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[Proteus - January] Recon ships

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Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#601 - 2014-12-19 02:44:15 UTC
Dani Maulerant wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
lmbo at all the nerds who refuse to do things in space without perfect intel about everything around them


lol spoken by one with numerous intel channels about what's all around them for 10 jumps in any direction.


I dont have those channels and I think you're a risk averse pussy too

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Bullet Therapist
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#602 - 2014-12-19 02:47:19 UTC
Gotta say I'm pretty happy to see that they're getting t2 resists, though I think I'd rather see a role bonus directed to tank than dscan immunity for combat recons given how quickly they get primaried. Also, it would be nice to see some attention for armor gangs, particularly with the lachesis. The huginn might be able to fit a passable armor tank now, and make use of both of it's ewar bonuses.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#603 - 2014-12-19 02:48:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Serendipity Lost
Dr Jihad Alhariri wrote:
So far, there has been a lot of negative feedback regarding the proposed dscan immunity for the combat recons. Specifically, people are stating it is going to be OP. Some predict it will ruin PvE entirely in C1, C2, and C3 wormholes. Here are my thoughts...

We already have frigates that can warp around cloaked and launch bombs that decimate huge fleets of battleships (and other ships too!). Before they launch their bombs, these frigates cannot be detected on dscan.

We already have combat cruisers that can warp around cloaked with over 100k EHP and deliver a satisfactory 500 DPS within scram range. Before they decloak and attack, they cannot be detected on dscan.

We already have a subset of recon ships, force recons, that can warp around cloaked and cripple enemies with their enhanced EWar capabilities. Before they decloak and attack, they cannot be detected on dscan. These recons will retain their ability to be undetectable on dscan after the upcoming patch with their covert ops cloaks.

Now, the other subset of recon ships, combat recons, is proposed to be given the ability to be undetectable on dscan in the upcoming patch. They still cannot fit a covert ops cloak and warp around cloaked, though. And combat probes will still be able to sniff them out!

So I am not seeing how the proposed dscan immunity will be OP. We already have a plethora of ships in the game that are effectively undetectable on dscan before they launch their attacks, including other recons that have EWar capabilities that are identical or very similar to that of combat recons. Yet wormhole PvE still persists.

Am I missing an important detail regarding combat recons that would make them severely OP when given the proposed ability to be immune from dscan?What?


yeah you are. Here it is. Anything that is cloaked has a delay when the uncloak before they can lock something. So true you can't detect them, but when they uncloak they have to wait 5sec or more before they can start locking you. So when they show up on grid a guy still has a several second window where he has the possibility of escape.

now i'll be landing on grid uncloaked w/ sensor boosters running and insta lock you at range w/ a lachesis. my buddies will land on you w/ proper combat ships and pop you. My insta locking lachesis at range ensures you have zero time to gtfo once i'm on grid.

So currently a guy has a slim chance and after d-scan immunity the guy has zero chance. What guys don't like is zero chance. This change will give them zero chance.

It won't affect null so much, those risk averse pubbies are on orders to dock anytime a neutral enters local. D-scan is irrelelvant in null. They run like rabbits from anything.

FW - plexes will be camped by recons. If the plex gate allows a cruiser in, then a recon can jump the gate and sit uncloaked and sensor boosted on the warp in spot. Not just one guy, it could be a small gang sitting there. Again, the guy trying to plex has no way to detect them in the site and they don't have an uncloaking delay, so if you jump the gate you have zero chance of getting away.

WH - (where I'm from) won't be that different. You still get a chance to see the guy flash on dscan as he enters the system and the wh makes a sound upon entering, so if you're cautious and have a guy on the wh - you'll have warning. If you miss that you're toast. So if you're in a corp and do group things... you're probably not going to notice much. If you're a solo day tripper - then you are toast. If the recons are already in the system in a safe spot - then you're toast.

The flip side is you can run sites in a buffed recon and not be d-scanned in a site. Which is in my opinion totall BS. You jump into a heavily farmed null there will be a zillion wrecks all over the system and a ton of anoms and no ship on d-scan.

So the change really buffs risk averse null bears (the PL guy is all giddy and stuff). You have local to gtfo if a neutral comes into system and you can get lost in the clutter of wrecks and sited in an upgraded system.

It's another handout to null farmers and a kick in the nuts to fw and wh guys (the guys that try to make a living doing small gang pvp)

add to that whatever the new recon doctrines which my gut tells me will be OP and you have in my opinion a pretty crappy chang. Will it end eve? Nah.

Would it be better to give recons a 'no local' super power in lieu of the 'no D-scan' super power? I say hell yeah!!
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#604 - 2014-12-19 02:50:58 UTC
i just realized.. this is the ultimate counter to garmur's. Stealth garmur nerf. FW can be reclaimed from garmur menace.

