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An old idea: The Escort Carrier
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Alric Rosenthal
Black Fox Marauders
Pen Is Out
#1 - 2014-12-04 17:38:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Alric Rosenthal
With the current engagement envelope of the drone based weapon system we really don’t need another class of ships that primarily utilize drones but then again CCP may be considering allowing carriers into high security space. I personally think that is a terrible idea.

The idea is now present and so must be explored. The Nester is a terrible excuse for heavy logistic support. The hull should be re-evaluated. Kero40 of deviantart.com entered this (Fixed Link) for the EVE Online Contest that spawned what we now know as the attack battlecruiser class. His vision was escort carriers, heavy logistics. Careful thought then must be used in coming up with appropriate statistics and bonuses for these ships.

Care to brainstorm with me?

“War is cruelty. There's no use trying to reform it. The crueler it is, the sooner it will be over.” - William Tecumseh Sherman
Anhenka
The New Federation
Sigma Grindset
#2 - 2014-12-04 19:08:52 UTC
*points towards the literally dozens of "Escort carrier" threads just a search away*

General consensus is NO.

Too much overlap between existing roles, too much either OP bits or useless bits. It's just not something that can be implemented without stepping on other ships roles in a big way.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#3 - 2014-12-04 19:09:15 UTC
Dominix

ishtar

Rattlesnake

Vexor/VNI

Gila

Stratios


What more do you need? Seriously?
baltec1
Bat Country
The Initiative.
#4 - 2014-12-04 19:12:37 UTC
Warp speed rigged nano Hel. Just saying.
Alric Rosenthal
Black Fox Marauders
Pen Is Out
#5 - 2014-12-04 19:43:21 UTC
The Dominix, DNI, Ishtar, Vexor, VNI, Gila, Arbitrator, Armageddon, and are all drone carriers.

An escort carrier could still be a viable ship class if done correctly. A missing piece could be filled by such a ship class in the Gallente and Minmatar heavy standard ship hulls in regards to electronic warfare. Those being Minmatar - Target Painter/Web and Gallente - Warp Disruption/Sensor Dampening where in the other two factions have answers in the Scorpion and Armageddon. Of course there is no heavy ship that utilizes tracking disruption.

A heavy logistic or fleet support ship is a viable nitch that could be filled and such a platform would not be designed to dish out the damage but would be designed to do what all logistics or EW platforms do, support a fleet. The drones being unbonused except for the amount you could deploy, say 10 at max level without the ability to deploy fighters. You could even give the ships bonuses to fielding drones that most people do not field, IE - Combat Support Drones, EW Drones other than ECMs.



“War is cruelty. There's no use trying to reform it. The crueler it is, the sooner it will be over.” - William Tecumseh Sherman
Anhenka
The New Federation
Sigma Grindset
#6 - 2014-12-04 19:57:37 UTC
Alric Rosenthal wrote:
The Dominix, DNI, Ishtar, Vexor, VNI, Gila, Arbitrator, Armageddon, and are all drone carriers.

An escort carrier could still be a viable ship class if done correctly. A missing piece could be filled by such a ship class in the Gallente and Minmatar heavy standard ship hulls in regards to electronic warfare. Those being Minmatar - Target Painter/Web and Gallente - Warp Disruption/Sensor Dampening where in the other two factions have answers in the Scorpion and Armageddon. Of course there is no heavy ship that utilizes tracking disruption.

A heavy logistic or fleet support ship is a viable nitch that could be filled and such a platform would not be designed to dish out the damage but would be designed to do what all logistics or EW platforms do, support a fleet. The drones being unbonused except for the amount you could deploy, say 10 at max level without the ability to deploy fighters. You could even give the ships bonuses to fielding drones that most people do not field, IE - Combat Support Drones, EW Drones other than ECMs.






Ok, you know what happens when you take a logi cruiser and double the EHP?

You create a monster. Highly tanky RR platforms are a massive pain in the ass to deal with. Let's say an escort carrier tops out fully tank fit at 150K EHP.

