These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Proteus - January] Recon ships

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Blobskillz McBlub
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#861 - 2014-12-19 14:44:31 UTC
logic never worked on Rize

the example he gave works maybe one time after that people will be even more risk averse
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#862 - 2014-12-19 14:52:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Boltorano wrote:
You've basically made scout alts mandatory for "solo" complex runners.

Thanks so much. Ugh


This is not true. You can still see probes on scan if you are talking about signature plexes. FW plexes are a different matter.
l0rd carlos
the king asked me to guard the mountain
#863 - 2014-12-19 14:52:42 UTC
The bunny hopping of CS:S?

Youtube Channel about Micro and Small scale PvP with commentary: Fleet Commentary by l0rd carlos
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#864 - 2014-12-19 14:53:12 UTC
Blobskillz McBlub wrote:
logic never worked on Rize

the example he gave works maybe one time after that people will be even more risk averse



Psycology is nto simple.. even the psycology of eve players. Players that react as your view are the ones that likely are already too coward to provide enough content in the game.

So Rise point of view seems to be, invest on the players that already have gut enough to be useful content generators and if the ones that already do not generate much generate even less.. whatever...

He might be wrong.. but he has a line of tought that can be understood.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#865 - 2014-12-19 14:53:22 UTC
Xsaggie wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Xsaggie wrote:
Changes look good, of course the rook and falcon are completely useless as ECM is still very broken. Plus why not give the falcon launchers, the dps out of that thing is totally pointless with Hybrids, plus it needs the cap for its useless ecm mods.Pirate



the guns are there just to ***** on KM. And the falcon is not useless at all. On small scale warfare is one of the most annoying ships a small gang can bring.

It just does nto scale well in larger fights.



I know what your saying, but every other force recon can put out at least some dps, the rapier for example can get around 300 ish, which is pretty much what you want for its role as anti frig, the falcon at a push might get to 150? Doesnt seem balanced at all to me, though with the changes to missiles for the rapier, maybe that is going to be impossible to reach now too. ECM is VERY ineffective compared to other recon modules, neuts - very effective / webs - very effective, ecm with great skills and modules still only hover around 30-40% effective, and that is with racials, multispecs those numbers drop by almost


The fit i made for the rapier should be right at 300dps using RLML. Close to what belli does. So rapier should still be ok.

RLML falcon would make sense, then again, idk if we need something that can permajam and nuke frigs.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#866 - 2014-12-19 14:59:20 UTC
Varrakk wrote:
Pilgrim:

Range and Strength will be too powerful. Would take away what is unique with the Curse.
+1 Mid or Low slot, and the CPU(PG) to make use of it would be a sufficient boost to the Pilgrim.


DScan immunity for Combat Recons, very cool approach!

+1

I've always said that Combat Recons need some kind of special ability. D-scan immunity is many times less powerful than being able to warp cloaked while giving Combat Recons something special

Well done CCP. Side note, ima find a way to rat in null sec with Curses and Rooks now.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#867 - 2014-12-19 15:01:31 UTC
Blobskillz McBlub wrote:
logic never worked on Rize

the example he gave works maybe one time after that people will be even more risk averse


Getting all snarky and butthurt at the guy making a change is a surefire and foolproof way to get him to change his mind!

Well done.
Desert Ice78
Gryphons of the Western Wind
#868 - 2014-12-19 15:04:29 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
  • Dscan immunity is staying.
    • Seems a tad over powered considering certain environments where there is currently no other viable situation intel tool. How about giving said combat recons an ability (small chance) of uncloaking a cloaked ship?

    I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg

    CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused.
    Xsaggie
    Doomheim
    #869 - 2014-12-19 15:07:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Xsaggie
    Stitch Kaneland wrote:
    Xsaggie wrote:
    Kagura Nikon wrote:
    Xsaggie wrote:
    Changes look good, of course the rook and falcon are completely useless as ECM is still very broken. Plus why not give the falcon launchers, the dps out of that thing is totally pointless with Hybrids, plus it needs the cap for its useless ecm mods.Pirate



    the guns are there just to ***** on KM. And the falcon is not useless at all. On small scale warfare is one of the most annoying ships a small gang can bring.

