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[Proteus - January] Recon ships

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Author
Niskin
The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.
The Chicken Coop
#1541 - 2014-12-22 17:35:05 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Belinda HwaFang wrote:
However, since Combat Recons don't need a cloak to hide from DSCAN they can appear on grid from out of nowhere and point the target without worry of any targeting delay because they were never cloaked in the first place


To be fair, you're on grid a good while "decelerating" before locking is a possibility.

We've all seen the reverse when a hostile warps in and you're mashing lock and getting nothing but "target is invulnerable" messages back until it's "out of warp".

Something small would get out, something bigger and fit for PvP should be equipped to punch it in the face. Curse is probably the most dangerous in this scenario.



People do seem fixated on the "victim" (the person warped to) though, as if there is no possibility of there being a curse or two waiting at the warp in point to give a would be pirate the good news. These will be glorious over/under/all around bait cynos Pirate


'target is invulnerable' is not the same as 'being in warp'.

I know eve is a hard game but i wish people would realise how little they know sometimes.

'target is invulnerable' when a target actually lands can be canceled by the invulnerable party by performing an action. otherwise it lasts quite some time (dont know exactly, perhaps 10 seconds) before you can lock it. He can however, start locking you and go vunlerable as soon as he likes.


You just described how undocking works, and how titan bridging works, but that is NOT how warping works. When you warp you are invulnerable from the time your ship successfully activates the warp drive, until you have completely exited your warp at the other end. Your actions will be denied until you leave warp and you will be lockable as soon as you exit warp. There is no timed and/or breakable immunity on a warp tunnel exit. If you can lock them they can lock you.

It's Dark In Here - The Lonely Wormhole Blog

Remember kiddies: the best ship in Eve is Friendship.

-MooMooDachshundCow

Amanda Orion
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1542 - 2014-12-22 17:39:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Amanda Orion
Marlona Sky wrote:

ECM is a terrible mechanic for a couple reasons:

  • Obviously not being able to lock a target means it functions as a 'Get out of jail free' card for the enemy of the person who is jammed resulting in less combat.
  • Out of all the EW drones being built, almost all are ECM drones. This is not because the other ones are worthless. It is just because ECM is so powerful. I mean after all; why damp/paint/web/tracking disrupt when you can make the target unable to lock anything?
  • Because ECM is so over the top powerful when it works, the fast dirty way of balancing it has been to reduce the chance it will work resulting in nothing happening when the module is activated. This is a terrible light switch mechanic. All or nothing.
  • There is no counter play for those who are jammed. For 20 seconds plus the amount of time it takes to relock the targets - there is nothing you can do. Sure some will go on about using drones, smartbombs and F.O.F. missiles, but no one is ever able to provide results where these things caused them to win the fight. The ship ECMing the target is almost always aligned so even if they put drones on the them, they will just warp to a ping (which is even easier now with on grid bookmarks visible) and they will be rejammed as soon as it lands. Smartbombs only work if the enemy ships are in range and again, decides to stick around long enough to die to them. Even if you killed the ECM drones with the smartbombs, chances are that 20+ seconds was enough to tip the scale in the fight anyways. Obviously F.O.F. missiles are a joke, especially considering if the person being jammed is not in a missile boat, they don't get to use them.

ECM is just a bad game mechanic. Notice how almost all of the arguments against combat recons not being on directional scanner uses the Rook in the example. It's not necessarily the Rook they fear, it is ECM.

ECM does not need to be nerfed. It needs to be replaced!

We have tracking disruption, a missile disruption EW would be welcomed. Everyone is so sick of Drones Online, where is the drone disruption? Would be nice to target that Ishtar/Dominix, turn on my Balmer series drone disruption and those sentries become less effective at those extreme ranges. Even if you guys are not ready to release new EW, at least replace ECM with a couple existing EW in the game until then. Target painting makes sense.

With ECM out of the picture, you can get rid of ECCM resulting in far less off grid boosting ships as well. (sorry slippery Petes. you were a cowards ship anyways)

There is no point in leaving in such a terrible game mechanic when you guys can easily pull it right now and replace it with existing EW that actually has counter play.


