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[Proteus - January] Recon ships

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TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1301 - 2014-12-20 20:12:49 UTC
Mei Khlolov wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:


mixed drone waves are cancer


How so


because they're easier to kill, you get fewer spares, and you're mixing up your tracking and speed loads, and you're making everyone pay loads of money for geckos. and it's just needlessly complicated. imagine if I suggested that the way to fix a low-damage frigate would be to let it replace one of its small guns with a medium gun. you'd hopefully see that that's really stupid.
Vincintius Agrippa
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
#1302 - 2014-12-20 20:17:24 UTC
Well congrats, you have destroyed medium and up faction warfare sites, along with other dead space sites. Being able to enter system, warp to beacon, activate gate without being detected, Its too.......op. H. Its like a cloak without a cloak and its targeting and speed penalties.

Perhaps a less drastic buff.

May I suggest an immunity up to 10AU, 7.5Au minimum? Meaning you can get to within 10Au before being detected on d-scan. I mean d-scan has a max range of what, 14-15Au for ships? 7.5 Au sounds good. That's half d-scan range.
Only YOU can prevent internet bullying!
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1303 - 2014-12-20 20:24:37 UTC
hellokittyonline wrote:

If they were changing something that ruined a character you had been training for years I would say otherwise, that would be where your opinion should come into consideration. This is not one of those scenarios.


And this right here is why your opinion is irrelevant.

It's just based on blatant selfishness.

According to what you just said, a capital ship pilot holding onto his golden goose should have priority in balance discussions just because he's sunk a lot of time into it. Nevermind that carriers are broken, Titans were broken, and the jump range changes went through afterall, despite the objections of people who had been "training for years".

**** no. And if you can't see how incredibly bad that is, then you're blind.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#1304 - 2014-12-20 20:25:49 UTC
hellokittyonline wrote:
Delt0r Garsk wrote:
hellokittyonline wrote:
Delt0r Garsk wrote:
I am not sure why the dscan immunity is such a big deal. Instead of a Rapier, now i have a reason to fly a Hugin. What case does dscan change having a gang on a plex cloaked vers dscan immune? seriously whats the difference?

And in WHs who the hell is flying around without a cloakie. We just don't fly non cloaks most of the time. I sure as hell aren't going to waste time ratting sleepers in anything smaller than a t3. It would just be far too slow.

Because if I warp to a medium with a slasher in it for a GF, all I have to do is wait a few seconds to know if there is a pilgrim on the other side because he has to decloak PRIOR to me arriving in the plex to be able to lock me. Furthermore, said pilgrim has to be 30km+ (outside of pointrange) away from the beacon to cloak.

Not inside the plex, on the acceleration gate. Where we put our camps.


In which case i spam the gate and warp away on the other side

We use remote sebo instalockers... solo players never get away.

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#1305 - 2014-12-20 20:28:00 UTC
hellokittyonline wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
hellokittyonline wrote:

Honestly, you're playing in a smaller birdcage than I am and acting like the entire game should revolve around you wanting to fly a different ship. You want to fly a new ship? Do something new. That's what I did.


Says the guy arguing that his desire to not have scouts in his fleet should dictate game balance?


yet again, not constructive.

I never said we don't have scouts, I said that I don't know a single PvPer who wants to be a probing scout for a combat fleet. We use scouts all the time, but all but requiring a probe launcher definitely hurts the folks who like to (or have to because newbros) fly small frig/dessy gangs and do not have the resources to sub an alt for that sole purpose.

Furthermore what the hell does having scouts have to do with the size of my "birdcage". I've clearly broken you. I'm sorry.


Good frigate gangs can really benefit from bringing along a prober. It opens up so many potential targets. But please, by all means, continue to limit yourself and give me one less thing to worry about.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

hellokittyonline
Hellokitty's Online Adventure
#1306 - 2014-12-20 20:32:26 UTC
Delt0r Garsk wrote:
hellokittyonline wrote:
Delt0r Garsk wrote:
hellokittyonline wrote:
Delt0r Garsk wrote:
I am not sure why the dscan immunity is such a big deal. Instead of a Rapier, now i have a reason to fly a Hugin. What case does dscan change having a gang on a plex cloaked vers dscan immune? seriously whats the difference?

And in WHs who the hell is flying around without a cloakie. We just don't fly non cloaks most of the time. I sure as hell aren't going to waste time ratting sleepers in anything smaller than a t3. It would just be far too slow.