Do you know how hard it is to kill something with 150k EHP before it get's reps? Damn hard unless you have hundreds of people capable of vollying them off the field. Thankfully, Logistic EHP is around 50K, so breaking them is often the weakest part of the chain.

But Logi bonused highly tanky escort carriers capable of tanking, of repping, and deploying swarms of drones to clear tackle off themselves?

An absolute ******* nightmare to balance.
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#7 - 2014-12-04 20:09:20 UTC
Remote repping mechanics, and spider-tanking carriers in particular, are generally considered to be overpowered at the moment. Adding another platform with more remote repping ability than current logi cruisers would only further break an already broken mechanic.

While I do fully think that CCP should look into developing a wider range of capital ships than exist currently, this is one that really isn't necessary.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs
Alric Rosenthal
Black Fox Marauders
Pen Is Out
#8 - 2014-12-04 20:12:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Alric Rosenthal
No. That is not exactly how it works. Half a Guardian's tank is its low signature radius and movement ability to gain transversal. While it is highly resistant to damage it does not have the raw EHP of a battleship.

If a carrier was so small and could move so fast it would be un-killable. In fact no one would fly anything else. If you give this new ship class modified signature radius and speed relative to its size it would be just as vulnerable as every other ship currently in the game. My idea would place the ship size just over battleship meaning it would be slower than a battleship and have a relatively larger signature radius. Though you could also go smaller than a battleship and sit those variables somewhere between a battle-cruiser and a battleship.

All that being said the ship class would be rather redundant as has been stated and there need not be any more proliferation of logistical support or drone boats to levy the power of the many against the few. Still a platform that bonuses racial flavor EW drones in the battleship class while acting as a heavy logistics platform would be an interesting addition. That is with the sad state of affairs that EW drones are in and a lack of EW options in the battleship class for the Gal and Min.

“War is cruelty. There's no use trying to reform it. The crueler it is, the sooner it will be over.” - William Tecumseh Sherman
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#9 - 2014-12-04 20:15:56 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
Alric Rosenthal wrote:
The Dominix, DNI, Ishtar, Vexor, VNI, Gila, Arbitrator, Armageddon, and are all drone carriers.

An escort carrier could still be a viable ship class if done correctly. A missing piece could be filled by such a ship class in the Gallente and Minmatar heavy standard ship hulls in regards to electronic warfare. Those being Minmatar - Target Painter/Web and Gallente - Warp Disruption/Sensor Dampening where in the other two factions have answers in the Scorpion and Armageddon. Of course there is no heavy ship that utilizes tracking disruption.

A heavy logistic or fleet support ship is a viable nitch that could be filled and such a platform would not be designed to dish out the damage but would be designed to do what all logistics or EW platforms do, support a fleet. The drones being unbonused except for the amount you could deploy, say 10 at max level without the ability to deploy fighters. You could even give the ships bonuses to fielding drones that most people do not field, IE - Combat Support Drones, EW Drones other than ECMs.






Ok, you know what happens when you take a logi cruiser and double the EHP?

You create a monster. Highly tanky RR platforms are a massive pain in the ass to deal with. Let's say an escort carrier tops out fully tank fit at 150K EHP.

Do you know how hard it is to kill something with 150k EHP before it get's reps? Damn hard unless you have hundreds of people capable of vollying them off the field. Thankfully, Logistic EHP is around 50K, so breaking them is often the weakest part of the chain.

But Logi bonused highly tanky escort carriers capable of tanking, of repping, and deploying swarms of drones to clear tackle off themselves?

An absolute ******* nightmare to balance.


It's ok man, we only have to snowball the idea and introduce escort dreads to dps down the escort carrier. Then, we introduce escort super carrier as a counter to blob escort dreads and finalize it all with an escort titan. To balance out that stuff, I say we make them "exorbitant" to build. Yeah that ought to work.

Lol
Alric Rosenthal
Black Fox Marauders
Pen Is Out
#10 - 2014-12-04 20:18:50 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Anhenka wrote:
Alric Rosenthal wrote:
The Dominix, DNI, Ishtar, Vexor, VNI, Gila, Arbitrator, Armageddon, and are all drone carriers.

