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Nerf high sec incursions

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afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#61 - 2014-10-21 08:37:36 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
People run incursions because they are FUN, not because it's the max isk/hour or any nonsense like that.
No PVE in EVE is fun after you've done it several dozen or hundred times. People run highsec incursions because they are safe in HIGHSEC.



No matter how little sense it may make to you, you can't tell other people what they do or do not enjoy. Such is the nature of life Smile
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2014-10-21 09:22:21 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
Short version: Nope

Longer version: Sometimes I think others who make isk try to distract with 'look over there' and incursions often seem to be the best scape goats. Not sure why, as while in incursion fleets and talking to various members of the community I have met lost of people using incursions to fund their Pvp or buy ships to lose in huge battles.

Some do it because they actually like being part of a community where you don't HAVE to obey day to day orders or calls to arms, just show up and be in a decently fitted ship.

I do incursions (logi most times) to chat with folks and touch base. More tyhan one groups make me feel welcome every time I show up and that makes for a nice feeling.

So, no. I will not put this in my book nor support it in council and will argue against it if it is brought up by someone else.

nope

m


Entirely with you on this. It always amazes me when people demand nerfs because they don't like an area of the game. If you don't like it don't do it, very simple really. If you like nullsec life and struggle for isk I thought that was what SRP was for and there are many other ways to make isk in Eve. Personally I try all of those available to me and my favourite acticities change every now and then. Trying to tell others their activity isn't 'fun' is daft since if it wasn't fun to them on some level they simply wouldn't do it.

Incursions are fine in my view. If they generate so much isk where does it go? If the incursion runners aren't spending it elsewhere on expensive ships/goods to lose then it is sitting in an account doing nothing and effectively sunk from te game (since it denies others access to it). Either way its good for the economy as it explodes in fire or forces others to work in other ways for their plex/subscribe for gametime.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#63 - 2014-10-21 09:38:35 UTC
The levels of sheer stupid in this thread are so high that you should all be ashamed of yourselves. This is worse than an anti-cloaking thread.
Jezza McWaffle
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#64 - 2014-10-21 09:51:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Jezza McWaffle
I can happily say as an incursion runner sometimes, the risk / reward ratio is very much broken. While I can make more money in my Wormhole incursions are the best way to make alot of safe ISK. Sure you might die but that is 100% down to player stupidity. They should move all HQ's out of high sec in my opinion and revamp the lower sites and make low sec the area of good incursion operations. Buffing the reward their of course. I would happily take a fleet to run low sec incursions, and it would be a fleet optimised for PvP so when you get dropped you kick their asses and not complain about 'the blob'

Wormholes worst badass | Checkout my Wormhole blog
King Fu Hostile
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#65 - 2014-10-21 09:59:37 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

Actually if you want to count 'all isk in game' they produce about 10%.
And given most of the community channels have hundreds of people in channel even in the dead times.... I suspect there are thousands of active players who are involved in incursions.
The LP is also not a significant buff to incursion incomes.

WH's produce about double the isk Incursions do, and isk is not the primary income of incursions. And I'd be surprised if they have tens of thousands of people in WH. So WH income needs nerfing as well obviously?
High sec is by no means the largest income in the game. Despite having the most people.


Yes, wormholes have much higher population than incursion communities, and that population consists of living corporations and alliances exposing all their assets to risk, all the time. Wormhole income is balanced by the highest risk level in EVE.

To reach Incursion-level income in wormholes, you need to run capital escalations in C5 and C6. With all the investments, effort and prerequisites in order to maintain a capital fleet in deep wormhole space. You also get 0 ISK from killing tens of thousands of sleepers. Everything has to looted and salvaged and sold in empire space.

If LP isn't a significant buff, then the direct payouts are too high.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#66 - 2014-10-21 11:10:04 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
People run incursions because they are FUN, not because it's the max isk/hour or any nonsense like that.
No PVE in EVE is fun after you've done it several dozen or hundred times. People run highsec incursions because they are safe in HIGHSEC.