Because if I warp to a medium with a slasher in it for a GF, all I have to do is wait a few seconds to know if there is a pilgrim on the other side because he has to decloak PRIOR to me arriving in the plex to be able to lock me. Furthermore, said pilgrim has to be 30km+ (outside of pointrange) away from the beacon to cloak.

Not inside the plex, on the acceleration gate. Where we put our camps.


In which case i spam the gate and warp away on the other side

We use remote sebo instalockers... solo players never get away.

Oh... You clearly don't know how the acceleration gates work. I will refrain from enlightening you as that's one less trap I have to worry about ;)
Joshua Milton Blahyi
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1307 - 2014-12-20 20:44:51 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
so people are saying to 'just use probes'.

how do I fit an expanded probe launcher to my thorax?


Have your links pilot put out probes.

Or fly Legion with ELA sub. You lose a mid but get all the scans.

Or have a fleet mate in a confessor.

Or maybe small gang always should have included a scout, CCP just removed the option.
Tabimatha
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1308 - 2014-12-20 20:52:12 UTC
Please don't do the dscan immunity. It's so bad for solo and micro gang pvp.

When you want to get busy in a system with a lot in local all you have is dscan to give you some small warning that you're about to get blobbed if everyone wakes up. Your example of how it could make people less risk averse since they don't see the two rooks is an example of how you get surprise permajammed and die doing nothing....not exactly a great pvp experience. Having to use scouts/alts to check every station and probe systems before engaging is just super annoying and slows down pvp terribly.

Smart good pvpers who aren't risk averse will be forced to be more risk averse and/or forced into flying certain ships and styles. Please no.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1309 - 2014-12-20 20:54:23 UTC
Joshua Milton Blahyi wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
so people are saying to 'just use probes'.

how do I fit an expanded probe launcher to my thorax?


Have your links pilot put out probes.

Or fly Legion with ELA sub. You lose a mid but get all the scans.

Or have a fleet mate in a confessor.

Or maybe small gang always should have included a scout, CCP just removed the option.


I want to fly a thorax, not a legion or confessor.
Gallowmere Rorschach
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1310 - 2014-12-20 20:55:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Gallowmere Rorschach
CCP Rise wrote:

  • Biggest concern at the moment is the added EHP. Making recons a more realistic fleet option next to T3 cruisers is good, making them too tanky in smaller situations where their ewar already gives them a lot of damage evasion may be too much. Not sure if change is needed but will keep looking at this and update again asap.

  • Dscan immunity is staying. We understand a lot of the concerns raised, but for most of them you guys are doing a great job making strong counter-arguments and I think it will be very interesting to see how this mechanic plays out on TQ. I want to put together a lengthier post soon with more explanation for this mechanic and why we feel comfortable with it, but you will have to wait a bit longer for that.
    • I can't say that I am a fan of the reasoning presented by these two points, when taken together.
    Do I like the idea of dscan immunity? Hell yes.
    If I had to chose between the two, would I take it over an EHP buff to the Recons? Absolutely not.
    The ships function relatively well as they are currently, but as you said, making them a more viable option to fleets, when compared to the T3s should be the more pressing issue here.

    Basically, if I were put in a position of having to choose one or the other, I'd take the most minor EHP increase over the dscan immunity any day of the week.
    maCH'EttE
    Perkone
    Caldari State
    #1311 - 2014-12-20 20:56:11 UTC
    You are all MONKEYS playing in a sandbox controlled by NO GOOD CCP RISE AND CCP FONZIE.
    Dani Maulerant
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #1312 - 2014-12-20 21:07:14 UTC
    So still no word on what the balancing drawback is for dscan immunity...
    Ferris O'Shaunessy
    Hat Creek Exploration and Salvage
    #1313 - 2014-12-20 21:12:21 UTC
    The d-scan immunity would certainly make for some unique opportunities, but applying a blanket immunity seems.. Contentious. What if the recons got a conditional immunity that wouldn't undermine their new unique role, but would still allow for balance? Something like they can be scanned at ranges less than 6au, and only when 'active', ie warping, fighting or using a prop mod. At longer ranges or when the ship is lurking passively, it remains off d-scan. Would that work at all?
    John Seresso Duellos
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #1314 - 2014-12-20 21:16:22 UTC
    As a Pilgrim pilot I must say that change from strength to range bonus limits usability of this ship a lot.
    Like many people said before - this will wipe out the last reason to use Pilgrim over Curse. The range bonus totally breaks current applications of Pilgrim and makes it unusable. This is great small gang and solo ship which is able to cap out enemy. After changes it won't be able to cap out anything. It will rather cap out itself.