Anything that can create this many tears is Poetry in Motion.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1543 - 2014-12-22 17:44:07 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Just don't forget the cancer that is ultra easy and effort free perfect intel. It results in far less fights. If not appearing on the directional scanner is not an option, then perhaps not appearing in local chat is. And don't worry about those nullbears, everyone has intel channels and of course the d-scan. If they are proactive in gathering intel for a change, then combat recons will not be the END OF DAYS as some are saying. Don't give in to the fear mongering!

TBH I would much rather them disappear from local than D-Scan.

D-Scan is a legitimate intelligence tool, local chat is abused into a resource tool.

Don't make ships ignore legit intel and perpetuate local intel.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Alundil
Rolled Out
#1544 - 2014-12-22 17:45:35 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Just don't forget the cancer that is ultra easy and effort free perfect intel. It results in far less fights. If not appearing on the directional scanner is not an option, then perhaps not appearing in local chat is. And don't worry about those nullbears, everyone has intel channels and of course the d-scan. If they are proactive in gathering intel for a change, then combat recons will not be the END OF DAYS as some are saying. Don't give in to the fear mongering!

I think the Combat Recon changes will be fine in the long run either way. It'll shake up the current meta a bit now and that's cool. However, I think that a far better change would have been to prevent pilots of combat recons appearing in local instead of blocking them from d-scan.

It leaves room for the attentive pilot to gain some intel. It still penalizes those who aren't paying attention. And local is a ****** free intel tool anyways and needs to diaf.

I'm right behind you

Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#1545 - 2014-12-22 17:49:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Marlona Sky wrote:
Just don't forget the cancer that is ultra easy and effort free perfect intel. It results in far less fights. If not appearing on the directional scanner is not an option, then perhaps not appearing in local chat is. And don't worry about those nullbears, everyone has intel channels and of course the d-scan. If they are proactive in gathering intel for a change, then combat recons will not be the END OF DAYS as some are saying. Don't give in to the fear mongering!


Id rather have perfect intel and relying on tricks, skill and my targets laziness than just being handed effortless kills.

Each to their own though i guess.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1546 - 2014-12-22 17:49:10 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Marlona Sky wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Monday update - I'm working on a revised proposal but it's a bit slow going with everyone but me out of the office to visit their families (boring). Hopefully some new stuff for you guys soon.

  • Out of all the EW drones being built, almost all are ECM drones. This is not because the other ones are worthless. It is just because ECM is so powerful. I mean after all; why damp/paint/web/tracking disrupt when you can make the target unable to lock anything?


  • Well, the other EWAR drones being literally terrible doesn't help much. Either castrated by stacking penalties or so ineffective as to be laughable (neut drones) or bugged (webs).

    You could delete ECM tomorrow and the ewar drone landscape wouldn't change. It is never worth losing the damage potential for the pissant returns they give.

    I suggested these were given the gecko treatment before but don't know that they cared for it. Gecko treatment being bulking up size and bandwidth to allow sidestepping stacking penalties and allowing buffed ewar effects.
    Niskin
    The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.
    The Chicken Coop
    #1547 - 2014-12-22 17:51:51 UTC
    As a true solo player, with one account only, I hear these solo player complaints but still disagree. It will be more risky unless you are willing to put in a little more effort. You will have to operate away from the entrance of a plex. You may need a Mobile Tractor Unit, placed away from the entrance also, if you want to collect loot more safely. You will have to watch the overview as diligently as the d-scan window.

    When looking to warp into a plex you will have to do more work also. Fitting an Expanded Scan Probe launcher to your ship isn't going to be a reasonable option in most cases. I've operated solo for a long time, I use all three of my character slots. In low sec, if I was in FW again, I'd keep my alt nearby in a T1 scanning frigate with probes. It takes a few extra minutes but you can check the system with combat probes to see if any recons are operating in the area. That will at least get you a safer entry to the plex.

    Being a solo player in EVE requires the most effort, the most risk, and you will likely be the one most affected by these kinds of changes. That's just how the game works, you have to be really good and knowledgeable about the game to hold your own against other soloers and groups. When something changes you should be the first one reading about it, planning contingencies and adapting.

    Being solo in EVE may be workable for those with casual play styles, but it's not for those who are casual about understanding and exploiting game mechanics. I spend about half the time I could be playing the game reading and learning tricks, and it makes a difference. More playtime and less knowledge would just get me dead more often.

