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An old idea: The Escort Carrier
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Alric Rosenthal
Black Fox Marauders
Pen Is Out
#21 - 2014-12-05 17:18:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Alric Rosenthal
@ Reaver Glitterstim

Thank you for your reply Reaver. +1 Let us drop the "Carrier" off of "Escort Carrier" for now as this may be providing some misconceptions to the idea behind the platform. Let us just call the platform an "Escort" for now. This new platform does not need to be capital or mini-capital sized. It could fall into a category of size and mass just under a battleship or it could be similar in size to an Orca. It should have a smaller compliment of slots than a carrier. For balance purposes it should have no more than three high slots. It should not be able to fit a triage module or a bastion module as this would break it for good or for ill. I have already explained why this is so.

The new platform should have the power to fit up to three large RR modules. Perhaps it can get a bonus to RR amount or RR cycle time but it should not get a bonus to range imho. If you gave it bonused RR range it would step on the logistic role of the four T2 cruisers in the class of ships. If it does have bonused RR outside of drone use then that RR should be burst, short range, and capacitor hungry. This would have to be balanced against the ability to feed such a ship capacitor which I think would unbalance it.

It should have defenses similar to a battleship. We are talking about a high-sec capable ship and thus if you make the tank too stalwart you would unbalance it. It should be slightly more nimble or slightly less nimble than a battleship depending on which way we go with its size. Skill requirements are still up for debate.

It should not be able to field fighters or bombers as has been stated. I think the use of drone control units may unbalance it if you allow it bandwidth to field a full complement of heavy drones so we must either limit it to a partial heavy drone deployed compliment or we must remove its ability to use drone control units and thus it could only field ten drones at maximum level.

It should not be able to use capital repair or logistic modules but you should be able to refit off of it like a Nestor. It could/should be able to haul a single fit frigate. It should not be able to use a jump drive. I think the T2 logistic cruisers are fine as is. They have their counters and they have their strengths.

“War is cruelty. There's no use trying to reform it. The crueler it is, the sooner it will be over.” - William Tecumseh Sherman
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2014-12-05 17:35:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
I have thought that it would be neat to have mini-capitals in the game to better allow the younger or poorer pilots to get their feet wet in the capital department, and perhaps also to allow smaller groups who don't hold sovereignty to bring something to bear against the larger nullsec alliances, so that they would stand a fighting chance.

Another thing I'd like to see is a smaller type of battleship, more mobile and with weaker fitting options, but pretty durable while also able to do some of the battleship roles. I think maybe most of the battleship roles are due for a buff--now that battleships are indeed as slow as they are supposed to be, they are falling behind because they don't stand out much in power or toughness over battlecruisers. Once that was fixed, having smaller variants for improved mobility could be useful. While they would have much less weapon power, they could still have a full drone bay, perform logistics or electronic warfare, or act as heavily-tanked tacklers. The full-sized battleships would be excellent as siege and gate camp vessels, able to pour out heavy damage while taking heavy fire, difficult to alpha off the field and with high resists would be difficult to burn down if they are receiving logi support.

I'd also like to see a ship smaller than cruisers (an escort cruiser--I had this name before I saw this post) which would be almost as fast as a frigate but with most other attributes more like a cruiser. These could be valuable as durable forward scouts and tacklers that may last a lot longer in a fight than a frigate would. They might also be useful in a gang of small ships to shoot destroyers, as their much higher HP would give them an edge in combat against destroyers.

