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What about Off Grid Boosting?

First post
Author
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#461 - 2014-12-09 01:46:26 UTC
Nerf alts.
Gavin Dax
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#462 - 2014-12-09 02:48:50 UTC
Primary This Rifter wrote:
Yes, a second account for a boosting alt helps you in a fight.
Nerf OGB.

A second account for a logi alt helps you in a fight.
Nerf logi.

A second account for a Falcon alt helps you in a fight.
Nerf Falcon.

A second account for a DPS alt helps you in a fight.
Nerf DPS.


OGB, logi, and ECM are all broken. EVE would be a much better game without these things.

OGB has the worst risk/reward balance of those though. It's also not something that someone would reasonably do on their main.
5yndr0m3
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#463 - 2014-12-09 02:49:48 UTC
Shaleb Heworo wrote:
Primary This Rifter wrote:
I've been on these forums a few years.
I've never heard any substantive argument for removing OGB.


can you please explain why breaking the risk vs reward meta mechanic which kind of constitutes eve is not a aubstantive argument against off grid boosts?


Hi I am a OGB alt. I spend most of my time in a spaceship cloaked. sometimes I uncloak when links are required. To answer your question about it breaking risk/reward, let me help you out.

My links Tengu costs ~700 mil after being fit. Include the ~300 mil Republic Fleet Mindlink and you are right at or under 1bil isk. My Tengu can get scanned out and anything with a civilian gun and a warp disruptor can kill it, if they can catch it, which it has been caught along with my Loki Links.

My risk is ~1bil every time I undock. This is not including other implants. Anyone in a noob ship can kill it. Its a risk and the reward is my links to whatever fleet I am boosting.

Now if you want to talk about risk/reward being broken, lets talk about mining boosts that sit inside a pos shield with no risk at all, while giving an entire fleet mining boosts.
Bullet Therapist
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#464 - 2014-12-09 03:03:21 UTC
5yndr0m3 wrote:
Shaleb Heworo wrote:
Primary This Rifter wrote:
I've been on these forums a few years.
I've never heard any substantive argument for removing OGB.


can you please explain why breaking the risk vs reward meta mechanic which kind of constitutes eve is not a aubstantive argument against off grid boosts?


Hi I am a OGB alt. I spend most of my time in a spaceship cloaked. sometimes I uncloak when links are required. To answer your question about it breaking risk/reward, let me help you out.

My links Tengu costs ~700 mil after being fit. Include the ~300 mil Republic Fleet Mindlink and you are right at or under 1bil isk. My Tengu can get scanned out and anything with a civilian gun and a warp disruptor can kill it, if they can catch it, which it has been caught along with my Loki Links.

My risk is ~1bil every time I undock. This is not including other implants. Anyone in a noob ship can kill it. Its a risk and the reward is my links to whatever fleet I am boosting.

Now if you want to talk about risk/reward being broken, lets talk about mining boosts that sit inside a pos shield with no risk at all, while giving an entire fleet mining boosts.


Seriously, how about we make it so that mining boosts have to be on grid and orca pilots have to sacrifice all of their tanking modules to fit boosts?
Bullet Therapist
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#465 - 2014-12-09 03:11:26 UTC
5yndr0m3 wrote:
Shaleb Heworo wrote:
Primary This Rifter wrote:
I've been on these forums a few years.
I've never heard any substantive argument for removing OGB.


can you please explain why breaking the risk vs reward meta mechanic which kind of constitutes eve is not a aubstantive argument against off grid boosts?


Hi I am a OGB alt. I spend most of my time in a spaceship cloaked. sometimes I uncloak when links are required. To answer your question about it breaking risk/reward, let me help you out.

My links Tengu costs ~700 mil after being fit. Include the ~300 mil Republic Fleet Mindlink and you are right at or under 1bil isk. My Tengu can get scanned out and anything with a civilian gun and a warp disruptor can kill it, if they can catch it, which it has been caught along with my Loki Links.

My risk is ~1bil every time I undock. This is not including other implants. Anyone in a noob ship can kill it. Its a risk and the reward is my links to whatever fleet I am boosting.