An escort carrier could still be a viable ship class if done correctly. A missing piece could be filled by such a ship class in the Gallente and Minmatar heavy standard ship hulls in regards to electronic warfare. Those being Minmatar - Target Painter/Web and Gallente - Warp Disruption/Sensor Dampening where in the other two factions have answers in the Scorpion and Armageddon. Of course there is no heavy ship that utilizes tracking disruption.

A heavy logistic or fleet support ship is a viable nitch that could be filled and such a platform would not be designed to dish out the damage but would be designed to do what all logistics or EW platforms do, support a fleet. The drones being unbonused except for the amount you could deploy, say 10 at max level without the ability to deploy fighters. You could even give the ships bonuses to fielding drones that most people do not field, IE - Combat Support Drones, EW Drones other than ECMs.






Ok, you know what happens when you take a logi cruiser and double the EHP?

You create a monster. Highly tanky RR platforms are a massive pain in the ass to deal with. Let's say an escort carrier tops out fully tank fit at 150K EHP.

Do you know how hard it is to kill something with 150k EHP before it get's reps? Damn hard unless you have hundreds of people capable of vollying them off the field. Thankfully, Logistic EHP is around 50K, so breaking them is often the weakest part of the chain.

But Logi bonused highly tanky escort carriers capable of tanking, of repping, and deploying swarms of drones to clear tackle off themselves?

An absolute ******* nightmare to balance.


It's ok man, we only have to snowball the idea and introduce escort dreads to dps down the escort carrier. Then, we introduce escort super carrier as a counter to blob escort dreads and finalize it all with an escort titan. To balance out that stuff, I say we make them "exorbitant" to build. Yeah that ought to work.

Lol


We have escort dreads already. :D

“War is cruelty. There's no use trying to reform it. The crueler it is, the sooner it will be over.” - William Tecumseh Sherman
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#11 - 2014-12-04 20:29:58 UTC
So I'll be nice and not **** on your parade since you weren't super-specific about it and there's room for interpretation.

-So are we talking a ship that can field fighters here or just souped-up drones?

-Is the 'escort' term related to logistics help or just being able to field small and cheap fighter support in an auxilary capacity?

-The concept art you linked seems to indicate ships smaller than carriers. It's certainly gorgeous, but size-wise, are we talking about a cap ship smaller than a carrier but larger than a battleship, or battleship-sized subcap that can field a few fighters?
Alric Rosenthal
Black Fox Marauders
Pen Is Out
#12 - 2014-12-04 20:45:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Alric Rosenthal
Catherine Laartii wrote:
So I'll be nice and not **** on your parade since you weren't super-specific about it and there's room for interpretation.

-So are we talking a ship that can field fighters here or just souped-up drones?

-Is the 'escort' term related to logistics help or just being able to field small and cheap fighter support in an auxilary capacity?

-The concept art you linked seems to indicate ships smaller than carriers. It's certainly gorgeous, but size-wise, are we talking about a cap ship smaller than a carrier but larger than a battleship, or battleship-sized subcap that can field a few fighters?


No fighters. I did state no fighters. There is no need to give such a ship drone damage bonuses. There are already plenty of ships with drone damage bonuses. With the current lack of use of EW drones it would be refreshing to see such a ship class receive bonuses to using those drones for flavor depending on race. IE - Minmatar getting bonuses for using the Berserker TP-300,600,900 and Berserker SW-300,600,900. Of course the amount of drones fielded would be increased. One per level in addition to the customary five.

Escort in logistical support though the platform should do it differently than the cruiser and carrier class logistical support we have in the game. Be this done through effective repair range, amount repaired, or staying power of the ship's capacitor reserves is up for grabs.

No jump drive. Can move through high security space. You can refit off of it like the Nestor. Can move a single frigate sized vessel in hold. Even at this time I am thinking of the implications so do not think just because I have put them down here that I have explored every avenue.

