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Nerf high sec incursions

First post
Author
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#41 - 2014-10-21 00:36:16 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:


Except these players enjoy this aspect of the game and who is to say how to play Eve 'right' or 'wrong'? If they enjoy the game then they re playing it 'right' for them. If you are the kind of player who dislikes it then excersize your right to disrupt them. Many hisec players see moongoo as a massive isk faucet under the control of very few entities. Each area has its own isk generation which works best in fleet, incursions in hi, FW in lo and pretty much everything in null inside your safe areas. The nulsec poor woes ring hollow to many hi/losec players since no other area in Eve generates enough isk to throw 10's of titans into a battle without concern for the cost. Instead of people complaining about others gamestyles they should concentrate on having fun in their own I think...


You have obviously completely missed the point of Eve, which is to make highsec completely unlivable through suicide ganking, PvE nerfs, etc.... to force everyone into the wonderful blue nullsec donut. Because only that is "elite PvP" and "non-toxic play."
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#42 - 2014-10-21 02:32:42 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Says the alliance who's Elite PVPing in High sec instead of more dangerous areas of space. Roll Makes me wonder what's more toxic for the game: people who enjoy it in High sec or people who constantly pull out content from those areas of space, which are constantly craving for it and constantly losing more content and where people are constantly complaining that High sec has too much content.

You seam to divert a bit from the topic, let me bring you back on track.

Highsec is actually the space where the game mechanics are all stacked in favor of the victim and against the aggressor. Nullsec on the other hand is a leveled playing field where you can shoot everyone without automatic NPC interference. So from a pirates point of view Highsec is the more dangerous space but it also has a lot more of careless valuable targets because of that fact.

Your picture of the "more dangerous area" may be true for the PvE enthusiasts who get more difficult targets, a lot more risk to get jumped and mildly more ISK compared to the additional risk they take.

Incursions are a special snowflake in the PvE landscape of EVE. In their wake they bring a new type of player who is only concerned with grinding more ISK (even more so than the common Highsec miner) while completely ignoring the sandbox aspect of EVE while always crying for more isolation. They play EVE like a WOW clone and they constantly demand to make all of EVE more like WOW. If EVE would become a WOW clone it would surely die like all the WOW clones.

They don't only think like WOW players, they also act like them. The same immature and toxic behavior you usually encounter in this kind of repetitive grind fests that seam to trap kids an mass with their optimized reward response mechanics. One of the big selling points of EVE for me at least was that the game was almost free from this type of players. And look where we are today, I just say Beers Veldspar, need I say more?

This new toxic player can only thrive in Highsec, as this is the only place where he can ignore the sandbox most of the time and isolate themselves in their grind centered abomination of EVE gameplay. And that's why Highsec incursions have to go.


1.: Uhm, no. Most incursioners don't just bear it up all day evrry day. Incursion players (by and large) run incursions to fund more expensive PVP habits than the average player, without alliance or corp level SRPs covering them, or are using incursion isk to plex and then go do something else.

2: Now, I could sort of see your point re: wow clones if there was truely a single "best" way to run this stuff. As even in shiny communities who can all crunch the same fairly large set of math, opinions differ widely on what to do and how to do it, I'm not sure we can agree on anything like this. While some of us do like the lovely benefits of going officer, it is done mostly by FCs and rich pilots who are actual grinding machines.

3: I can sort of see your point about grind fest. Now, how is this different from the mission blitzers or the anom runners that provide most of the isk for the line members in almost every other type of space, other than in being a co-operative and slightly faster way of attaining said isk.

4: Incursions doesn't ignore the rest of the sandbox, it is in fact one of the cross-roads of the sandbox, in which you can hear pilots whose mains are in different alliances call each other spurglords and worse daily. Almost everyone has some other activity that the isk ends up funding after they get a reasonable ship.

5: I haven't heard a single call to nerf or protect incursion runners further in multiple months, yet I hear this rallying cry almost monthly, mostly from people who haven't crunched a single number, but prefer to whine because they can't gank reasonably tough targets that move around, are at their keyboard and which have intelligent reps available.