Already have a fit ready for new rapier. To everyone wanting huginn as t2 belli, the rapier is what you're looking for. Its 50 paper dps less than bellicose, but with 10% damage bonus, you get `150 more volley damage, giving your magazine an extra `3k volley. This is important when frig hunting with RLML, extra damage per magazine is best.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Syzygium
Ventures Bar
#605 - 2014-12-19 02:53:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Syzygium
Grath Telkin wrote:
Syzygium wrote:
or to have a Probing Alt all the time which is simpy annoying and fun-killing..


Stop being so anti social, even jerks like us have managed to find people that like scanning, you dont need an alt, you need a new friend, one who likes to probe.

So what you say it that SoloPvP is bullshit at all and should be ignored or at least forced to dualbox all the time and all other forms of PvP should simply bring MORE PEOPLE (what is the final solution to all problems in EvE, just bring MORE...)? Yeah that sounds great.

Also a great idea to bring someone who "likes to scan". Yeah. We roam 50 jumps and the guy needs 50times to drop Combat Probes to make sure we don't run into a faggotrytrap with our 3 cruisers. That makes so much sense. I think this "friend" will quit EvE on the third day.
Suitonia
Order of the Red Kestrel
#606 - 2014-12-19 03:01:33 UTC
OGBs are fine too, just get a friend who likes sitting in a safespot!

Contributer to Eve is Easy:  https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos

Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o
Dr Jihad Alhariri
Dr Jihad's Brigade of Interstellar Mujahideen
#607 - 2014-12-19 03:03:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Dr Jihad Alhariri
Neckbeard Nolyfe wrote:
Dr Jihad Alhariri wrote:
So far, there has been a lot of negative feedback regarding the proposed dscan immunity for the combat recons. Specifically, people are stating it is going to be OP. Some predict it will ruin PvE entirely in C1, C2, and C3 wormholes. Here are my thoughts...

We already have frigates that can warp around cloaked and launch bombs that decimate huge fleets of battleships (and other ships too!). Before they launch their bombs, these frigates cannot be detected on dscan.

We already have combat cruisers that can warp around cloaked with over 100k EHP and deliver a satisfactory 500 DPS within scram range. Before they decloak and attack, they cannot be detected on dscan.

We already have a subset of recon ships, force recons, that can warp around cloaked and cripple enemies with their enhanced EWar capabilities. Before they decloak and attack, they cannot be detected on dscan. These recons will retain their ability to be undetectable on dscan after the upcoming patch with their covert ops cloaks.

Now, the other subset of recon ships, combat recons, is proposed to be given the ability to be undetectable on dscan in the upcoming patch. They still cannot fit a covert ops cloak and warp around cloaked, though. And combat probes will still be able to sniff them out!

So I am not seeing how the proposed dscan immunity will be OP. We already have a plethora of ships in the game that are effectively undetectable on dscan before they launch their attacks, including other recons that have EWar capabilities that are identical or very similar to that of combat recons. Yet wormhole PvE still persists.

Am I missing an important detail regarding combat recons that would make them severely OP when given the proposed ability to be immune from dscan?What?


You still see those ships on dscan before/when they are cloaking.
You will never see combat recons on dscan post proteus.
Eve is very hard game.


True, but that point is moot if they are turning on their cloaks outside of dscan range. In my experience, wormholes often lie outside of a PvE player's dscan range.

Again, I don't think the sky is falling because of this change.

And yes, Eve is very hard game. I think we can all be big boys and girls and deal with it. Cool
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#608 - 2014-12-19 03:04:01 UTC
Suitonia wrote:
OGBs are fine too, just get a friend who likes sitting in a safespot!



Hi sweety
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#609 - 2014-12-19 03:09:24 UTC
Dani Maulerant wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
lmbo at all the nerds who refuse to do things in space without perfect intel about everything around them


lol spoken by one with numerous intel channels about what's all around them for 10 jumps in any direction.

i like "intel channel" japes because people have it in their heads that they are a nullsec-only feature

anyone can start an intel channel, genius, just enumerate your enemies and report them in the channel, it's not hard

if you're not doing it then you only have yourself to blame for not using the tools the game provides you
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#610 - 2014-12-19 03:11:43 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Dani Maulerant wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
lmbo at all the nerds who refuse to do things in space without perfect intel about everything around them


lol spoken by one with numerous intel channels about what's all around them for 10 jumps in any direction.

i like "intel channel" japes because people have it in their heads that they are a nullsec-only feature

anyone can start an intel channel, genius, just enumerate your enemies and report them in the channel, it's not hard

if you're not doing it then you only have yourself to blame for not using the tools the game provides you


Such as D-scan? Is that one of the tools provided?
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#611 - 2014-12-19 03:13:43 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Dani Maulerant wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
lmbo at all the nerds who refuse to do things in space without perfect intel about everything around them


lol spoken by one with numerous intel channels about what's all around them for 10 jumps in any direction.

i like "intel channel" japes because people have it in their heads that they are a nullsec-only feature

anyone can start an intel channel, genius, just enumerate your enemies and report them in the channel, it's not hard

if you're not doing it then you only have yourself to blame for not using the tools the game provides you


Such as D-scan? Is that one of the tools provided?