Now if you want to talk about risk/reward being broken, lets talk about mining boosts that sit inside a pos shield with no risk at all, while giving an entire fleet mining boosts.


None of the people that whine about OGB know anything about how vulnerable boosting toons are, how easy it can be to find them, how quickly they can be annihilated, or that they improve your combat ability in about the same way that an equivalent cost of deadspace and faction gear would, nor do they care.

At this point CCP should probably release a 'solo' module that provides benefits to ships while sacrificing the ability to have remote assistance or boosts, even if it were only to shut up the 'make EVE fair' crowd.
Gavin Dax
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#466 - 2014-12-09 03:14:32 UTC
5yndr0m3 wrote:
Shaleb Heworo wrote:
Primary This Rifter wrote:
I've been on these forums a few years.
I've never heard any substantive argument for removing OGB.


can you please explain why breaking the risk vs reward meta mechanic which kind of constitutes eve is not a aubstantive argument against off grid boosts?


Hi I am a OGB alt. I spend most of my time in a spaceship cloaked. sometimes I uncloak when links are required. To answer your question about it breaking risk/reward, let me help you out.

My links Tengu costs ~700 mil after being fit. Include the ~300 mil Republic Fleet Mindlink and you are right at or under 1bil isk. My Tengu can get scanned out and anything with a civilian gun and a warp disruptor can kill it, if they can catch it, which it has been caught along with my Loki Links.

My risk is ~1bil every time I undock. This is not including other implants. Anyone in a noob ship can kill it. Its a risk and the reward is my links to whatever fleet I am boosting.

Now if you want to talk about risk/reward being broken, lets talk about mining boosts that sit inside a pos shield with no risk at all, while giving an entire fleet mining boosts.


The fleet you're boosting can warp to you and kill the noob ship...

Also, I would recommend boosting on a station (so you can dock at any sign of trouble), on a gate (so you can jump and warp if if attacked), or right next to a POS shield (preferably with POS guns).

Honestly, that's probably the safest 1 bil ISK ship you can fly "in a fight". It also probably provides more benefits to you than any other 1 bil ISK ship would.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
R I O T
#467 - 2014-12-09 03:22:14 UTC
Gavin Dax wrote:
It also probably provides more benefits to you than any other 1 bil ISK ship would.

Not even close. The only utility in a ship+booster versus ship+ship choice is that ship+booster is moderately easier to control. If we compare, say, a buffer Vindicator plus a booster against two Vindicators, the former gets like a 25% extra tank and some tackle range/sensor strength, versus double of everything except range for the latter.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

Gavin Dax
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#468 - 2014-12-09 03:23:25 UTC
Bullet Therapist wrote:

None of the people that whine about OGB know anything about how vulnerable boosting toons are, how easy it can be to find them, how quickly they can be annihilated, or that they improve your combat ability in about the same way that an equivalent cost of deadspace and faction gear would, nor do they care.


If you fly with deadspace, you're doing so with far greater risk to your investment. Same for implants. You actually get less of a boost from those things. Not to mention OGBs boost everyone in the fleet.

"how vulnerable boosting toons are" lol really?
Gavin Dax
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#469 - 2014-12-09 03:33:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Gavin Dax
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Gavin Dax wrote:
It also probably provides more benefits to you than any other 1 bil ISK ship would.

Not even close. The only utility in a ship+booster versus ship+ship choice is that ship+booster is moderately easier to control. If we compare, say, a buffer Vindicator plus a booster against two Vindicators, the former gets like a 25% extra tank and some tackle range/sensor strength, versus double of everything except range for the latter.


"moderately easier to control" umm no. It's *way* easier to control. And while that vindicator example is pretty contrived, I will say that yes a boosted vindicator with self-reps is preferable to 2 vindicators for PvP.