As far as size you have two options if creating a new ship class. Slightly smaller than a battleship or slightly larger than a battleship.

“War is cruelty. There's no use trying to reform it. The crueler it is, the sooner it will be over.” - William Tecumseh Sherman
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#13 - 2014-12-04 21:50:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Joe Risalo
Here's my idea on this...

This could be another class of ship that is capable of Using the Bastion Module.

Let me throw out an example

Gorgon (look it up) - T2 Caldari class battleship - Support Carrier

Support Carrier - allows the use of 1 addl drone per level - IE 10 at lvl 5
Caldari Drone Specialization - X% bonus to the effectiveness of target jamming drones per level
Caldari Battleship - X% bonus to shield resistances per lvl

Role bonus - Can fit Bastion Module
Role Bonus - reduced cap usage of Large Remote Shield Transporters

Bastion Bonuses
Bastion Mode increases shield tanking capability by X% (Can either be tied to boost amount, recharge rate, and/or resists)(recharge would be cool, as these ships could have a focus on passive tanking to reduce cap needs)

Bastion increases the range (and possibly effectiveness) of large Remote Shield Transporters ( i'm thinking range somewhere in the 50k range

Bastion makes the ship immune to ewar

Bastion Penalties
Immobile
Cannot receive cap transfer


I'm not gonna bother to throw out a fitting layout, cause honestly, I don't know how it would work out.

As you can see though, while the ship can be useful as a mobile support vessel through drone damage and/or drone ewar, it has no bonus to drone damage or range.
When in Bastion, it becomes a stationary repping platform, while also still retaining the same drone setup.
Perhaps even allowing Bastion mode to boost the output and/or range of Shield transfer drones might also be nice.


Being limited in range and size of a full fleet of 10 drones would help to keep this ship quite balanced in DPS combat, but also allowing it to have utility through ecm drone effectiveness. Thus you would have to choose between ecm or damage, and would be hendered if trying to mix the two.

While in bastion, it would be capable of significant remote rep, while balancing the ship platform itself by not allowing it to receive remote. The ewar immunity is just there since it can't receive any type of bonuses.


Now, I'm kinda fond of the idea of making these ships passive tanked. Reason for this, it because passive tanking would require more choice between tank or drone range/damage modifiers.
However, to go along with this, I would like to see passive armor regeneration modules, similar to passive shield modules.
What you'd call them is beyond my scope, but would be a nice, and frankly needed addition to Eve.


So, you'd either have a moderately tanked drone boat with moderate sensor strength and independent damage and/or utility.

Or you'd have a substantially tanked and ewar immune, immobile platform with limited range heavy logistics support.


I mean, obviously this isn't an exact proposal, but i think factoring Bastion in order for it to become a true logistics ship, thus removing the possibility of cap chaining. Which allows for it to be fit into the role without having to worry about the OP nature of fleet logistics.


Edit... i believe I forgot to mention somewhere in there that the bandwidth of this ship would be limited to 100, thus it would only be capable of fielding 10 small or medium drones.
Sentries and heavies can have pretty significant damage in a group of 10, even without bonuses, so lets stay away from that.
Alric Rosenthal
Black Fox Marauders
Pen Is Out
#14 - 2014-12-04 22:22:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Alric Rosenthal
Anything like this would have to be done very carefully. I am not sure that giving a high-sec capable logistics/e-war platform e-war immunity would be a good idea.

You would have one of two occurrences happen. Either no one would use the ship with the bastion module or the ship would be over-powered given the cycle time of bastion and what it provides the ship and the fleet in which the ship is in. In one instance your rep would have a short range and in bastion you could not move. You would be bumped away, separated from your fleet, and destroyed as an afterthought. No one would fit the bastion in such a case.

If you gave the ship a bonus to repair and transfer range then you would be a high-sec logistic platform with e-war immunity and a battleship tank that also provides sizeable e-war. You would step all over the logistic cruiser nitch and do it better while providing e-war. Some serious thought would need to go into it. You want to provide a unique ship role and you certainly don't want to take away from any ship that is currently in the game. You also need to think of the possible implications of everything you allow. We are nothing if not resourceful and if there is a way to break a ship or module to gain an advantage, we will do it.