Actually in my alternate EVE idea, I have 9 ship classes:
1.) fighters (not the drones) - small frigates useful only as scouts or tacklers, but extremely elusive
2.) corvettes - basic frigates: fast and flimsy
3.) destroyers - reasonably fast, agile, but heavy hitting and fast-tracking

4.) escort cruisers - pretty fast but also tough, low damage, useful for scouting or as a heavy tackler
5.) heavy cruisers - medium ship with wide variety of flexibility and moderate power/speed
6.) battlecruisers - slowish but high durability as well as high damage output

7.) skirmish battleships - not too slow, pretty tough, lots of powergrid, useful for field ops and as a mobile heavy ship
8.) combat battleships - well-rounded and durable with lots of fitting options, but slow
9.) siege battleships - very slow but very tough, with the highest DPS output, useful for sieges

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Alric Rosenthal
Black Fox Marauders
Pen Is Out
#23 - 2014-12-05 18:06:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Alric Rosenthal
@ Reaver Glitterstim

We are a bit off topic but I will reply. A smaller type of battleship with more mobility and with weaker fitting options is a battlecruiser. I admit that battleships may need a bit of a buff but there are some weapon systems (missiles and medium auto-cannons) that need a buff and those attempts at re-balancing may lessen the gap between the current meta doctrine of the cruiser, AHAC, and SHAC and t3 fleets and the old workhorse that was the battleship. They are currently too slow in warp. Their larger signature radius and ponderous gait is not balanced by their EHP or ability to do damage. Same with the battlecruisers.

That being said you can not tank a battlecruiser like you can tank a battleship and still get relatively the same firepower. A T2 battlecruiser can do this but then again we don't have solid t2 combat battleships to compare them with outside of the marauder and the black-ops and I would hardly call those ships good t2 fleet hulls. A group could prove me wrong. I would love to see a fleet of marauders in action.

The T3 destroyer will be a good addition and I believe you will find that with the correct fitting you will be able to fill that gab between a cruiser and a frigate that you are seeking.


Let's get back on topic. Brainstorm.

“War is cruelty. There's no use trying to reform it. The crueler it is, the sooner it will be over.” - William Tecumseh Sherman
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2014-12-05 18:19:23 UTC
Alric Rosenthal wrote:
@ Reaver Glitterstim

We are a bit off topic but I will reply. A smaller type of battleship with more mobility and with weaker fitting options is a battlecruiser.

Big difference between a battlecruiser and what I was suggesting: battlecruiser has most stats similar to a cruiser (powergrid, mobility, sig radius) while only its damage is close to a battleship -- what I was suggesting would have fewer slots than a battlecruiser (esp. lacking high slots) with hit points, mobility, sig radius, and powergrid only a little smaller than a battleship but with much weaker damage output.



I'd like to see mini-capitals designed either/both for electronic warfare or for supercapital tackling. They would be a lot tougher than heavy interdictors but much slower to move around--though they could be tech 1. On top of tackling supercapitals, they might be able to jam/disrupt capital ships with special improvements to their EWAR to allow them to be effective against capitals, and to even function on supercapitals or sieged capitals.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Alric Rosenthal
Black Fox Marauders
Pen Is Out
#25 - 2014-12-05 18:33:22 UTC
@ Reaver Glitterstim

All interesting ideas. Perhaps another thread should be opened to recieve input.


Quote:
The currency discussion revolves around the use of a platform that can field bonused Electronic Warfare Drones, Combat Utility Drones, & Logistics Drones in racial flavor and possibly limited RR. It has been stated by me that the platform should not get bonused drone damage or tracking though a bonus to drone EHP, range, or speed may be warranted in addition to additional drones controlled per level or/and the ability to fit drone control units.

The platform should have a very low number of highslots, no more than three I would think. It was stated by Joe Risalo and noted now by myself that even without drone damage bonuses a ship that could field twelve or thirteen heavy drones would be a considerably powerful platform in high security space. It may be that the platform needs a limiter in bandwidth to limit its use as a heavy drone damage platform and thus it would promote mixed deployment of heavy and medium drones in a brawl with light drones for on grid interception. I will try to fiddle with EFT and in game tonight if I have some time. Perhaps I can come up with some slot layouts. Keep talking about it. Thanks.