No matter how little sense it may make to you, you can't tell other people what they do or do not enjoy. Such is the nature of life Smile


Indeed. There are people who enjoy mining of all things and they have every right to.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#67 - 2014-10-21 17:06:28 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
FireFrenzy wrote:
You mean other then incursion ships costing several billion isk each exploding every day because even with the highly well sorted fleets with grade A logi pilots and baller FCs who have their running down to a science?

Newbie incursion pilots are blowing up every day. Experienced incursion runners make almost all profit, spending only a small fraction of their proceeds on replacing ships.


In most cases of a community doing it right, a brand new pilot will have about as much extra tank on as they will broadcast late. Thus the newbies explode about as often as the veterans as a percentage of time in fleets (newbies tend to outnumber vets in the fleets that lose any ship by a large margin, and this is usually down to doctrine and vetting of logi)

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Alundil
Rolled Out
#68 - 2014-10-21 17:31:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Alundil
King Fu Hostile wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

Actually if you want to count 'all isk in game' they produce about 10%.
And given most of the community channels have hundreds of people in channel even in the dead times.... I suspect there are thousands of active players who are involved in incursions.
The LP is also not a significant buff to incursion incomes.

WH's produce about double the isk Incursions do, and isk is not the primary income of incursions. And I'd be surprised if they have tens of thousands of people in WH. So WH income needs nerfing as well obviously?
High sec is by no means the largest income in the game. Despite having the most people.


Yes, wormholes have much higher population than incursion communities, and that population consists of living corporations and alliances exposing all their assets to risk, all the time. Wormhole income is balanced by the highest risk level in EVE.

To reach Incursion-level income in wormholes, you need to run capital escalations in C5 and C6. With all the investments, effort and prerequisites in order to maintain a capital fleet in deep wormhole space. You also get 0 ISK from killing tens of thousands of sleepers. Everything has to looted and salvaged and sold in empire space.

If LP isn't a significant buff, then the direct payouts are too high.


To add to this...C5/C6 capital escalation ISK is only really good for groups of 4-5 people. Anything over those numbers and the split in value shifts the "best place to make ISK" right back to HS.....incursions (followed by 00 anoms and then L4). That's the part that the overwhelming majority of people who don't live in wspace do not realize. ISK in wormholes (even the big ones) isn't something that makes everyone rich. Only a very small number of people at a time can pull that level of income. And they must risk upwards of 10-15b each and every time to do so. This can only be done once per day per site for a max of 3 days. After that, those anoms are gone and there might be days between others appearing. No anoms in home system means no big ISK potentials and therefore it becomes, once again, easier and more efficient to make ISK in HS....incursions or 00 anoms or L4s (for those who are only there to farm).

I'm right behind you
Tennej
LoTax POCO Company of HiSEC
#69 - 2014-10-21 21:04:37 UTC
Bl1SkR1N wrote:
As title says, they are source of tons of easy and safe isk. Probably one of the main factors for plex price going so high. Bring some trade-off into them. Isn't that how eve should be?


Plex is so high because of more and more introduced uses for it by CCP causing a much higher demand. Dual character training damn near doubled Plex prices by itself. It has nothing to do with incursions. Get your head out of the clouds.

You Miners think you have it so damn tough.  When I first started playing we didnt even have mining lasers.  You had to fly close to an asteroid.....pop a hatch and gnaw at it with your teeth.   - Bitter Vet
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#70 - 2014-10-21 21:12:49 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Another nerf incursions thread? Did they remove the search function over the weekend?

I have no problem with people earning isk by running sites in highly organized fleets. Isn't that the exact same argument nullsec use for the vast riches they gather out in lawless space?

Argument would be that there is no way to interrupt them.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2014-10-21 21:19:26 UTC
Arya Regnar wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Another nerf incursions thread? Did they remove the search function over the weekend?

I have no problem with people earning isk by running sites in highly organized fleets. Isn't that the exact same argument nullsec use for the vast riches they gather out in lawless space?

Argument would be that there is no way to interrupt them.