6: Also haven't heard a single cry from someone inside incursions to make EVE more WOW like. Lots of whackadoodles from l4s and other parts of carebear land, but relatively few if any incursion runners do so.

7: Calling for nerfs on a medium large community of a style which is almost unique to Incursions (NPSI PvP fleets are the only rough equivalent) simply because you don't like them making money quicker than you at higher risk, both by flying shiny ships in a limited area where those wishing to PVP us can come try their hand (seriously code, waiting for a legitimate threat to our fleets. Bring your A game, you know where we are, you know we're shiny, and you know most of the fits) , and from fairly tough rats (our frigates hit like your battleships for anyone but WH dwellers, and have similar EHP) is what is actually toxic.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#43 - 2014-10-21 04:23:53 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Bullet Therapist wrote:


I'd also like to point out that what makes isk for the alliance doesn't always make isk for the alliance members. Moon mining, for instance, is a tremendous source of isk, but it's isk for the alliance. Anyhow, I don't think that reasonable people really care about people making isk in incursions, more that people who risk their assets should have better access to isk.


Fair enough. Then your #1 agenda item should be a Sherman Act anti-monopolization action against the CFC, et al., where you move to break up the absurdly wealthy nullsec power blocks and restrict them to 50 members each. Then, once the blue donut is gone, you might actually inject some real risk into nullsec to balance out the higher reward level. Ditto for wormholers. Next you can act against the scammers and market manipulators, who make a lot more isk with less risk than incursion runners do. Next you can nerf all the freighter suicide gank fleets, who also make more isk with less risk.

After you do all that, then come talk to me about incursion runners. Risk/reward and all.


Why do you even play this game? Everything that makes it different to everything else out there you want to remove.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#44 - 2014-10-21 04:35:01 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:


Except these players enjoy this aspect of the game and who is to say how to play Eve 'right' or 'wrong'? If they enjoy the game then they re playing it 'right' for them. If you are the kind of player who dislikes it then excersize your right to disrupt them. Many hisec players see moongoo as a massive isk faucet under the control of very few entities. Each area has its own isk generation which works best in fleet, incursions in hi, FW in lo and pretty much everything in null inside your safe areas. The nulsec poor woes ring hollow to many hi/losec players since no other area in Eve generates enough isk to throw 10's of titans into a battle without concern for the cost. Instead of people complaining about others gamestyles they should concentrate on having fun in their own I think...


Best way to earn isk in low is solo running FW missions in a bomber. Null sec isk generation from anoms (the primary pve content in sov null) is less than can be earned in level 4 missions in high sec and tops out at around 10 mil higher than blitzing level 3 missions in high sec. Coupled with this is the fact that most null systems have poor to godawful truesec and don't get close to high sec mission income and can only support at best 10 people per system and at worst 4-6.

Right now you earn more isk in high sec than in null with the bonus of near perfect safety.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#45 - 2014-10-21 05:35:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevyn Auscent
baltec1 wrote:


Best way to earn isk in low is solo running FW missions in a bomber. Null sec isk generation from anoms (the primary pve content in sov null) is less than can be earned in level 4 missions in high sec and tops out at around 10 mil higher than blitzing level 3 missions in high sec. Coupled with this is the fact that most null systems have poor to godawful truesec and don't get close to high sec mission income and can only support at best 10 people per system and at worst 4-6.

Right now you earn more isk in high sec than in null with the bonus of near perfect safety.

Only because you take the highest income ever achieved in high and the low average of null and assume that no-one ever beats the average in null, and that everyone in high achieves the mythical perfect income.
Incursions do not scale infinitely. If we assume 100 mil/hour then only 70 people can be making that at once from incursions. Based on CCP's released Isk faucet figures. If you want to claim a higher figure per hour, then less people make it.
Given how many people take part in Incursions, your figures are obviously mythical, bullshit and designed purely to support your argument in every thread for high sec nerfs.

And ignore all the things that actually result in less income.
Even SOE missions don't scale perfectly as beyond about 600 people at once (Now we have 3 systems) Tidi starts to kick in. Lowering income.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#46 - 2014-10-21 05:58:41 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


Best way to earn isk in low is solo running FW missions in a bomber. Null sec isk generation from anoms (the primary pve content in sov null) is less than can be earned in level 4 missions in high sec and tops out at around 10 mil higher than blitzing level 3 missions in high sec. Coupled with this is the fact that most null systems have poor to godawful truesec and don't get close to high sec mission income and can only support at best 10 people per system and at worst 4-6.