Amarr:
Tracking Disruption - Acolyte TD-300, Infiltrator TD-600, Praetor TD-900
Energy Neutralization - Acolyte EV-300, Infiltrator EV-600, Praetor EV-900
Cross Over - Armor Repair - Light Armor Maintenance Bot, Medium Armor Maintenance Bot, Heavy Armor Maintenance Bot

Caldari:
ECM - Hornet EC-300, Vespa EC-600, Wasp EC-900
Shield Repair - Light Shield Maintenance Bot, Medium Shield Maintenance Bot, Heavy Shield Maintenance Bot
Cross Over - Target Painting - Warrior TP-300, Valkyrie TP-600, Berserker TP-900 or Tracking Disruption - Acolyte TD-300, Infiltrator TD-600, Praetor TD-900

Gallente:
Sensor Dampening - Hobgoblin SD-300, Hammerhead SD-600, Ogre SD-900
Armor Repair - Light Armor Maintenance Bot, Medium Armor Maintenance Bot, Heavy Armor Maintenance Bot
Cross Over - Tracking Disruption - Acolyte TD-300, Infiltrator TD-600, Praetor TD-900 or Target Painting - Warrior TP-300, Valkyrie TP-600, Berserker TP-900

Minmatar:
Target Painting - Warrior TP-300, Valkyrie TP-600, Berserker TP-900
Stasis Webification - Warrior SW-300, Valkyrie SW-600, Berserker SW-900
Cross Over - Shield Repair - Light Shield Maintenance Bot, Medium Shield Maintenance Bot, Heavy Shield Maintenance Bot


“War is cruelty. There's no use trying to reform it. The crueler it is, the sooner it will be over.” - William Tecumseh Sherman
Kimsemus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2014-12-07 04:35:58 UTC
Doesn't seem like a bad idea, to be honest.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#27 - 2014-12-07 09:45:11 UTC
It could also be argued that the current line of carriers, done up as the nano hyperspat roaming configs people have been commenting on and using of late are escort carriers when fit that way.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Kesthely
Mestana
#28 - 2014-12-07 12:21:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Kesthely
An escort carrier as a concept for me is something like this:

Battlecruiser Sized
Effective hp and resist as attack battlecruiser
Speed and agility as combat battlecruiser

Ship layout
6 High 4 med 6 low (armor)
6 High 6 med 4 low (shield)

Drone Bay:
750 M3
100 Mbit

Ship bonus
Can fit one additional drone control unit per level
10% bonus to drone hit points per level

Role bonus:
Can use Warefare links
Can fit Drone control units
+500% of the effectiveness of Logistical Drones
99.8% reduction in the powergrid of Drone control unit.

What would this allow

Drone control units would be 150 powergrid, so its a lot more manageable to get the power grid balancing right. with the limited Mbit, you could send a flight of 10 medium drones (damage/ewar or Logistic) and keep the dps vallue in line with other bc typed ships. The rather low hp for it size (rougly 50 - 60k with T2 fit) with an increased signature and lower speed compared to the T2 logistics ships will make them not compete with them, while still beeing able to fullfill a rather unique support role with its huge selection of drones. Its drones would rep roughly at 133% more efficiency as a Heavy logistic drone and with the ability to field 10 of those youd still be able to project a good amount of remote repping, in shield hull and armor.

Fitting it out with remote reppers yields a slightly lower remote repping power then with control units, unless you completly gimp its tank and are capable of fitting large remote reppers. But even then youd suffer from the really sort range of it.

T2 variants could give bonuses to warfare links in the range of 1 single bonus (eg armor warfare) at strategic cruisers strength (+2% per level), give bonuses to its racial drone damage, or add additional tracking, mwd or orbit speed to its drones. And youd have a ship that lets you more gradually go into a carrier like ship, where you can get accustomed on how to use the ship in a combat setting, and use the logistic ships as a training platform to do its logistical role
Dustpuppy
New Eden Ferengi
#29 - 2014-12-08 11:15:46 UTC
Came here to see if we finally get a ship filled with space hookers (escort service), left disappointed.

Lol
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2014-12-08 11:26:14 UTC
Dustpuppy wrote:
Came here to see if we finally get a ship filled with space hookers (escort service), left disappointed.