    It just does nto scale well in larger fights.



    I know what your saying, but every other force recon can put out at least some dps, the rapier for example can get around 300 ish, which is pretty much what you want for its role as anti frig, the falcon at a push might get to 150? Doesnt seem balanced at all to me, though with the changes to missiles for the rapier, maybe that is going to be impossible to reach now too. ECM is VERY ineffective compared to other recon modules, neuts - very effective / webs - very effective, ecm with great skills and modules still only hover around 30-40% effective, and that is with racials, multispecs those numbers drop by almost


    The fit i made for the rapier should be right at 300dps using RLML. Close to what belli does. So rapier should still be ok.

    RLML falcon would make sense, then again, idk if we need something that can permajam and nuke frigs.


    Im not saying do a 180 on ecm, im just saying make them more effective than they are currently, because at the moment they are pretty pointless, may as well just load up the rook with a full midslot tank instead haha
    Missiles would make more sense on the falcon too agreed.
    egham
    Entity.
    #870 - 2014-12-19 15:16:42 UTC


    Not a good change.
    DFA200
    Hard vs Soft
    #871 - 2014-12-19 15:18:49 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:

  • Dscan immunity is staying. We understand a lot of the concerns raised, but for most of them you guys are doing a great job making strong counter-arguments and I think it will be very interesting to see how this mechanic plays out on TQ. I want to put together a lengthier post soon with more explanation for this mechanic and why we feel comfortable with it, but you will have to wait a bit longer for that.

    • Seems reasonable to make the arguments for something available before you decide on it, if there is actually a discussion at all.

    I dont see how this will not destroy FW and probably a lot of other things. The main question is how much people will abuse it.
    FT Diomedes
    The Graduates
    #872 - 2014-12-19 15:21:20 UTC  |  Edited by: FT Diomedes
    CCP Rise wrote:
    Quote:

    I can tell you what will happen most likely:
    - Less fights because people are risk averse
    - A 2nd account with a Prober at all times will be must, not an option.


    I think this is a complex debate and I'm sure that none of us understand player behavior completely, but my experience is actually the opposite of what you're saying.

    Yes, people are risk averse, they want to make good decisions when they're taking risks and that often leads being conservative. That's exactly why I like this kind of mechanic. People want to do the fun thing and take more engagements, but when they have enough information to know that they aren't the favorite they shy away from fighting. However, when some information is obscured they become optimistic and take more risks. I've seen players so willing to make decisions that are likely too risky simply because they lack perfect information. Jumping into gate camps where positional information isn't guaranteed, engaging on stations with people docked, fighting in systems with more in local than can be accounted for, etc. These mechanics that obscure information give people the excuses needed to take risks. Take the example given somewhere in this thread of a low sec camp with 2 Vexors and 2 Rooks. Before these changes, the gang considering fighting them never would because they know they can't deal with the Rooks. After, they won't see them and so they will probably engage. That's more fights because people are risk averse.

    The negative side for me is your other bullet point. Because people don't want to take unnecessary risk they will work very hard, sometimes doing something very boring or difficult, just to get at those last pieces of information. And they should. But we would want to avoid mechanics that obligate people to this kind of behavior too heavily without enough positive side to make the mechanic worthwhile.

    I would be more worried with this mechanic that people have to spend a lot of time running probe scans when they really don't want to be than that they are avoiding engagements because of the possibility of Recons. I don't think this will be a problem but we'll have to wait and see.


    Eve already gives you so much information that this is not an issue in K-space. If I see a dashboard scan currently and notice ten hostiles in local and only nine accounted for, I assume the tenth is a Falcon. Now it could be a Rook instead. Whoop-dee-doo... Still a priority to kill or drive off early in the fight. Or I look up the hostile pilots' killboard, which tells me they always roll with Falcons or Rooks.