“War is cruelty. There's no use trying to reform it. The crueler it is, the sooner it will be over.” - William Tecumseh Sherman
Vapor Ventrillian
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2014-12-05 01:32:37 UTC
First mistake was asking forum peeps to brainstorm...they don't they just put **** on stuff Twisted

There is no second.. Smile and carrier with massive fleet bonuses and a **** tone of drones and call it the Mother titan and it can go any where

sometimes you just have to keep it up until the concept is taken seriously by the right people Cool

plus one from me

The Evil Overlord of Scope, self elected as all good overlords should be
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#16 - 2014-12-05 02:10:43 UTC
Going way back here in a historical perspective and yes before you even say it I know this is a game and not real life.

Many of the arguments made here against an escort carrier were used at the beginning of WW 2 when the whole concept of an escort carrier was first presented to navy brass. All these years later the escort carrier is still a viable part of virtually every navy in the world especially those smaller nations that cannot afford the multi-billion dollar investment that a full sized carrier represents.

Back to the game there are many cases where new ships just compete for a role that is currently filled by other ships and yet most of those new additions to the ship line up are well received. Like the OP I think an escort carrier could and would make a great addition to this game, the real problem is figuring out what stats, abilities etc to give them.
Misato Katsuragi
N. E. R. V.
#17 - 2014-12-05 07:32:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Misato Katsuragi
Escort Carrier discussion threads in TL;DR format.



"I want to use 5 fighters in highsec and be able to rep other ships as to justify its purpose."
Komodo Askold
Strategic Exploration and Development Corp
Silent Company
#18 - 2014-12-05 13:35:25 UTC
Honestly, I'd like to see Escort Carriers, but I think they shouldn't be RR platforms; just drones. For example, they could fit Drone Control Units, but only be able to use normal drones (not fighters or bombers). I think that would make them more balanced.
Alric Rosenthal
Black Fox Marauders
Pen Is Out
#19 - 2014-12-05 15:04:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Alric Rosenthal
@ Donnachadh

Thanks for the support. +1

@ Misato Katsurgi

You thought the discussion was TL:DR and thus skipped over the part of the discussion where I said that the platform should not be able to field fighters. It has also been stated that while the platform should be able to RR it should do so in a different capacity or flavor so it does not step on the roles of any current ship category in the game.

@ Komodo

I never mentioned bombers but if it can not field fighters then my assumption would be that not being able to field bombers would be a given as it should not be able to field fighters. There is no need for a dedicated highsec damage drone platform. The Dominix, DNI, Ishtar, Vexor, VNI, Gila, Arbitrator, Armageddon, and are all drone carriers. Thank you for your input. +1


The currency discussion revolves around the use of a platform that can field bonused Electronic Warfare Drones, Combat Utility Drones, & Logistics Drones in racial flavor and possibly limited RR. It has been stated by me that the platform should not get bonused drone damage or tracking though a bonus to drone EHP, range, or speed may be warranted in addition to additional drones controlled per level or/and the ability to fit drone control units.

The platform should have a very low number of highslots, no more than three I would think. It was stated by Joe Risalo and noted now by myself that even without drone damage bonuses a ship that could field twelve or thirteen heavy drones would be a considerably powerful platform in high security space. It may be that the platform needs a limiter in bandwidth to limit its use as a heavy drone damage platform and thus it would promote mixed deployment of heavy and medium drones in a brawl with light drones for on grid interception. I will try to fiddle with EFT and in game tonight if I have some time. Perhaps I can come up with some slot layouts. Keep talking about it. Thanks.