Right now you earn more isk in high sec than in null with the bonus of near perfect safety.

Only because you take the highest income ever achieved in high and the low average of null and assume that no-one ever beats the average in null, and that everyone in high achieves the mythical perfect income.
Incursions do not scale infinitely. If we assume 100 mil/hour then only 70 people can be making that at once from incursions. Based on CCP's released Isk faucet figures. If you want to claim a higher figure per hour, then less people make it.
Given how many people take part in Incursions, your figures are obviously mythical, bullshit and designed purely to support your argument in every thread for high sec nerfs.

And ignore all the things that actually result in less income.
Even SOE missions don't scale perfectly as beyond about 600 people at once (Now we have 3 systems) Tidi starts to kick in. Lowering income.


I take the highest income for all areas. If you want me to post average earnings for null you are looking at 60 mil rather than 90 per hour. But you have already been told this several times.

Thing is, I'm not looking to nerf incursions but to fix the big issues with the way null income works.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#47 - 2014-10-21 06:05:25 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


I take the highest income for all areas. If you want me to post average earnings for null you are looking at 60 mil rather than 90 per hour. But you have already been told this several times.

Thing is, I'm not looking to nerf incursions but to fix the big issues with the way null income works.

Except the gross income figures put lie to your constant claims about null not earning more than high. As do many individual people. Quite frankly your methods for deriving incomes are badly flawed.

That said. I do agree with you that Null has income issues, I'm on board with a vastly higher density being possible in Null, but you keep trying to claim that because you don't use the fastest ship for actual income in Null in order to mitigate risk, that guy who uses an officer fit Vindi in high is making too much money. And that keeps throwing your analysis way out. Use scientific method, eliminate the discrepancies down to a minimal number of variables and you get a limited 50 mil/hour income in high (Subject to the Tidi limit of SOE systems) with 30/hour or so after them. Vs your 60/90 mil incomes you are using as your Null figures. Since eliminating variables means T2 fit Ishtar in both Null & High.
Not Officer fit Vindi/Marauder vs T2 Ishtar.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#48 - 2014-10-21 06:14:52 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


I take the highest income for all areas. If you want me to post average earnings for null you are looking at 60 mil rather than 90 per hour. But you have already been told this several times.

Thing is, I'm not looking to nerf incursions but to fix the big issues with the way null income works.

Except the gross income figures put lie to your constant claims about null not earning more than high. As do many individual people. Quite frankly your methods for deriving incomes are badly flawed.

That said. I do agree with you that Null has income issues, I'm on board with a vastly higher density being possible in Null, but you keep trying to claim that because you don't use the fastest ship for actual income in Null in order to mitigate risk, that guy who uses an officer fit Vindi in high is making too much money. And that keeps throwing your analysis way out. Use scientific method, eliminate the discrepancies down to a minimal number of variables and you get a limited 50 mil/hour income in high (Subject to the Tidi limit of SOE systems) with 30/hour or so after them. Vs your 60/90 mil incomes you are using as your Null figures. Since eliminating variables means T2 fit Ishtar in both Null & High.
Not Officer fit Vindi/Marauder vs T2 Ishtar.


That 90 mil figure is done in a multi billion isk warp speed rigged vindi running anoms with no interuptions in the best truesec system. In high sec it has been shown that a mach running level 3 mission will net 80 mil/hr using a t2 fit. For level 4s a t2 fit marauder will net over 100 mil/hr blitzing. To date I have never encountered tidi in a mission system and LP conversions for SOE have remained stable for years. The numbers are all correct and its not hard to get them.
King Fu Hostile
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#49 - 2014-10-21 06:17:18 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Bl1SkR1N wrote:
As title says, they are source of tons of easy and safe isk. Probably one of the main factors for plex price going so high. Bring some trade-off into them. Isn't that how eve should be?


