you can still trick a fleet into thinking there is no recon on field (If they're dumb enough not to put eyes on you) but they will still die as soon as they see you on field and they will still die solo to that ratter they were trying to catch for their friends to gank. So we will still see swarms of EWAR T3s and nothing will change (Yes yes they're going to rebalance T3s but not to the point where you would pick T1 tank over actual tank).

    Honestly if you want a combat recon to be any form of combat ship, give it the resists, if you want to give a stealth gimmick, give it to the force recon. Don't screw over both.

    -1
    Lucas Quaan
    the king asked me to guard the mountain
    #1767 - 2014-12-23 23:11:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Quaan
    CCP Rise wrote:
  • We're going to go with a lighter resist profile than originally described, setting all eight recons at the former combat recon resist profile. While we still like the goal of making them more fleet viable, their tank was one of their only stand-out weaknesses and we felt that removing it could make them oppressive at smaller scales. To compensate somewhat we've trimmed 5 more sig radius of each ship.
  • Noooo! :( They still lacked the MWD sig bonus that made HACs viable, at least give them one of those.

    Quote:
  • The Rook is getting a little more PG fitting room and trading the 5% HAM/HML rate of fire bonus for a 7.5% kinetic missile damage bonus. This is typical Kaalakiota bonus, gives the same number of effective launchers, and favors RLML over the rate of fire bonus.
  • I still rather liked the RoF bonus for the RLMLs with the idea that you could potentially burn down a target during a jam cycle and get out. Not a huge fan of the type specific missile bonuses on anything, but the extra fitting is nice. Could we perhaps get the velocity bonus to lights too if you are going to favour RLMLs anyway?
    Ab'del Abu
    Atlantis Ascendant
    #1768 - 2014-12-23 23:17:39 UTC
    Giving combat recons full t2 resists and putting the dscan immunity on hold until there has been a comprehensive overhaul of the system would have been the sensible thing to do.

    What you're doing Mr. CCP Rise is plain bullsmits pretend listening to players. Thanks so much.
    Lvzbel Ixtab
    Dark Venture Corporation
    #1769 - 2014-12-23 23:21:47 UTC
    Infrequent wrote:
    I retract my previous applause of these changes, some of them are great still yes, but the T2 resist profile was needed to make recons actually viable in a fleet or in most situations infact. Yes you can still trick a fleet into thinking there is no recon on field (If they're dumb enough not to put eyes on you) but they will still die as soon as they see you on field and they will still die solo to that ratter they were trying to catch for their friends to gank. So we will still see swarms of EWAR T3s and nothing will change (Yes yes they're going to rebalance T3s but not to the point where you would pick T1 tank over actual tank).

    Honestly if you want a combat recon to be any form of combat ship, give it the resists, if you want to give a stealth gimmick, give it to the force recon. Don't screw over both.

    -1


    Even with having eyes on the fleet, most FC's will just send their recons to the nearest planet to hide them from scouts, at least that's what i would do as an FC, but i do agree they need to be paper thin as a trade off
    xCUSx
    HIgh Sec Care Bears
    Brothers of Tangra
    #1770 - 2014-12-23 23:21:55 UTC
    Yeah, honestly I'd rather lose the scan immunity and get the T2 resist profile, at least for Combat Recons. One of the major roles of these ships is fleet multiplication/disruption, but if they get chased off grid after 20secs by a single wave of drones then whats the point? Just my casual 2 cents.
    Roel Yento
    Native Freshfood
    Minmatar Republic
    #1771 - 2014-12-23 23:23:48 UTC
    Equto wrote:
    Roel Yento wrote:
    Equto wrote:
    Generaloberst Kluntz wrote:
    Equto wrote:




    That would be applicable if I was a bear but im not, sorry to ruin your name calling. Removing local is not a cure for anything

    A PVPer fearing local chat removal.

    Where have I said I fear it? Maybe you can point me to that comment. I said it solves nothing and does nothing but allow you to get cheap ganks on bears. I would rather have meaningful small gang combat than managing to get a drop on a 30 day old character because he has no idea what local is. D-Scan removal allows me to strategically make perches and engage fights that I have a rough idea at winning rather than no local which would require 99% of eve both for wars, lowsec, and nullsec to get more alts in cloakies to sit on gates.

    EDIT:

    Not to mention me spending extra time in each system to determine if anyone is there when looking for kills in an area of space with only a few major hotspots every 10 jumps or so. I would rather jump in and know, hey there isn't anyone here, lets not launch probes.