Amarr:
Tracking Disruption - Acolyte TD-300, Infiltrator TD-600, Praetor TD-900
Energy Neutralization - Acolyte EV-300, Infiltrator EV-600, Praetor EV-900
Cross Over - Armor Repair - Light Armor Maintenance Bot, Medium Armor Maintenance Bot, Heavy Armor Maintenance Bot

Caldari:
ECM - Hornet EC-300, Vespa EC-600, Wasp EC-900
Shield Repair - Light Shield Maintenance Bot, Medium Shield Maintenance Bot, Heavy Shield Maintenance Bot
Cross Over - Target Painting - Warrior TP-300, Valkyrie TP-600, Berserker TP-900 or Tracking Disruption - Acolyte TD-300, Infiltrator TD-600, Praetor TD-900

Gallente:
Sensor Dampening - Hobgoblin SD-300, Hammerhead SD-600, Ogre SD-900
Armor Repair - Light Armor Maintenance Bot, Medium Armor Maintenance Bot, Heavy Armor Maintenance Bot
Cross Over - Tracking Disruption - Acolyte TD-300, Infiltrator TD-600, Praetor TD-900 or Target Painting - Warrior TP-300, Valkyrie TP-600, Berserker TP-900

Minmatar:
Target Painting - Warrior TP-300, Valkyrie TP-600, Berserker TP-900
Stasis Webification - Warrior SW-300, Valkyrie SW-600, Berserker SW-900
Cross Over - Shield Repair - Light Shield Maintenance Bot, Medium Shield Maintenance Bot, Heavy Shield Maintenance Bot

“War is cruelty. There's no use trying to reform it. The crueler it is, the sooner it will be over.” - William Tecumseh Sherman
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2014-12-05 16:55:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Alric Rosenthal wrote:
His vision was escort carriers, heavy logistics. Careful thought then must be used in coming up with appropriate statistics and bonuses for these ships.

Care to brainstorm with me?

I already know.

Mini-capitals, larger than battleships, Orca-sized ships with powergrid a bit higher than battleships, slot layouts similar to carriers, and a reduction in powergrid cost of fitting triage module and drone control units. At maximum, it can field 10 drones (cannot field fighters), or in triage mode it acts as a heavy logistics unit easily able to fit 4 large logistics modules that then receive the bonuses from the triage module. With 3 remote armor repair or shield transfer, it will have 20% higher repair speed than a Guardian or Basilisk (not counting drones), and is capable of having very strong defenses with the triage bonus to on-board reps and the ability to easily fit multiple large armor repairers or X-large shield boosters. No jump drive, but allowed freely in highsec. Requires Advanced Spaceship Command 1, and if you train ASC to 4 or 5 it won't align nearly as slowly. Comes with on-board fitting service and both a small fleet hangar (maybe 1000m3) and a small ship maintenance bay (maybe 20,000m3). Does not require the Capital Ships skill. Uses the racial battleship skill for skill bonuses.

Brings the style of carriers to sup-cap warfare both in highsec and just for staying mobile and running through stargates. Here's a list of things that carriers can do that the escort carrier cannot do:

  • use fighters
  • launch 15 drones
  • launch 10 drones without the use of drone control units
  • use capital repair and logistics modules (escort cruiser might be able to fit one with a lot of powergrid bonuses)
  • jump to a cyno





Alric Rosenthal wrote:
An escort carrier could still be a viable ship class if done correctly. A missing piece could be filled by such a ship class in the Gallente and Minmatar heavy standard ship hulls in regards to electronic warfare. Those being Minmatar - Target Painter/Web and Gallente - Warp Disruption/Sensor Dampening where in the other two factions have answers in the Scorpion and Armageddon. Of course there is no heavy ship that utilizes tracking disruption.

I'd like to see Gallente and Minmatar receive a proper disruption battleship. The Gallente could use a combination of unbonused drones with sensor dampeners and warp disruptors, while the Minmatar would use webs and painters, with unbonused launcher hardpoints. Would be neat to see logistics battleships too. In fact I think the large reps should be built for battleships and that the logistics cruisers should use medium reps. Logi is too strong I think, and doubling the powergrid cost of large reps along with re-adjusting T2 logistics bonuses would fix that I think.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
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