Lol


Chuck a load of exotic dancers in your hold. Job done...
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2014-12-10 09:38:38 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
It could also be argued that the current line of carriers, done up as the nano hyperspat roaming configs people have been commenting on and using of late are escort carriers when fit that way.

No those are strategic capitals. They have the ability to switch between logi and drone fit on the fly, and they have dreadnought EHP despite having mobility closer to a battleship.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#32 - 2014-12-10 09:52:40 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
It could also be argued that the current line of carriers, done up as the nano hyperspat roaming configs people have been commenting on and using of late are escort carriers when fit that way.

No those are strategic capitals. They have the ability to switch between logi and drone fit on the fly, and they have dreadnought EHP despite having mobility closer to a battleship.

Which is very similar to the concept of an escort carrier, other than the relatively high cost compared to the ships they are escorting.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2014-12-10 09:54:38 UTC
I was making the point that they have incredibly high EHP, which makes them unlike the proposed escort carriers. If they have high mobility like the proposed escort carriers, then that's more of a balance issue and less of a fulfilling of the proposal.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Alric Rosenthal
Black Fox Marauders
Pen Is Out
#34 - 2014-12-10 21:41:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Alric Rosenthal
@ Dustpuppy & Corraidhin Farsaidh

No doubt. We need more of those.

@ Reaver Glitterstim & James Baboli

Dreadnoughts have more raw hit-points than a carrier. Even a carrier with speed and agility mods on is much slower and less agile than a battleship. The proposed escort carrier would be faster, more agile, and have a lower signature radius than the capitals currently in the game.

@ Kesthely

A great start. Let us change some stuff on that. Start with a review of exactly what different drones do so we don't go crazy.

Quote:
Drone Tracking Range
Acolyte TD-300 -5% -5%
Infiltrator TD-600 -12% -12%
Praetor TD-900 -25% -25%

Drone Jam strength
Hornet EC-300 1
Vespa EC-600 1.5
Wasp EC-900 2

Drone Targeting range Scan resolution
Hobgoblin SD-300 -8% -8%
Hammerhead SD-600 -12% -12%
Ogre SD-900 -25% -25%

Drone Signature radius
Warrior TP-300 +4%
Valkyrie TP-600 +8%
Berserker TP-900 +20%

Drone Capacitor neutralized
Acolyte EV-300 5 GJ
Infiltrator EV-600 10 GJ
Praetor EV-900 25 GJ

Drone Speed
Warrior SW-300 -5%
Valkyrie SW-600 -10%
Berserker SW-900 -20%

Drone Shield repair
Light Shield Maintenance Bot I 12 HP
Medium Shield Maintenance Bot I 24 HP
Heavy Shield Maintenance Bot I 60 HP
T2 are 20% more effective.

Drone Armor repair
Light Armor Maintenance Bot I 12 HP
Medium Armor Maintenance Bot I 24 HP
Heavy Armor Maintenance Bot I 60 HP
T2 are 20% more effective.

Drone Capacitor neutralized
Acolyte EV-300 5 GJ
Infiltrator EV-600 10 GJ
Praetor EV-900 25 GJ

Drone Speed
Warrior SW-300 -5%
Valkyrie SW-600 -10%
Berserker SW-900 -20%


Cataclysm
3 High 4 med 6 low or 3/3/7 for some slot seperation from the gallente escort carrier.
Size, Signature Radius, Velocity, and hit-points of an combat battlecruiser.

Amarr Escort Carrier bonuses (per skill level):
10% bonus to Drone hit-points.
5% bonus to Drone micro-warp drive speed.
20% bonus to effectiveness of TD-300, 600, 900.
60% bonus to effectiveness of EV-300, 600, 900.
Can deploy 1 additional drone.
Can fit one additional drone control unit.

Role Bonus:
400% bonus to Armor Maintenance Bot effectiveness.
99.8% reduction in the powergrid of Drone control unit.

Drone Bay:
500 M3
130 Mbit
Drone Control Range 60km.