    Removing local adds the necessity of having scouts in your fleets that know how to actually scout. It also makes having a combat prober in your fleet that knows how how to do so important. It also means you need to pay attention to details and people that actively scout help keep your pve efforts safer as opposed to relying on local chat to know if you are safe or not. It makes eve harder having no local but it also increases the chances of fights happening lopsided or equal.

    What is wrong with spending time hunting for people? Right now you jump into system and know your risk level. No local, the side with better intel and planning has upper hand. Also, you don't need alts on all gates, it's okay to take the chance that no one swings by or pay a new player in corp or alliance to watch gates while you make money. Could even ask someone ship spinning to listen for sound. Not wanting to take risks or share profits is because of greed, not because of needing alts to scout.


    Because if I go roaming alone, hey some people do that, then I don't have room for a combat prober and a scout and a whole host of other fleet positions. Nor do I have the free time to spend 6 hours going through 6-7 systems just to find **** all. Also local does not tell you risk level, it gives you a number of people. That number alone doesn't tell you the fleet composition, if they are in a fleet, if they are communicating, or if they even ready to attack you. In the fleets I have been in the FC will ask for numbers and then what are they. A fleet of 30.... alright what are they, all hulks. 30 for a fleet of 5 would seems like death, local did not tell me they are hulks that why you get intel.

    I wish people would stop saying its the perfect intel tool, its not. It tells you 2 things 1. they are in system and 2. who they are. Using those two things you often can't determine anything unless your a miner/ratter in which case you leave anyways or you already have intel on them. Without local the solo and small gang pvp dies, its going to be long, boring, and often without kills. Fleets won't care, if you have 300 dudes sure stick some out with some probes and see whats around.


    Solo pilot has solo equipment, you can't do it all in one ship. You set your ship up and either fight someone or stick to your engagement profile. No scout because you are solo? Of course not, you are solo. No probes because solo? You chose the ship and fit. Local isn't perfect intel but you can learn a lot about someone in eve with just their character name like ships used, fits used, gang or solo usually, areas of opperation, times they tend to pvp more often, and more. It may take hours to check a few systems and get good intel for invasion or big future gank but doesn't take that long to find a quick fight if people are in system uncloaked.
    h3llra1z3r3 Arkaral
    Hardcore Pwnography Inc.
    #1772 - 2014-12-23 23:25:10 UTC
    We know there are going to be some problems but we don't really care. We are going to implement it anyway, because....

    I want to.

    Sorry to be blunt but it sounds like somebody in a job role that doesn't have the experience to be there. ( note: it's not just about the game )
    According to the way this has been talked about from CCP then this is being rushed. Surely by now you have seen the effects of what happens when game developers rush things? You guys have no need to rush it, we have enough to play with for a few months.

    There are a lot of arguments both ways, you would think at the very least, this would make the people taking your money to say, lets not rush it we should look into it more, we should test it ourselves .
    Or at least come to the community and say we have an idea, it's game changing and we don't really know what will happen, we are going to implement it on the main server for a month and use that as feedback. If A happens then it stays, if B happens then we will review it.

    But instead we have, what seems like a personal agenda to get something into the game, rather than something that is better for the game in general.

    And before you get all excited this actually goes both ways. I think these changes will be bad but I actually have no idea. Even if it turns out to be the best EVE change ever I would still expect it to go through more testing than asking a forum full of over opinionated nerds what they think.

    Rushed ideas are not resolved ideas. no matter how good they may seem.
    Pinky Feldman
    Perkone
    Caldari State
    #1773 - 2014-12-23 23:28:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Feldman
    The d-scan immunity really won't give Combat Recons any extra capabilties over the current Force Recons in regards to ganking. The only real difference is Combat Recons being able to run the sites more effectively due to the cloak restrictons, but if people want to start using Combat Recons to run sites, that just means more expensive killmails.

    Setting up inside of a plex:

    • Combat Recon: Can setup inside of plex off d-scan with tackle mods overheated waiting for someone to fall into their trap.
    • Force Recon: Can setup inside of a plex cloaked off d-scan and decloak when a target appears on short scan to overheat mods.


    Ganking someone inside of a plex.

