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[Proteus - January] Recon ships

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Rahmiro
Dark Venture Corporation
Kitchen Sinkhole
#261 - 2014-12-18 17:22:21 UTC
In the spirit of change, I'm going yes on the dscan changes for combat recons. Combat probes for EVERYONE!

Having just fit a pilgrim for close range neuting power, td's and a little tank, I no like more range.


I never seen these people in my life. I don't recognize them Your Honor
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#262 - 2014-12-18 17:23:00 UTC
Lim Hiaret wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Zen Guerrilla wrote:
Interesting changes and ideas.

While i like the idea of removing ships from dscan, this is a huge thing in FW. As in, you might have just killed (solo) medium plex pvp.


that's still technically dead, since links and covops ships and even normal cloaks already exist. this just makes it easier to be terrible, which yeah is a bad thing. I just think it's worth whining about the other stuff while we're at it.


You can't cloak inside a FW plex, right?


yes you can. get any ship, put a cloak on it, and get another ship and don't put a cloak on it. put them both inside a fw plex. congrats - you can now kill me.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#263 - 2014-12-18 17:23:11 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:

The word "solo" does have a certain meaning to it. Roll

In Eve: Online? Not really. Hell, people using gang bonuses on their alt still consider themselves to be "solo."

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#264 - 2014-12-18 17:23:48 UTC
There is a couple things here I am concerned about:

  • ECM still offers no counter play. Effectively rendering a player unable to do anything for at least 20 seconds plus the time it takes them to relock anything. 99.99% fo all combat in this game involves locking a target. ECM drones turn any ship into a diet Blackbird. ECM needs to be revamped from the ground up and should not involve removing a players ability to play the game.
  • Celestis being incredibly powerful from 100+km is silly.
  • If it turns out combat recons not being on the directional scanner is an option, perhaps showing the ships as the T1 version of the ship instead would be a good compromise. i.e. the directional scanner shows an Arbitrator on scan when in fact it is really a Curse.
Semi-related, but what are the odds of a new high slot module that can not be fit if there is any type of cyno fit as well, only allowed for recons and means they do not appear in local? Perhaps I am dreaming a bit too hard here.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#265 - 2014-12-18 17:24:40 UTC
Querns wrote:
RTSAvalanche wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:


Those goals lead us to the following major changes:

  • Combat Recons will now be permanently undetectable by directional scanners





    • Well that's just complete and utter bullsh!t...

    As if Solo pvp wasn't hard enough, we can not even rely on our D-Scan now?? somthing that we have relied on for the past 10 years.. You are basicaly breaking around some core mechanics here.
    Faction Warefare has been completely broken since Incarna, now you are telling me that recons with web, neut, damp & ECM bonuses will be able to hide in plain site in FW plexes and there is no conventional way to find them.

    Even if combats work to find them, we would have to do that for every plex...

    I smelt somthing bad in the air when the mobile scan inhib came into game, didn't realise things were going to be this bad.


    POWER CREEP is getting excessive..

    Do they not have combat probes where you live?


    One more step to making the nestor a thing.

    There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

    Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
    Aliventi
    Rattini Tribe
    Minmatar Fleet Alliance
    #266 - 2014-12-18 17:25:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Aliventi
    I really do like some of the things you did here. The cap additions and tank additions are spot on. Those are two areas recons really suffered. Props on recognizing and fixing those issues.

    I was hoping three additional things would happen:
    1. Each race's ships would be essentially the same ship. i.e. the pilgrim has the same bonuses as the curse, falcon as rook, arazu as lachesis, and rapier as huginn.
    2. All of them would receive Covert Cloaks.
    3. One of each race would be a shield tank and the other would be armor tanked.

    The reason for one to be armor tankable and the other to be shield tankable would be because if you want to fly a shield fleet you should be able to bring all 4 recons along. Same for an armor fleet. part of the reason that T3s are used so often in armor fleets to provide the recon services is that they tank WAY more.
    The reason for the covert cloak would be for Black Ops. You could bring either a shield version or the armor version along. In BlOps fleets there are pros and cons to both.
    The reason for them to be essentially the same ship would be so that in either an armor or a shield fleet if you bring the one that is supposed to tank the same you would always have the same level of capability present. If you were to go with this I think that armor and shield tank fleets win, BlOps wins, and you get your fancy "doesn't appear on D-scan" with the covert ops cloak.

    Edit: Also was kinda hoping that they would lose their DPS bonuses and be given useful bonuses like EAFs did.
    Querns
    Science and Trade Institute
    Caldari State
    #267 - 2014-12-18 17:28:36 UTC
    MeBiatch wrote:
    One more step to making the nestor a thing.

    If it had a CPU reduction for probe launchers, anyways.

    Really wish they had just given the Nestor the covert jump drive it so desperately needs.

    This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
    l0rd carlos
    the king asked me to guard the mountain
    #268 - 2014-12-18 17:28:37 UTC
    Yeah, I don't like this.
    For roaming gangs there is almost no reason to take combat recons. It's still not really worth to put guns on them. Fit it for max Tank / Speed, gang will bring DPS.

    The dscan change will be only usable for niche cases and traps / ganks.

    Suitonia has some great ideas. He put in words what I was thinking.