    It's Dark In Here - The Lonely Wormhole Blog

    Remember kiddies: the best ship in Eve is Friendship.

    -MooMooDachshundCow

    Antillie Sa'Kan
    Imperial Shipment
    Amarr Empire
    #1548 - 2014-12-22 18:21:55 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:
    Monday update - I'm working on a revised proposal but it's a bit slow going with everyone but me out of the office to visit their families (boring). Hopefully some new stuff for you guys soon.

    The current proposal is fine tbh. If you drop the HAC resists then the recons will need some more DPS to be competitive in small gangs. Won't help them in fleets though, where they will remain trash.
    Jeremiah Saken
    The Fall of Leviathan
    #1549 - 2014-12-22 18:24:03 UTC
    Niskin wrote:
    As a true solo player, with one account only,

    Good start...
    Niskin wrote:
    I've operated solo for a long time, I use all three of my character slots. In low sec, if I was in FW again, I'd keep my alt nearby in a T1 scanning frigate with probes.

    ...and you lost it. Game of alts again. Show me your b...s and try it with one char only, then we will speak. Everytime i have a problem with game mechanics all i hear is bring an alt...

    "I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

    Niskin
    The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.
    The Chicken Coop
    #1550 - 2014-12-22 18:35:28 UTC
    Jeremiah Saken wrote:
    Niskin wrote:
    As a true solo player, with one account only,

    Good start...
    Niskin wrote:
    I've operated solo for a long time, I use all three of my character slots. In low sec, if I was in FW again, I'd keep my alt nearby in a T1 scanning frigate with probes.

    ...and you lost it. Game of alts again. Show me your b...s and try it with one char only, then we will speak. Everytime i have a problem with game mechanics all i hear is bring an alt...


    Ok, dock up and buy a T1 frigate and Expanded launcher whenever you need one... single character solution solved. Or you could use the alt and save yourself time and money, which is what I would do. Not to mention it's quicker to just switch characters and probe and switch back. I do stuff like this all the time when it would be useful to have a second account.

    The issue with needing an alt revolves around paying for an additional account so you can have both characters online at the same time. I'm telling you how to avoid that. If you can't handle "Quit Game, Click Play on already authenticated launcher, Use Alt" then nobody can help you. Use the resources that are available to you, or don't, but that doesn't mean they aren't available.

    It's Dark In Here - The Lonely Wormhole Blog

    Remember kiddies: the best ship in Eve is Friendship.

    -MooMooDachshundCow

    hellokittyonline
    Hellokitty's Online Adventure
    #1551 - 2014-12-22 19:00:42 UTC
    Niskin wrote:
    Jeremiah Saken wrote:
    Niskin wrote:
    As a true solo player, with one account only,

    Good start...
    Niskin wrote:
    I've operated solo for a long time, I use all three of my character slots. In low sec, if I was in FW again, I'd keep my alt nearby in a T1 scanning frigate with probes.

    ...and you lost it. Game of alts again. Show me your b...s and try it with one char only, then we will speak. Everytime i have a problem with game mechanics all i hear is bring an alt...


    Ok, dock up and buy a T1 frigate and Expanded launcher whenever you need one... single character solution solved. Or you could use the alt and save yourself time and money, which is what I would do. Not to mention it's quicker to just switch characters and probe and switch back. I do stuff like this all the time when it would be useful to have a second account.

    The issue with needing an alt revolves around paying for an additional account so you can have both characters online at the same time. I'm telling you how to avoid that. If you can't handle "Quit Game, Click Play on already authenticated launcher, Use Alt" then nobody can help you. Use the resources that are available to you, or don't, but that doesn't mean they aren't available.

    Except when you're roaming around PvPing that means you need to log off/have an alt in every system.

    The last thing this game needs is another reason to take on another sub. Furthermore, the last thing low-sec in particular needs is another completely broken mechanic for all the "pay to win" scrubs to exploit.
    Ehud Gera
    Wildcard.
    Boundary Experts
    #1552 - 2014-12-22 19:00:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Ehud Gera
    As Crosi put it, make Recon invisible on Local Chat

    This^ Would be legit.