    • Combat Recon: Hidden from d-scan as you hit the acceleration gate. Visible to target for 5-10 seconds in warp as you land before you can actually tackle anything. Red flashy warping in more likely to trigger warp out reflex for unsuspecting target.
    • Force Recon: Appear on d-scan for 4-6 seconds as you hit the gate then recloak. Land in the site and decloak. You're already motoring into range as you wait out your 5 seconds to lock timer.

    4-6 seconds of appearing on d-scan really isn't much at all and unless the person is spamming the d-scan button, you're probably going to go unnoticed. If the person is spamming the d-scan button and paying that much attention, then they're already dead anyways.

    I think the most disappointing thing here is the lack of any meaningful changes. Sig radius isn't really that big of a deal for small gang stuff. Speed is absolutely everything, and these things will still get kited or brawled down by all flavors of cruiser. I doubt there are many people here who remember how much fun the dual neut HML shield Curse used to be in small gang/solo PVP. I'd link some of the TenTron Curse solo PVP videos here, but it appears he took his youtube channel down.

    EDIT: Forgot about the cloak restrictons inside plexes.
    Roel Yento
    Native Freshfood
    Minmatar Republic
    #1774 - 2014-12-23 23:37:38 UTC
    Lvzbel Ixtab wrote:
    Roel Yento wrote:
    Equto wrote:
    Generaloberst Kluntz wrote:
    Equto wrote:




    That would be applicable if I was a bear but im not, sorry to ruin your name calling. Removing local is not a cure for anything

    A PVPer fearing local chat removal.

    Where have I said I fear it? Maybe you can point me to that comment. I said it solves nothing and does nothing but allow you to get cheap ganks on bears. I would rather have meaningful small gang combat than managing to get a drop on a 30 day old character because he has no idea what local is. D-Scan removal allows me to strategically make perches and engage fights that I have a rough idea at winning rather than no local which would require 99% of eve both for wars, lowsec, and nullsec to get more alts in cloakies to sit on gates.

    EDIT:

    Not to mention me spending extra time in each system to determine if anyone is there when looking for kills in an area of space with only a few major hotspots every 10 jumps or so. I would rather jump in and know, hey there isn't anyone here, lets not launch probes.


    Removing local adds the necessity of having scouts in your fleets that know how to actually scout. It also makes having a combat prober in your fleet that knows how how to do so important. It also means you need to pay attention to details and people that actively scout help keep your pve efforts safer as opposed to relying on local chat to know if you are safe or not. It makes eve harder having no local but it also increases the chances of fights happening lopsided or equal.

    What is wrong with spending time hunting for people? Right now you jump into system and know your risk level. No local, the side with better intel and planning has upper hand. Also, you don't need alts on all gates, it's okay to take the chance that no one swings by or pay a new player in corp or alliance to watch gates while you make money. Could even ask someone ship spinning to listen for sound. Not wanting to take risks or share profits is because of greed, not because of needing alts to scout.


    I kind of agree but the reason why I dont see this viable is because you are asking someone to get on a Prober (if you want to do it fast) and that leaves this person out of the fight.

    No one want to scout their ass off and not get into the fight and this comes from a person who prefer role in a fleet is scouting, so people will end up just having an alt doing it and if this change forces you to have a second account active I dont think is a great idea


    T3's have a subsystem for scanning, can still shoot so they can be on killboards if that is what people want. Also confessor can fit combat probes i hear though haven't flown one. Some drone ships would be good candidates for probers or some ewar ships too.
    Crosi Wesdo
    War and Order
    #1775 - 2014-12-23 23:39:30 UTC
    I personally think i can use the dscan immunity to get cheap gankg more often that with a cloak. Also, its not very common to arrive on a gate and the person inside not know you are there. With a hostile in system its not uncommon to spam scan.

    What i am curious about, is why the change at all. There has been no clarification of its intended purpose. Please tell me its not just to keep a few staff members busy since they dont have any better changes to work towards.
    Pinky Feldman
    Perkone
    Caldari State
    #1776 - 2014-12-23 23:47:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Feldman
    Crosi Wesdo wrote:
    I personally think i can use the dscan immunity to get cheap gankg more often that with a cloak. Also, its not very common to arrive on a gate and the person inside not know you are there. With a hostile in system its not uncommon to spam scan.

    What i am curious about, is why the change at all. There has been no clarification of its intended purpose. Please tell me its not just to keep a few staff members busy since they dont have any better changes to work towards.