    The variable comes in inside of W-space, where this will be another uncertainty in an uncertain environment.

    The concern I have is in small scale fights where ECM is disproportionately powerful. It is now much harder to drive away that Falcon or Rook game changer.

    All in all, very glad I have Recon V on all my older characters.

    CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

    Nyjil Lizaru
    Federal Defense Union
    Gallente Federation
    #873 - 2014-12-19 15:22:14 UTC
    The D-scan immunity sounds interesting, and the debate is educational. But I do not like my in-game tools lying to me.

    Nyjil's corollary to Malcanis' Law:   "Any attempt by CCP to smooth the learning curve of EVE Online will be carried out via the addition of extra factors and 'features' such that there is a net increase in complexity."
    rsantos
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #874 - 2014-12-19 15:25:34 UTC
    Jenn aSide wrote:
    Varrakk wrote:
    Pilgrim:

    Range and Strength will be too powerful. Would take away what is unique with the Curse.
    +1 Mid or Low slot, and the CPU(PG) to make use of it would be a sufficient boost to the Pilgrim.


    DScan immunity for Combat Recons, very cool approach!

    +1

    I've always said that Combat Recons need some kind of special ability. D-scan immunity is many times less powerful than being able to warp cloaked while giving Combat Recons something special

    Well done CCP. Side note, ima find a way to rat in null sec with Curses and Rooks now.


    The wrecks you produce still appear on d-scan!
    Daneel Trevize
    Give my 11percent back
    #875 - 2014-12-19 15:29:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Daneel Trevize
    FT Diomedes wrote:
    Eve already gives you so much information that this is not an issue in K-space. If I see a dashboard scan currently and notice ten hostiles in local and only nine accounted for, I assume the tenth is a Falcon. Now it could be a Rook instead. Whoop-dee-doo... Still a priority to kill or drive off early in the fight. Or I look up the hostile pilots' killboard, which tells me they always roll with Falcons or Rooks.

    The variable comes in inside of W-space, where this will be another uncertainty in an uncertain environment.

    The concern I have is in small scale fights where ECM is disproportionately powerful. It is now much harder to drive away that Falcon or Rook game changer.

    All in all, very glad I have Recon V on all my older characters.
    Rooks aren't the problem. Falcons don't tackle people, or apply webs to stop you moving to a better position, and make you take more damage from every weapon system. Tackle recons that have no need to be alert in order to pre-emptively drop a decloak delay are the problem. How would you like to land in tackle range (which is a ******* big sphere) of a huginn + lachesis everywhere you go?
    X Gallentius
    Black Eagle1
    #876 - 2014-12-19 15:29:34 UTC
    My ship just died as he warped into a medium plex to a combat recon.
    Liet Ormand
    Sons of Bacchus
    #877 - 2014-12-19 15:31:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Liet Ormand
    Folks -


    To all those upset with this change, I'd like to point something out that's been referenced elsewhere in this thread by a few, and also in a few other threads/posts here and on reddit/r/eve.

    I will withhold my opinion on the DS immunity until the end of my post, but I my major reason for writing this is to point out that CCPs hands are, in a sense, tied.

    The problem is that the DS scanner - which is a fundamental game mechanic for Eve - is too simple a system. It is an all or nothing workaround to let capsuleers have some way to find things, sorta, in situations where overview isn't showing them anything. I haven't played Eve long enough to know, but it resembles in design something created early on because there wasn't time to build a better system before release, or something that was stuck in as a work around that required little coding.

    Given the way DScan works at the moment, in order to achieve certain gameplay goals it has to be possible for certain ships to be unseen in certain circumstances. DS is all or nothing. Therefore, immunity to DS is the only option available.