So let us go over all this and the reasoning behind everything. Why the low number of high slots? A ship the size of a battlecruiser would not have such a huge drone bay. Something has to be sacrificed. The high slots are what we are going to chuck out. It also has no turret or launcher slots. This means that it could fit all high slot modules that do not require turret or launcher hard points. I would think most people would fit the three drone control units. Being able to deploy any more than 13 drones would be over-powered. It may be over-powered as is.

The low drone band-width means that with max skills it could field 13 medium drones but that it could only field 5 heavy or sentry drones. Since it does not have either a drone damage modifier or tracking bonus this means that it would do less damage than the other battleship or heavy assault drone boats that are already in the game.

With T2 medium armor maintenance bots it could repair 1872 armor per cycle (5 seconds) once the drones arrived to the target or 936 armor per cycle with T2 light armor maintenance bots per cycle. It can only field five heavy drones so even though the heavy drones repair more there are less of them meaning a heavy drone flight would repair slightly less than the medium drone flight and get to target much slower while leaving much less room in the ship's drone bay. Heavy drones would have more hit-points than the medium drones. You cannot overheat drones for anyone who does not know this.

On to the other bonuses! At level one each TD-300, 600, and 900 would tracking disrupt for 6%, 14.4%, and 30%. At max level this would increase to 10%, 24%, and 50% for both tracking speed and optimal range. Remember the ship would only be able to field five heavy drones. Super effective and yet your drones can be targeted by the enemy fleet and/or their drones and destroyed. Stacking penalties apply. You can't overheat drones.

On to the energy neutralization drones. A T2 small energy neutralization device can empty 54 GJ per cycle. With these bonuses these EV-300, 600, 900 neutralizes 8, 16, 40 and per cycle. A max level these drones will neutralize 20, 40, and 100 per cycle (6 seconds) meaning a full flight of EV-300s would neut. 260 per cycle once they got to target which is equal to 4.8 T2 energy neuts. A full flight of EV-600s would neut. out 520 per cycle once they got to target. Heavy drones would neut out slightly less than the medium drones while having more hit-points and being far slower to get to target. No stacking penalty here.

Here is where it gets interesting! A medium T2 neut can remove 180 GJ per cycle but each cycle is 12 seconds. This means that a full flight of EV-600s would do the same work as 5.7 T2 medium neuts or 3.4 T2 heavy neuts over the same amount of time and cost this ship no capacitor.

“War is cruelty. There's no use trying to reform it. The crueler it is, the sooner it will be over.” - William Tecumseh Sherman
Alric Rosenthal
Black Fox Marauders
Pen Is Out
#35 - 2014-12-11 01:50:50 UTC
Let us see how it stacks up against those best in role:

The Curse is commonly fit with three medium neuts. At recon level 5 a Curse gets a 100% bonus to neuting amount. Meaning that it can neut out 540 GJ in the same amount of time that this escort carrier's drones neut out 520 GJ. The Curse will be able to do this from almost 38 km away.

The Guardian is commonly fit with four Large Remote Armor Repair Systems. It gets bonus to range of energy transfer and remote armor repair. Let us just use the 5 second cycle time of the meta 4 LRAR because it is more commonly used over the T2 which has a cycle time of 4.5 seconds. This means that a single Guardian is going to repair 1536 every 5 seconds up to a little more than 70 km.

Well that is not a fair trade off. This ship repairs more than a Guardian up to its drone control range and for no capacitor. At the same time its a bigger ship. It has a bigger signature radius and does not have the T2 resists of a Guardian of a Curse which means that it would go down much faster than a Guardian. I would personally take a pair of Guardians over a pair of Cataclysms if I was just looking for logistics. Of course the escort carrier can adapt. It can fill multiple roles.

Feed back. Would you field this ship in a fleet? Do you think it is overpowered? Why? Do you think it is underpowered? Why?