I see what you did there though. It's like trying to compare a skirmish boosted carrier to 2 carriers... lol

EDIT: You also didn't mention the risk. You're risking more with 2 vindicators than with 1+1.
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#470 - 2014-12-09 03:37:27 UTC
I don't even...
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
R I O T
#471 - 2014-12-09 03:38:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
Gavin Dax wrote:
"moderately easier to control" umm no. It's *way* easier to control. And while that vindicator example is pretty contrived, I will say that yes a boosted vindicator with self-reps is preferable to 2 vindicators for PvP.

Nope, even then, the booster still provides less than a 100% increase in tank, and the dps is simply worth more, unless you're fighting so many enemies that you shouldn't have been in the battle to begin with. I run a Hyperion most of the time, and am very familiar with active armor tank strategies. A booster is preferable because of its convenience, but a second combat ship or a Falcon would offer more utility.

Gavin Dax wrote:
EDIT: You also didn't mention the risk. You're risking more with 2 vindicators than with 1+1.

Not really, no. The cost of a Vindicator (at least the way I fly them) and a max-linked T3 booster is very similar (about 900m each).

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

Gavin Dax
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#472 - 2014-12-09 04:18:40 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Gavin Dax wrote:
"moderately easier to control" umm no. It's *way* easier to control. And while that vindicator example is pretty contrived, I will say that yes a boosted vindicator with self-reps is preferable to 2 vindicators for PvP.

Nope, even then, the booster still provides less than a 100% increase in tank, and the dps is simply worth more, unless you're fighting so many enemies that you shouldn't have been in the battle to begin with. I run a Hyperion most of the time, and am very familiar with active armor tank strategies. A booster is preferable because of its convenience, but a second combat ship or a Falcon would offer more utility.

Gavin Dax wrote:
EDIT: You also didn't mention the risk. You're risking more with 2 vindicators than with 1+1.

Not really, no. The cost of a Vindicator (at least the way I fly them) and a max-linked T3 booster is very similar (about 900m each).


Your "fleet" with the booster can tank almost twice the DPS. You will get far more people to over-commit against that than 2 vindis. You're trying to compare apples to oranges here though. My comment about a booster providing more benefits for 1 bil ISK was in the context of a single player. Though this is even true generally for fleets larger than a few people anyway.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
R I O T
#473 - 2014-12-09 04:26:23 UTC
A combat ship with a booster is as much a "single player" as two combat ships of some type. You trade off some efficiency for some ease of use, and that's about it. The two variations accomplish things differently, but to the same effect.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

Gavin Dax
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#474 - 2014-12-09 05:07:54 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
A combat ship with a booster is as much a "single player" as two combat ships of some type. You trade off some efficiency for some ease of use, and that's about it. The two variations accomplish things differently, but to the same effect.


No, in no way are the two the same in terms of risk/reward. You are risking way more with two combat ships. The trade off is in terms of risk, and the best choice is obvious.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
R I O T
#475 - 2014-12-09 05:13:13 UTC
I've run both, and a combat ship plus a Falcon is both cheaper/more efficient and much safer. It's just more intense because you have to give more input. This is how things were done before boosters took the stage.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#476 - 2014-12-09 05:21:21 UTC
Cancel Align NOW wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Are you seriously going to argue that a second account should be a requirement?

No one has to argue for or against this; the premise of alt usage is practically built into the game by CCP.

Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Shade Millith wrote:
Nerfing OGB is a buff to blobs, and a nerf to smaller gangs.

That's all I care about.

OGB needs to stay, or the blob is just going to get stronger than it already is.

Having more numbers shouldn't also mean that your ships are simply better too.


You're assuming the blob won't just have stacking boosters?

Putting boosters on grid will mean that the blob will get to keep theirs, but the smaller group won't. At least when boosters are off-grid, both sides need to put in roughly the same effort to de-boost the other.


In addition it might mean when a bigger group move in next door and are looking for constant fights, the smaller groups boosters will get sick of dying first in every fight and either; stop flying boosters (small guy loses), stop logging in (we all lose), leave small group to look for bigger group (yay more blobs).