A few cheap frigates with ECM would ruin their day in short order I would think, especially if you disrupt/gank the logi ships
Spacemover
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#72 - 2014-10-21 21:46:30 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
Short version: Nope

Longer version: Sometimes I think others who make isk try to distract with 'look over there' and incursions often seem to be the best scape goats. Not sure why, as while in incursion fleets and talking to various members of the community I have met lost of people using incursions to fund their Pvp or buy ships to lose in huge battles.

Some do it because they actually like being part of a community where you don't HAVE to obey day to day orders or calls to arms, just show up and be in a decently fitted ship.

I do incursions (logi most times) to chat with folks and touch base. More tyhan one groups make me feel welcome every time I show up and that makes for a nice feeling.

So, no. I will not put this in my book nor support it in council and will argue against it if it is brought up by someone else.

nope

m


Sir you´ve just saved yourself my vote in next csm. Not because of incursions only but because you play the game right. it´s to be played to have fun, shooting red crosses solo isn´t, there are games out there where you can shoot funier things solo.

as much as i like null sometimes, i just like my incursiontime more as logi. you are not firsttarget in every combat, you can just rep people back up, you don´t need to worry about killmails and you are on ts with 20-40 people and have fun.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#73 - 2014-10-21 22:11:00 UTC
King Fu Hostile wrote:


Yes, wormholes have much higher population than incursion communities, and that population consists of living corporations and alliances exposing all their assets to risk, all the time. Wormhole income is balanced by the highest risk level in EVE.

To reach Incursion-level income in wormholes, you need to run capital escalations in C5 and C6. With all the investments, effort and prerequisites in order to maintain a capital fleet in deep wormhole space. You also get 0 ISK from killing tens of thousands of sleepers. Everything has to looted and salvaged and sold in empire space.

If LP isn't a significant buff, then the direct payouts are too high.


Undocking in EVE is risk. Everything from there is relative risk to how you mitigate those risks. Anyone undocking in highsec is placing their assets at risk.
Your argument about escalations is wrong btw, because incursions don't actually turn the profits you think they do, because you fail to account for all the 'no incursion' & 'waiting for fleet' time for a start. But is also far more a function of low end (C1 & 2 especially) WH's making next to nothing, rather than incursions making too much.
And present no factual basis for WHs having a vastly higher population than incursions. You simply assert it since it supports your argument.

As for the amount of investment, trust me, an HQ incursion fleet has more value in it than your escalation fleet does. So trying to say you should earn based on how much your ships cost is a terrible argument also.

And yes, you get 0 direct isk. WH's are still EVE's second biggest isk faucet from NPC sell orders once you ship it, not to mention all the other area's of income a WH creates.

None of this means that high end WH's earn too much of course. My comparison to WH's and should they be nerfed was more presenting how silly it is to say 'it's not fair a group of people can actually earn an income by co-operative gameplay'
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#74 - 2014-10-21 22:12:42 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Arya Regnar wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Another nerf incursions thread? Did they remove the search function over the weekend?

I have no problem with people earning isk by running sites in highly organized fleets. Isn't that the exact same argument nullsec use for the vast riches they gather out in lawless space?

Argument would be that there is no way to interrupt them.


A few cheap frigates with ECM would ruin their day in short order I would think, especially if you disrupt/gank the logi ships

Except that we (I speak, in my hubris, for incursion FCs here) have done all we can to make our fleets ECM and gank resistant. A large portion of that is situational awareness at the FC level, and another portion is the large amount of work that goes into the fittings and doctrines.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#75 - 2014-10-21 22:22:42 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Arya Regnar wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Another nerf incursions thread? Did they remove the search function over the weekend?

I have no problem with people earning isk by running sites in highly organized fleets. Isn't that the exact same argument nullsec use for the vast riches they gather out in lawless space?

Argument would be that there is no way to interrupt them.


A few cheap frigates with ECM would ruin their day in short order I would think, especially if you disrupt/gank the logi ships

Except that we (I speak, in my hubris, for incursion FCs here) have done all we can to make our fleets ECM and gank resistant. A large portion of that is situational awareness at the FC level, and another portion is the large amount of work that goes into the fittings and doctrines.