    Long term I think everyone who considers the options will agree that the whole mechanic of DS needs to be re-worked to be integrated into the electronic warfare system, and include things like:


    • Variable range

    • Variable signal strength

    • Jammers, cloaks, chaff

    • Beam steering and focusing

    • False readings and interference from the environment



    ...and so on. It'll be fantastic if CCP can work all that into a new mechanic.

    Right now though, choices are limited, and the choice seems to be between a ship class with a lot of effort put into it not working as designed and a subset of the player population having to re-work and re-consider their play style. I know which way I'd go.

    As to my opinion on the immunity to DS change, let me say the only thing I do currently in game is PvE wormholes solo in a Tech 1 ship. This will change things. I was upset at first.

    But thinking about it, it'll actually make my life a bit easier. You see, if it's riskier to PvE wormholes, fewer people will do it. Fewer explorers means fewer targets for gankers, and the ones still exploring will be smarter. That means fewer people hunting in wormholes, even with the change to DS. Which makes things easier for me, since I can cope with not seeing recons on DS.

    ...as long as the reward matches the risk. Last night I scanned through three systems of wormholes, total of maybe 55 signatures, and found one site I could hack, total loot 5m. Seeing the Talocan static gates was kinda cool, but not worth the time I spent...
    Crosi Wesdo
    War and Order
    #878 - 2014-12-19 15:32:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
    Kmelx wrote:
    CCP Rise wrote:
  • Dscan immunity is staying.

    • Asking for player feedback and then ignoring that feedback for the win.

    I seriously wonder why you even bother...


    You all went about this wrong. CCP always looks at the player feedback then ignores it, this is their development model and has been for a long time.

    Recons dont get used at the moment because you have to fit them expensive for them to be good, but they are paper thin which encourages gimp fits where you might as well use a t3 and get a great tank.

    The extra survivability is all they needed to secure a place is gang fights. The d-scan thing is just a tool for the people who already engage in the least risky forms of pvp. Well, one good thing is it might get the station campers off the undcok and into plexes for equally one sided pvp..

    Bad idea.
    Sine Wave
    KarmaFleet
    Goonswarm Federation
    #879 - 2014-12-19 15:35:56 UTC
    Jenn aSide wrote:
    Varrakk wrote:
    Pilgrim:

    Range and Strength will be too powerful. Would take away what is unique with the Curse.
    +1 Mid or Low slot, and the CPU(PG) to make use of it would be a sufficient boost to the Pilgrim.


    DScan immunity for Combat Recons, very cool approach!

    +1

    I've always said that Combat Recons need some kind of special ability. D-scan immunity is many times less powerful than being able to warp cloaked while giving Combat Recons something special

    Well done CCP. Side note, ima find a way to rat in null sec with Curses and Rooks now.




    curse should do it 4 lows for dmange and 6 mids for tank should work fine
    Midnight Hope
    Pator Tech School
    Minmatar Republic
    #880 - 2014-12-19 15:39:55 UTC
    Kagura Nikon wrote:
    People are way overreacting to the scan immunity.

    Any cloakwarper already had that.

    Force recons, STRATIOS, T3, Bombers.


    VERY little change in the metagame. Most people already react to LOCAL and not dscan. Exaclty because other cloak warpers already made unsafe to rely on the d-scan as an warnign system. If you are aligned you can still warp when the combat recon get in gridd before he gets to full stop and is able to lock you. And if you were not aligned you were already going to die to a cloaked recon, Stratios or t3.


    The only place where they might tip things a bit too much is in WH space.



    It's not even close to the same as being cloaked. While cloaked you could not activate certain modules (like repping). Also, the cloak was balanced with the targeting delay, as small as that maybe in the recons.

    Now an uncloaked recon on a safe spot can rep and still be undetectable unless you KNOW he's exactly there and probe him out. Also, an uncloaked recon will be able to warp on his prey uncloaked, land on them and be ready to point said prey with no delay and no warning (even if the other guy has been hitting d-scan like crazy).

    I understand people being exited about an "I always win" recon and all the easy ganks they are going to get with them, but it unbalances the game.