EVE is already a blobbing competition which Goonswarm won.
A 30 man fleet vs. a 45 man fleet when both have unkillable boosters is still going to die. It will just die faster when it has to bring boosts on grid and watch them get primaried, though it might be interesting to see command ship-centric doctrines become a thing. But it's not fleet fights I'm concerned about. If you are badly enough outnumbered that your boosts are going to be volleyed no matter what, you probably need to go make more friends, or sub a few more logi alts. People abuse the **** out of t3 boosters for fw solo with little to no risk, and absent some clever guesswork their influence remains hidden unlike ANY other alt which would be on the killmail ergo immediately watchlisted with the main's name in the notes. I'm simply not convinced that OGB are as critical for small gangs as some say. If you are that badly outnumbered, having safe boosts is only going to turn the tide of your opponent is terrible. And besides, EVE players don't fight superior numbers except by accident, or an utterly lopsided ship matchup.
Ssabat Thraxx
DUST Expeditionary Team
Good Sax
#477 - 2014-12-09 05:22:17 UTC
5yndr0m3 wrote:
Shaleb Heworo wrote:
Primary This Rifter wrote:
I've been on these forums a few years.
I've never heard any substantive argument for removing OGB.


can you please explain why breaking the risk vs reward meta mechanic which kind of constitutes eve is not a aubstantive argument against off grid boosts?


Hi I am a OGB alt. I spend most of my time in a spaceship cloaked. sometimes I uncloak when links are required. To answer your question about it breaking risk/reward, let me help you out.

My links Tengu costs ~700 mil after being fit. Include the ~300 mil Republic Fleet Mindlink and you are right at or under 1bil isk. My Tengu can get scanned out and anything with a civilian gun and a warp disruptor can kill it, if they can catch it, which it has been caught along with my Loki Links.

My risk is ~1bil every time I undock. This is not including other implants. Anyone in a noob ship can kill it. Its a risk and the reward is my links to whatever fleet I am boosting.

Now if you want to talk about risk/reward being broken, lets talk about mining boosts that sit inside a pos shield with no risk at all, while giving an entire fleet mining boosts.


Ive seen some pretty sick tanks on (far cheaper) command ships.

\m/ O.o \m/

"You're a freak ..." - Solecist Project

Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
R I O T
#478 - 2014-12-09 05:44:06 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
EVE is already a blobbing competition which Goonswarm won.
A 30 man fleet vs. a 45 man fleet when both have unkillable boosters is still going to die. It will just die faster when it has to bring boosts on grid and watch them get primaried, though it might be interesting to see command ship-centric doctrines become a thing. But it's not fleet fights I'm concerned about. If you are badly enough outnumbered that your boosts are going to be volleyed no matter what, you probably need to go make more friends, or sub a few more logi alts. People abuse the **** out of t3 boosters for fw solo with little to no risk, and absent some clever guesswork their influence remains hidden unlike ANY other alt which would be on the killmail ergo immediately watchlisted with the main's name in the notes. I'm simply not convinced that OGB are as critical for small gangs as some say. If you are that badly outnumbered, having safe boosts is only going to turn the tide of your opponent is terrible. And besides, EVE players don't fight superior numbers except by accident, or an utterly lopsided ship matchup.

See, you're supporting my argument without even realizing it. The fact that those possibilities exist, and aren't even rare, should be considered in this debate.

And if this debate is centered around FW, then the solution, which has already been brought up, is simple: jam boosting signals inside the sites (at the very least the small ones). This would mesh well with the fact that those gates prevent certain ships from going through anyway, so a lot of times that "Falcon backup" is impossible regardless of other factors. Still, even this sort of solution goes against the sandbox.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

Cancel Align NOW
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#479 - 2014-12-09 07:56:49 UTC
Gavin Dax wrote:


OGB, logi, and ECM are all broken. EVE would be a much better game without these things.

OGB has the worst risk/reward balance of those though. It's also not something that someone would reasonably do on their main.


Hear ye, hear ye, Goonswarm have decided to remove OGB, Logi and ECM. Vote this person on to the CSM. A goon with quality shiptoasting skills.
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#480 - 2014-12-09 08:44:52 UTC
Because joining a corp that joins Goonswarm or joining a corp in Goonswarm totally makes you a Goon.