Tornadoes work fine for ganking. The gankers are just too cheap/lazy to organize it. Much easier to hit AFK haulers/miners instead, and then complain on the forums that incursion fleets are somehow gank proof.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#76 - 2014-10-22 03:25:16 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Arya Regnar wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Another nerf incursions thread? Did they remove the search function over the weekend?

I have no problem with people earning isk by running sites in highly organized fleets. Isn't that the exact same argument nullsec use for the vast riches they gather out in lawless space?

Argument would be that there is no way to interrupt them.


A few cheap frigates with ECM would ruin their day in short order I would think, especially if you disrupt/gank the logi ships

Except that we (I speak, in my hubris, for incursion FCs here) have done all we can to make our fleets ECM and gank resistant. A large portion of that is situational awareness at the FC level, and another portion is the large amount of work that goes into the fittings and doctrines.


Tornadoes work fine for ganking. The gankers are just too cheap/lazy to organize it. Much easier to hit AFK haulers/miners instead, and then complain on the forums that incursion fleets are somehow gank proof.


Again, I would rather submit that with the tornado fleets so far used, it has come down to a matter of skill and situational awareness. Its not that they are too cheap and lazy to organize it, it is that we have worked out our own counters to these situations well in advance, as some of the FCs (on other toons, to preserve their integrity) either have been or actively are suicide gankers and thus know their TTPs (tactics, techniques and procedures)

I have personally been targeted by, and shot at least 3 sets of tornados since the start of the year, and have lost precisely no ships to this because I have had my tank on and overheated when the alpha hit, and my logi knew to hold reps until I took the alpha the one time I was on grid with a fleet.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#77 - 2014-10-22 03:48:30 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:


Tornadoes work fine for ganking. The gankers are just too cheap/lazy to organize it. Much easier to hit AFK haulers/miners instead, and then complain on the forums that incursion fleets are somehow gank proof.


We don't care if incursion runners are hard to gank. If the haulers/miners acutally used their heads and followed the advice we have been giving them they would also be hard to gank.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#78 - 2014-10-22 04:22:28 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:


Tornadoes work fine for ganking. The gankers are just too cheap/lazy to organize it. Much easier to hit AFK haulers/miners instead, and then complain on the forums that incursion fleets are somehow gank proof.


We don't care if incursion runners are hard to gank. If the haulers/miners acutally used their heads and followed the advice we have been giving them they would also be hard to gank.


Tank the freighter, and the odds of it being popped by miniluv go WAY down unless you fill it to the brim with shinies against other suggestions.

Fit tank and fly in mining fleets that have a second booster or sacrifice a link on the orca you already use to boost and CODE. just is just gonna expLODE.

Be at your keyboard, paying attention, thermo 1 trained, and have something resembling tank and you probably can get out safely in highsec just by pre-aligning at the smallest increment you can click above 0m/s and turning on and over heating the tank when they lock you up.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#79 - 2014-10-22 06:45:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
baltec1 wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:


Tornadoes work fine for ganking. The gankers are just too cheap/lazy to organize it. Much easier to hit AFK haulers/miners instead, and then complain on the forums that incursion fleets are somehow gank proof.


We don't care if incursion runners are hard to gank. If the haulers/miners acutally used their heads and followed the advice we have been giving them they would also be hard to gank.


By that you mean that miners are not allowed to use Mackinaws or Hulks anymore, because they are signs of AFK-ish gameplay, and everyone ought to use Skiffs? Or In case of freighters, if I autopilot, I use 3 cargo expanders, to transport a 900k m³ courier, I automatically qualify as AFK and botting? Roll

There certainly are players who make very ... unfortunate decisions (I wonder which daft PVPer suggested Nanofibers on freighters, this person really should be shot on sight), but in my experience, Elite PVPers and Elite PVP-aspirant players usually tar all haulers and all miners with the same brush. While we are required to differentiate, they aren't to be hold to the same standards.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#80 - 2014-10-22 06:57:43 UTC
The only incursion nerf that Incursions need is the ability to keep motherships alive ala remote repping.

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!