“War is cruelty. There's no use trying to reform it. The crueler it is, the sooner it will be over.” - William Tecumseh Sherman
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2014-12-11 02:06:21 UTC
Alric Rosenthal wrote:
Well that is not a fair trade off. This ship repairs more than a Guardian up to its drone control range and for no capacitor. At the same time its a bigger ship. It has a bigger signature radius and does not have the T2 resists of a Guardian of a Curse which means that it would go down much faster than a Guardian.

It's a bigger ship, that's why its effects are stronger and it has more hit points. It would also be slower-moving and have a higher mineral cost--although it might end up cheaper than a curse or guardian on account of its being tech 1.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Kesthely
Mestana
#37 - 2014-12-11 23:11:01 UTC
Theres several things i like, and do not like about your latest proposal:

First of all your giving one skill 6 bonus attributes to a ship in the subcapital that would be a unique, and by definition to powerfull for a T1 ship.

While i like the idea of haveing bonused ewar drones, unfortunatly ewar drones are currently not in an equally strong place as the ewar modules themselves. ECM drones are increadibly powerfull and often used, while all the others have nearly no use in the pvp or pve landscape. In any case haveing 10 or 13 ewar drones out is quite devastating.

One of the reasons that i suggested 6 highslots, and only the 1 drone control unit / level bonus, is so you have to make a choice. Do i want to fill my highslots up with drone control units, or something else. Haveing the additional drone per level, is by definition more powerfull

The first thing i actually really disagree on is the combination of drones / level AND Drone control units per level. even if you limit the highslots like you did, this will make the balancing of the ship extremely difficult. If you lower the bandwith, you could field a full flight of light drones still and be a terror to frigates.

The bandwith issue:
We currently have a strong selection of droneships, that since recent patches and tweaks have been going into different usages of drones. However for this type of escort carrier ship, i don't believe going over 100 mbit is sensible.

Basicly the more bandwith the more versatile a ship becomes. A ship with a bandwith of 125 or more, can field 5 sentry drones. Wich allows a lot more usage in certain cenarios.

The escort carrier basicly is also the direct opposite of the gila or ratlesnake even. Where the gila and rattlesnake put out a few really powerfull drones, the escort carrier puts out swarms of weaker drones. In fleet progression you can easily predict what would happen thus. The bigger the fleets become, the less use the escort carier would get, due to the fact that it soak up the assigned drone space. Id rather have 25 rattlesnakes each set 2 sentries assisted on my arazu, then 5 escort carriers assist there flight of medium drones to the same arazu.

If you would allow above 100 mbit on the escort carrier / allow more then 10 drones, the ship would start behaving unfavorably in situations. you could bring a flight of sentries, and still have multiple medium sized flight of drones present to keep the utility, if the fleet would grow youd deploy assisted sentries, or take on a different role of ewar or logi

That same utility makes me shiver when i start considering bonuses for E-war drones. If you take 2 flights of specialized ewar drones eg the ecm ones and fill the rest with normal combat drones, you could outperform some, if not alot of the specialized ewar cruisers / frigates.

Neutralizing drones. I don't think you realize how powerfull a flight of neutralizing drones is. I use them as an assist on my armageddons and archon. and a flight of 5 heavy neutralizing drones keeps a capped out ship, completly capped out. allowing a flight of bonused Especially 300% bonused would mean haveing the same effect as 40!!! neutralizing drones. They would immediatly drain all cap of a frigate, and destroyer, and cap out a cruiser in 2-4 cycles depending the cruiser, and even make a serious dent in battlecruiser, battleship, and eventually also capital sized ships.

I would know what i want my amarr ones to do, fit neutralizing drones only and 3 drone links, so i can cap out ships at 132 km range.

Basicly it comes to this, The bonuses you gave it, allows it to the roles of 4 T2 specialized hulls, in a different way, but in most cases a more favorable way.

In my version you need to make a lot more choices, do i want to fit drone control units for bigger flights, or do i use it for something else so i get even more versatility but less effect? arguably the drone bay of mine can go a lot lower (bringing it under 400 m3 is i think a bad idea though) The escort carrier should be a ship of utility Not one where it outshines most other ships
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