    And really fits the "Recon" idea without taking on 90% of the role of the covert cloak with none of the drawbacks as immunity would.
    Helene Fidard
    CTRL-Q
    #1553 - 2014-12-22 19:21:20 UTC
    Niskin wrote:
    Your actions will be denied until you leave warp and you will be lockable as soon as you exit warp. There is no timed and/or breakable immunity on a warp tunnel exit. If you can lock them they can lock you.

    You should test this out sometime. You might be surprised.

    Hey! I don't know about you

    but I'm joining CTRL-Q

    Marlona Sky
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #1554 - 2014-12-22 19:27:03 UTC
    One more thing. You can also restrict combat recons from fitting a cyno if you go with the no local route.
    Crosi Wesdo
    War and Order
    #1555 - 2014-12-22 19:28:00 UTC
    Ehud Gera wrote:
    As Crosi put it, make Recon invisible on Local Chat

    This^ Would be legit.

    And really fits the "Recon" idea without taking on 90% of the role of the covert cloak with none of the drawbacks as immunity would.


    I didnt put that. Nor would i endorse it.
    Ehud Gera
    Wildcard.
    Boundary Experts
    #1556 - 2014-12-22 19:30:24 UTC
    Crosi Wesdo wrote:
    Ehud Gera wrote:
    As Crosi put it, make Recon invisible on Local Chat

    This^ Would be legit.

    And really fits the "Recon" idea without taking on 90% of the role of the covert cloak with none of the drawbacks as immunity would.


    I didnt put that. Nor would i endorse it.



    Sry Crosi, misquoted, I think it was someone else.
    Barrett Fruitcake
    Doomheim
    #1557 - 2014-12-22 19:46:14 UTC
    I hope CCP doesn't cave on a great new step in getting rid of perfect intel due to a bunch of players unwilling to adapt to such changes.
    Most of what has made Eve strong is the constant re-invention of the game. Don't lose sight of that.

    Oh yeah; adapt or cry in your bear threatening to unsub, only to adapt later once you realize your threatening to unsub has been used more than "crying wolf" and has lost its apparent effect.



    Niskin
    The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.
    The Chicken Coop
    #1558 - 2014-12-22 19:58:39 UTC
    hellokittyonline wrote:

    Except when you're roaming around PvPing that means you need to log off/have an alt in every system.


    Log off, yes. Have alt in every system, no. Or alternatively you could just scout the plex in your pod, no logoff required.

    hellokittyonline wrote:

    The last thing this game needs is another reason to take on another sub. Furthermore, the last thing low-sec in particular needs is another completely broken mechanic for all the "pay to win" scrubs to exploit.


    Nothing I described requires another sub. I have only ever had one account. I make suggestions based on how I would operate with my one account in the various situations that are being described.

    It's Dark In Here - The Lonely Wormhole Blog

    Remember kiddies: the best ship in Eve is Friendship.

    -MooMooDachshundCow

    hellokittyonline
    Hellokitty's Online Adventure
    #1559 - 2014-12-22 19:58:41 UTC
    Barrett Fruitcake wrote:
    I hope CCP doesn't cave on a great new step in getting rid of perfect intel due to a bunch of players unwilling to adapt to such changes.
    Most of what has made Eve strong is the constant re-invention of the game. Don't lose sight of that.

    Oh yeah; adapt or cry in your bear threatening to unsub, only to adapt later once you realize your threatening to unsub has been used more than "crying wolf" and has lost its apparent effect.

    Do you even read bro? Clearly another scrub looking for ez kills. Most of the issued raised are from actual PvPers looking for changes that encourage skillbased, gimmick-free PvP instead of the war of alts we have right now.
    Niskin
    The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.
    The Chicken Coop
    #1560 - 2014-12-22 20:02:52 UTC
    Helene Fidard wrote:
    Niskin wrote:
    Your actions will be denied until you leave warp and you will be lockable as soon as you exit warp. There is no timed and/or breakable immunity on a warp tunnel exit. If you can lock them they can lock you.

    You should test this out sometime. You might be surprised.


    Maybe I would be. Can you point to a patch note where this was changed? Or is this just due to differing lag between the two parties and CCP?

    It's Dark In Here - The Lonely Wormhole Blog

    Remember kiddies: the best ship in Eve is Friendship.

    -MooMooDachshundCow