That's a pretty funny argument..... Incursions (which produce less than 1/3 of the ISK bounties do) are responsible for Plex inflation. Let's try to reason this one out.....imagine incursions really were this massive ISK faucet that was flooding Eve with easy ISK....so what would we expect? Plex inflation? Sure. How about ships/mods? Oh wait, they would need to inflate by the EXACT SAME AMOUNT AS PLEX DOES because resources are just as scarce as they used to be.

Now let's see what is actually happening....Plex inflating...yep....ships/mods? Nope, in fact they are DEFLATING. Conclusion - The problem isn't ISK faucets - the problem is too much/too easy mining flooding eve with cheap resources which is inflating Plex while deflating ships/mods. So the OP's argument is a giant fail.

Which gets us to the real topic here - the hatred the nullsec "elite pvp" folks have towards collaborative and profitable PvE in highsec. The idea that people can actually work together in Eve to do PvE, and not to shoot other players, is just agonizing to a lot o folks. Apparently any playstyle that doesn't revolve around tears/carnage/hurting people is somehow illegitimate and needs to be nerfed.

If anything incursions, which are one of the few in game activities that don't reward dysfunctional and anti-social behavior, should get a big buff, with the nerf bat hitting suicide ganking, mining, scamming, etc....

Incursions are already dangerous enough with the massive dps on grid and incursion ships exploding right and left, not to mention all the time spent moving, the early mom popping, and the time waiting to get a fleet up. So no, nerfs are definitely not needed, but buffs surely are.


There you go, another ********, greedy incursion ****.

HIghsec Incursions "only produce 33% of all ISK in game"? Yes, it's true, but when less than 1% of the population runs them, and they receive LP on top of direct payouts, they seriously do need nerfing.

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#50 - 2014-10-21 06:24:37 UTC
King Fu Hostile wrote:


There you go, another ********, greedy incursion ****.

HIghsec Incursions "only produce 33% of all ISK in game"? Yes, it's true, but when less than 1% of the population runs them, and they receive LP on top of direct payouts, they seriously do need nerfing.


Actually if you want to count 'all isk in game' they produce about 10%.
And given most of the community channels have hundreds of people in channel even in the dead times.... I suspect there are thousands of active players who are involved in incursions.
The LP is also not a significant buff to incursion incomes.

WH's produce about double the isk Incursions do, and isk is not the primary income of incursions. And I'd be surprised if they have tens of thousands of people in WH. So WH income needs nerfing as well obviously?
High sec is by no means the largest income in the game. Despite having the most people.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#51 - 2014-10-21 06:27:41 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
King Fu Hostile wrote:


There you go, another ********, greedy incursion ****.

HIghsec Incursions "only produce 33% of all ISK in game"? Yes, it's true, but when less than 1% of the population runs them, and they receive LP on top of direct payouts, they seriously do need nerfing.


Actually if you want to count 'all isk in game' they produce about 10%.
And given most of the community channels have hundreds of people in channel even in the dead times.... I suspect there are thousands of active players who are involved in incursions.
The LP is also not a significant buff to incursion incomes.

WH's produce about double the isk Incursions do, and isk is not the primary income of incursions. And I'd be surprised if they have tens of thousands of people in WH. So WH income needs nerfing as well obviously?
High sec is by no means the largest income in the game. Despite having the most people.


Its higher income than null sec offers at the moment.
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#52 - 2014-10-21 06:34:52 UTC
Bl1SkR1N wrote:
As title says, they are source of tons of easy and safe isk.


I love how people assume incursions are safe isk. It's like the rats can't kill your ship or something. Personally I think it's funny that in this game people only view unsafe sources of isk when their primary threat is PVP. The risk is still there from the PVE rats in the incursion sites. Just imagine if it took logi support to go ratting in battleships in nul.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.

Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2014-10-21 07:41:48 UTC
Short version: Nope

Longer version: Sometimes I think others who make isk try to distract with 'look over there' and incursions often seem to be the best scape goats. Not sure why, as while in incursion fleets and talking to various members of the community I have met lost of people using incursions to fund their Pvp or buy ships to lose in huge battles.