    Youtube Channel about Micro and Small scale PvP with commentary: Fleet Commentary by l0rd carlos
    Jazz Caden
    Republic University
    Minmatar Republic
    #269 - 2014-12-18 17:29:21 UTC
    While this seems kool from a fleet perspective, it is going to be really really frustrating for solo and small gang pilots. This is especially true for some newer FW pilots.

    When they go into a FW plex and immediately get tackled and killed it will be very disappointing and you really wont be able to do anything about it.

    And if your response is: "just combat probe before you go into the plex" then you need to go jump off of a high object b/c that is completely ridiculous.

    The great thing about FW space is being able to fly around quickly and engage multiple people in a small space of time. This DSCAN change will change that heavily, and not in a good way IMHO.
    BKuCKy
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #270 - 2014-12-18 17:30:00 UTC
    Ahahah
    yep less pve-ers! More RMT!!!! PLEX for real money!!! LolLolLolLolLol
    biz Antollare
    The Graduates
    The Initiative.
    #271 - 2014-12-18 17:30:08 UTC  |  Edited by: biz Antollare
    This isn't CCP being "creative". Its just them doing what they always do. Take existing things in the game and just tweaking, buffing, or nerfing them in different ways. Lazy development.

    Make new ships = awesome
    Make new systems = great
    Make new modules = great
    Fixing problems with ships = great
    Making ships dscan immune on their own = dumb, broken, overpowered.

    CCP be more creative please and read feedback.
    Lug Muad'Dib
    Funk'in Hole
    #272 - 2014-12-18 17:30:52 UTC
    Dscan immunity is dumb idea, lol at dev.
    ihavenotoneclue
    Sebiestor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #273 - 2014-12-18 17:31:43 UTC  |  Edited by: ihavenotoneclue
    Really a fan of the D-scan changes, and the pilgrim has needed the range boost forever.

    Overall I'm definitely a fan.

    I like that you're using new and interesting changes to alter mechanics instead of the old tired racial bonuses which often don't fit the role of the ship.
    biz Antollare
    The Graduates
    The Initiative.
    #274 - 2014-12-18 17:33:55 UTC
    ihavenotoneclue wrote:
    Really a fan of the D-scan changes, and the pilgrim has needed the range boost forever.

    Overall I'm definitely a fan.


    Appropriate character name.
    Ripard Teg
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #275 - 2014-12-18 17:34:36 UTC
    Ripard Teg wrote:
    I'm torn on the invisible-to-dscan thing. It feels OP, particularly in w-space. It also makes me nervous because you guys don't have a good strategy around "What intelligence tools should there be in EVE?" So you probably shouldn't be screwing around with the intel tools we do have until you know what the strategy is going to be.


    Given a few more minutes to think about invisible-to-dscan, I dislike it even more. It just doesn't seem to add any interesting game-play outside of w-space. And in w-space, as I mentioned, I think it's OP.

    Entertaining alternative: combat recon pilots don't appear in Local for 10-12 seconds. As it is, most ratters (and all bots) just watch Local: "14 blues... and oh look, a neut just showed up. Time to dock up!" Therefore, d-scan immunity isn't gonna do a thing for combat recons... whereas giving them 10-12 seconds of Local immunity will add some interesting game-play options without being OP. Ratters that watch d-scan will still be OK, while those that rely on Local...

    This would give you guys the opportunity to dip a toe into the delayed Local debate and try it out without committing yourselves.

    aka Jester, who apparently was once Deemed Worthy To Wield The Banhammer to good effect.
    Jezza McWaffle
    Lazerhawks
    L A Z E R H A W K S
    #276 - 2014-12-18 17:35:04 UTC
    Massive fan of these changes although the Pilgrim still needs some buffing, same goes for the Rook as well me thinks.

    Wormholes worst badass | Checkout my Wormhole blog
    Tiberian Deci
    Garoun Investment Bank
    Gallente Federation
    #277 - 2014-12-18 17:35:41 UTC
    ale rico wrote:
  • Give Combat Recons something to make them stand out as a unique and interesting set of ships


  • Combat Recons will now be permanently undetectable by directional scanners


    • Seems to me a stronger tank or significant damage bonuses would have had the desired effect without completely changing the game with recons. I hope you guys thought about all implications this will bring.



    Do you have some implications in mind or are you just fearmongering in hope that they remove that proposed change so you don't have to learn to deal with it?

    I welcome these changes. I bought a Rook on accident once and it's been gathering dust while waiting for an opportunity to shine.
    ihavenotoneclue
    Sebiestor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #278 - 2014-12-18 17:36:41 UTC
    biz Antollare wrote:
    ihavenotoneclue wrote:
    Really a fan of the D-scan changes, and the pilgrim has needed the range boost forever.

    Overall I'm definitely a fan.


    Appropriate character name.


    When logical discourse isn't an option, feel free to use anecdote.
    Pom Agrant
    Sebiestor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #279 - 2014-12-18 17:36:50 UTC
    The d-scan immunity is a very very bad idea. WHs and cloaky camping will be completely broken. Seriously, don't break eve with this kind of stupid change. I have been a recon pilot for years and would luv to see them suck less, but this is ridonkulous.
    biz Antollare
    The Graduates
    The Initiative.
    #280 - 2014-12-18 17:38:47 UTC  |  Edited by: biz Antollare
    Next they will change another ship and make it completely immune to combat probes right out of the box and call it creative.