    Yeah though if you're paying that much attention to d-scan you'll have no problem simply warping out as they land on grid. Whenever I ran plexes, half the time I didn't even bother spamming d-scan since you generally have plenty of time to alt tab to your client and click the warp button as soon as you catch the hostile landing in your plex.

    Even then, if you pre-align and activate the gate right as you hit the limit of your decloak, you can re-cloak almost immediately. If you're not dilligent enough to do this with Force Recons, then you're probably not going to be that effective setting traps with the new Combat Recons.

    These have more significant implications for wormhole PVP than anything else really. Some more speed would go a long way in opening up them to useful small gang roles like they used to have before the other Cruisers got massive speed buffs.
    epicurus ataraxia
    Illusion of Solitude.
    Illusion of Solitude
    #1777 - 2014-12-24 00:19:42 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
    Re the caldari recons, Just a quick query, is the lack of velocity bonus on rapid lights just a typo and just copying from the old bonus?
    If you are going to favour rapid lights as you seem to be doing by changing from rate of fire to damage, I imagine that was your intention?

    As a suggestion, rather than limiting bonused damage to kinetic, could you please make it kinetic and thermal missiles to give some combat choice? This choice has Worked on the guristas ships.

    Disappointed on the removal of T2 resists, that felt approriate as an improvement.
    Possibly the traditional caldari 4% resist bonus per level would be an acceptable alternative

    There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

    Casirio
    Aliastra
    Gallente Federation
    #1778 - 2014-12-24 00:19:48 UTC
    Oh don't worry CCP, we'll just keep using T3's and leaving the recons in the hanger.

    Good job at removing T2 resists, you know, the one feature everyone in nullsec was excited about.

    Literally ruined the viability of combat recons in large engagements.

    and you ruined Christmas.

    Thanks CCP
    Lvzbel Ixtab
    Dark Venture Corporation
    #1779 - 2014-12-24 00:21:35 UTC
    Pinky Feldman wrote:
    Crosi Wesdo wrote:
    I personally think i can use the dscan immunity to get cheap gankg more often that with a cloak. Also, its not very common to arrive on a gate and the person inside not know you are there. With a hostile in system its not uncommon to spam scan.

    What i am curious about, is why the change at all. There has been no clarification of its intended purpose. Please tell me its not just to keep a few staff members busy since they dont have any better changes to work towards.


    Yeah though if you're paying that much attention to d-scan you'll have no problem simply warping out as they land on grid. Whenever I ran plexes, half the time I didn't even bother spamming d-scan since you generally have plenty of time to alt tab to your client and click the warp button as soon as you catch the hostile landing in your plex.

    Even then, if you pre-align and activate the gate right as you hit the limit of your decloak, you can re-cloak almost immediately. If you're not dilligent enough to do this with Force Recons, then you're probably not going to be that effective setting traps with the new Combat Recons.

    These have more significant implications for wormhole PVP than anything else really. Some more speed would go a long way in opening up them to useful small gang roles like they used to have before the other Cruisers got massive speed buffs.


    You know u cant cloak anymore inside a plex within 30km of the beacon, secondly most people here complaining about FW space are no talking about farming, most people that farm are stab anyways we are talking about actual pvp inside plexes and outside
    Ehud Gera
    Equitable Affront
    #1780 - 2014-12-24 00:21:46 UTC
    h3llra1z3r3 Arkaral wrote:
    We know there are going to be some problems but we don't really care. We are going to implement it anyway, because....

    I want to.

    Sorry to be blunt but it sounds like somebody in a job role that doesn't have the experience to be there. ( note: it's not just about the game )
    According to the way this has been talked about from CCP then this is being rushed. Surely by now you have seen the effects of what happens when game developers rush things? You guys have no need to rush it, we have enough to play with for a few months.

    There are a lot of arguments both ways, you would think at the very least, this would make the people taking your money to say, lets not rush it we should look into it more, we should test it ourselves .
    Or at least come to the community and say we have an idea, it's game changing and we don't really know what will happen, we are going to implement it on the main server for a month and use that as feedback. If A happens then it stays, if B happens then we will review it.

    But instead we have, what seems like a personal agenda to get something into the game, rather than something that is better for the game in general.

    And before you get all excited this actually goes both ways. I think these changes will be bad but I actually have no idea. Even if it turns out to be the best EVE change ever I would still expect it to go through more testing than asking a forum full of over opinionated nerds what they think.

    Rushed ideas are not resolved ideas. no matter how good they may seem.


    I've said a lot in this forum, but this guy said everything right^^