Some do it because they actually like being part of a community where you don't HAVE to obey day to day orders or calls to arms, just show up and be in a decently fitted ship.

I do incursions (logi most times) to chat with folks and touch base. More tyhan one groups make me feel welcome every time I show up and that makes for a nice feeling.

So, no. I will not put this in my book nor support it in council and will argue against it if it is brought up by someone else.

nope

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)

Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#54 - 2014-10-21 07:51:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Veers Belvar
baltec1 wrote:


Why do you even play this game? Everything that makes it different to everything else out there you want to remove.


I enjoy running incursions. I enjoy collaborative PvE. I like the player driven economy. And I especially enjoy the Code/Goon rage from you and others about how incursion runners can successfully play this game collaborative PvE style, without trying to blow up other players and tear harvest, and the concomittant screams for nerfs to end that. If you really think incursion rewards are so lucrative then a) run them yourself - we take everyone, even Goons! or b) set up a real suicide gank fleet to materially increase the risk. Harder than shooting AFK miners and haulers? Sure. But hey, it would be a good challenge for Code/Goons for once.

I realize that you want to buff nullsec income rather than nerf incursions, so consider this aimed at OP, not you.

As far as buffing nullsec, I think the key there is to get the money away from the alliances and into the pockets of the individual players. I could get behind buffed payouts in null as long as steps were taken to curtail AFK/multiboxing activity. I'm fine with people who are actually at the keyboard, exerting effort, and incurring risk earning decent rewards. I don't think the same should apply to AFK miners, AFK ratters, and AFK mission runners (this goes for highsec too).
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2014-10-21 08:12:33 UTC
FireFrenzy wrote:
You mean other then incursion ships costing several billion isk each exploding every day because even with the highly well sorted fleets with grade A logi pilots and baller FCs who have their running down to a science?

Newbie incursion pilots are blowing up every day. Experienced incursion runners make almost all profit, spending only a small fraction of their proceeds on replacing ships.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2014-10-21 08:17:35 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
People run incursions because they are FUN, not because it's the max isk/hour or any nonsense like that.
No PVE in EVE is fun after you've done it several dozen or hundred times. People run highsec incursions because they are safe in HIGHSEC.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#57 - 2014-10-21 08:21:01 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
People run incursions because they are FUN, not because it's the max isk/hour or any nonsense like that.
No PVE in EVE is fun after you've done it several dozen or hundred times. People run highsec incursions because they are safe in HIGHSEC.


WRONG. Incursions are FUN, even 300 times later. Why? Because: Contests, pilot errors, close calls, ships blowing up, drama, teamwork, social interaction etc.... Most PvE in Eve is mindnumbingly boring - I can barely stay awake running L4s. HQ Incursions - think Preloaded TCRC's are legitimately exciting and fun, and a decent challenge to boot. And it's not just new players losing ships, a slow broadcast here, a distracted or inexperienced logi there, and suddenly real expensive ships start xploding.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#58 - 2014-10-21 08:22:23 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
People run incursions because they are FUN, not because it's the max isk/hour or any nonsense like that.
No PVE in EVE is fun after you've done it several dozen or hundred times. People run highsec incursions because they are safe in HIGHSEC.


Then you are doing it wrong. My PVE is still a lot of fun, even after many many DED plexes, anoms, missions, data/relic sites. I like it a lot (though it could be improved and expanded upon many cases). It will not get boring ever for me in most cases because I fly it inefficiently. I don't use the most perfect ship for the task, I use ships that can die to NPC and that do die to NPC. I live sort of on the edge, where mistakes are made and can cost me my ship. That keeps the PVE fun and engaging for me.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2014-10-21 08:22:36 UTC
You sound like you would love playing in nullsec. Try it out sometime. It's just like what you've described, only MUCH moreso than incursions in highsec.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#60 - 2014-10-21 08:24:54 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
You sound like you would love playing in nullsec. Try it out sometime. It's just like what you've described, only MUCH moreso than incursions in highsec.


Oh ya....nullsec is a real thriller. Either go solo and get bubbled on a gate and instakilled, or go with a fleet and watch everyone dock up and then need to arrange a contrived fleet fight. It's a real hub of entertainment and activity.