    The second thing about Proteus changes is dscan thingy. When I first read it I was "wow nice, this gives us a lot of opportunities", but after cool down and rethinking it, this is rather "wow this gives us a lot of opportunities to lost our ships". Dscan is something on what so many if not every EVE player rely on. If people can't trust their dscan, the risk/reward ratio will increase to much. I imagine it that after Proteus there will be only fleets of Combat Recons roaming around and exploration will move back to hi-sec.

    CCP please keep the FULL strength bonus on Pilgrim and rethink the idea of destructing the dscan reliance please.
    Sabrina Scatterbrain
    United Souls Research And Development
    #1315 - 2014-12-20 21:55:24 UTC
    Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
    TrouserDeagle wrote:
    so people are saying to 'just use probes'.

    how do I fit an expanded probe launcher to my thorax?


    I refuse to believe that Shadow Cartel of all people are unaware of what scouts are, and how to make good use of them.



    Yep, because you can get anyone, especially dumb new guys, to sit around with dycke in hand while you enjoy your game, or do you mean spend more money on another account...

    Either way your statement sucks nuts.
    Kaarous Aldurald
    Black Hydra Consortium.
    #1316 - 2014-12-20 21:59:57 UTC
    Sabrina Scatterbrain wrote:
    Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
    TrouserDeagle wrote:
    so people are saying to 'just use probes'.

    how do I fit an expanded probe launcher to my thorax?


    I refuse to believe that Shadow Cartel of all people are unaware of what scouts are, and how to make good use of them.



    Yep, because you can get anyone, especially dumb new guys, to sit around with dycke in hand while you enjoy your game, or do you mean spend more money on another account...

    Either way your statement sucks nuts.


    So, either my current and my previous corp are some of the best players in the game... or just using a freaking scout is not as hard as you make it out to be.

    Plenty of people get it done without breaking their banks or abusing their newbies.

    Idk what your problem is.

    "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

    One of ours, ten of theirs.

    Best Meltdown Ever.
    The Renner
    Canadian Operations
    #1317 - 2014-12-20 22:01:14 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:
    Just finished reading everything that was posted over night. Here's what I can update with at the moment:

  • Biggest concern at the moment is the added EHP. Making recons a more realistic fleet option next to T3 cruisers is good, making them too tanky in smaller situations where their ewar already gives them a lot of damage evasion may be too much. Not sure if change is needed but will keep looking at this and update again asap.



    • This is the single most important change recons needed, without the added EHP they will continue to be too flimsy for large fleets and largely replaced by T3 cruisers.


    CCP Rise wrote:

  • Dscan immunity is staying. We understand a lot of the concerns raised, but for most of them you guys are doing a great job making strong counter-arguments and I think it will be very interesting to see how this mechanic plays out on TQ. I want to put together a lengthier post soon with more explanation for this mechanic and why we feel comfortable with it, but you will have to wait a bit longer for that.



    • plz no, unless you think having an alt to watch the acceleration gate in a plex when there are other people in system should be a requirement now?
    Sabrina Scatterbrain
    United Souls Research And Development
    #1318 - 2014-12-20 22:03:28 UTC
    The end result of Dscan buggery will be that wormhole space is dead and current blob mechanics will shift to Recon blobs, good job CCP, good job.
    Kaarous Aldurald
    Black Hydra Consortium.
    #1319 - 2014-12-20 22:11:16 UTC
    Sabrina Scatterbrain wrote:
    The end result of Dscan buggery will be that wormhole space is dead and current blob mechanics will shift to Recon blobs, good job CCP, good job.


    Please explain how anybody but carebear farmers would be hurt by this in wormholes. Especially seeing as how wormholers often fly ships that will reduce a solo recon to dust without much trouble, even after an EHP buff.

    "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

    One of ours, ten of theirs.

    Best Meltdown Ever.
    Ehud Gera
    Wildcard.
    Boundary Experts
    #1320 - 2014-12-20 22:18:58 UTC
    @CCP Rise.

    Can we get that explanation soon about the reasoning behind why you think Dscan immunity won't be OP?

    I've been waiting with bated breath.

    Especially (since you haven't released it yet), can you explain how it won't be OP in regards to small gang and solo?

    This is really important to a lot of us.

    Thanks so much in advance!!!

    Ehud

    PS: Playerbase includes many who want a balanced opportunity in Solo, Small Gang, and even those who just like to farm in WH's. I LIKE DOING WORK TO CATCH MY TARGETS.

    PPS: Perhaps ask guys like Wingspan TT if things like bomb deliveries would be as fun if pilots didn't have to work so hard to catch their targets. Blink Cloaked ganking is it's own reward, Dscan Immunity is the easy button.