sure, and now it isn't perfect

just like how wormholes short circuit intel channels by providing random points of entry into a region

it's all part of the game, chauncey
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#612 - 2014-12-19 03:21:20 UTC
Let's go w/ no local as their super power. How would that suit you chauncy?
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#613 - 2014-12-19 03:29:16 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Let's go w/ no local as their super power. How would that suit you chauncy?

ah yes, we've resorted to "attack the conceived entitlements of nullsec" play i see
Ghaustyl Kathix
Rising Thunder
#614 - 2014-12-19 03:36:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Ghaustyl Kathix
SpaceSaft wrote:
All against are like "but but... I have to be ready to pvp?"
Not so much "I have to be ready to PvP," but "I have to kill this brick-tanked heavy tackle before all of his friends land on me?" I notice most who really like this change are part of some of the more massive and notable alliances (No Holes Barred, Pandemic Legion, Brave Collective).

Lorac Gemini wrote:
Surprised there's more WH tears than FW tears here. Figured FW farmers not being able to see a recon on dscan would make them like this change less.
T2 cruisers aren't allowed in medium complexes and lower, so this change shouldn't affect FW much.

Aralieus wrote:
If a new recon warps in on you then any ship could have cause you weren't watching for the old as time tell tale ~combat probes~ on d-scan and probably deserve that recon in your anom.
Anomalies don't need to be probed down. Signatures do, not anomalies.
KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#615 - 2014-12-19 03:46:33 UTC
RIP FW
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#616 - 2014-12-19 03:58:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Grath Telkin
Syzygium wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Syzygium wrote:
or to have a Probing Alt all the time which is simpy annoying and fun-killing..


Stop being so anti social, even jerks like us have managed to find people that like scanning, you dont need an alt, you need a new friend, one who likes to probe.

So what you say it that SoloPvP is bullshit at all and should be ignored or at least forced to dualbox all the time and all other forms of PvP should simply bring MORE PEOPLE (what is the final solution to all problems in EvE, just bring MORE...)? Yeah that sounds great.

Also a great idea to bring someone who "likes to scan". Yeah. We roam 50 jumps and the guy needs 50times to drop Combat Probes to make sure we don't run into a faggotrytrap with our 3 cruisers. That makes so much sense. I think this "friend" will quit EvE on the third day.


Thats not what I said at all, but good job winding yourself up like a gigantic baby over it.

Solo PVP without a prober or alts right now is already full of traps and ambushes, for the average solo pvp guy, literally nothing will change, his day seeing a lachesis drop on grid will literally be no different than when an arazu decloaks near him.

He will have literally the exact same amount of time to react, because in situation A, you can't see the pilgrim until he commits, and decloaks, he's got a 4-5 second delay in his actions, the Lachesis, you can't see until he commits, and he'll have about 4-5 seconds of warp deceleration PLUS targeting time that delay his actions.


So lets not drag the solo PVP guy on this, post change his day isn't any worse than it was before. If anything he's probably rolling around in a RLML Rapier owning Garmurs.

Second, if you were just running 3 cruisers with no alts theres a pretty good chance you were going to run into a 'faggotytrap'. Second if you're really roaming in 3 guys and you can see 10 dudes in local but dont show ships on scan your spidey sense should already be going off, and if not, one of your traps is probably waiting to kill you.

Sorry, all the crap you're getting spun up about is something entirely made up in your own head

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#617 - 2014-12-19 04:00:29 UTC
Ghaustyl Kathix wrote:
[Not so much "I have to be ready to PvP," but "I have to kill this brick-tanked heavy tackle before all of his friends land on me?"


Theres no such thing as a brick tanked recon. They literally dont exist, they're all thin as hell.



Ghaustyl Kathix wrote:
I notice most who really like this change are part of some of the more massive and notable alliances (No Holes Barred, Pandemic Legion, Brave Collective).


You just grouped two of the smaller alliances in eve with one of the largest.

Get
Out.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Aralieus
Shadowbane Syndicate
#618 - 2014-12-19 04:09:58 UTC
I truly hope CCP can sift thru all the whines, straw men and fear mongering and stand fast on a seemingly unique and fantastic approach to balancing recons with the rest of the ships in Eve. Once again great changes Rise and don't put to much stock into those who have painfully biased and obvious oopinions. They fear change and always will no matter which way you march so once again remain brave and see this through for these changes while absolutely a game shaker completely justified and sorely needed. Thank you Rise, keep up the great work!

Oderint Dum Metuant
Gallowmere Rorschach
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#619 - 2014-12-19 04:15:56 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:

Theres no such thing as a brick tanked recon. They literally dont exist, they're all thin as hell.

Well, to be fair, they are about to get a tad more beefy. I still wouldn't call any of them brick tanked, by any stretch of the imagination, unless you're trying to kill one with a frigate.
Komi Toran
Perkone
Caldari State
#620 - 2014-12-19 04:25:33 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
yeah you are. Here it is. Anything that is cloaked has a delay when the uncloak before they can lock something.

When, exactly, did they nerf stealth bombers?