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[Phoebe] Stealth Bombers

First post First post First post
Author
Elyas Crux
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#401 - 2014-10-17 00:56:42 UTC
I think if something is able to decloak me I should be able to see it, or it shouldn't be able to decloak me.
If this change goes ahead players cannot fly cloaked ships with any sort of teamwork. If a group of players all warp to a point RNGesus decides where they land on grid so decloaking is inevitable.
There are no tools in game to allow players to coordinate and be on grid together while remaining cloaked.
To remain useful all cloaked ships would have to be used for solo playing only and not in fleet with any other ship (besides being a warp in, yay participation).
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#402 - 2014-10-17 01:04:17 UTC
Elyas Crux wrote:
I think if something is able to decloak me I should be able to see it, or it shouldn't be able to decloak me.
If this change goes ahead players cannot fly cloaked ships with any sort of teamwork. If a group of players all warp to a point RNGesus decides where they land on grid so decloaking is inevitable.
There are no tools in game to allow players to coordinate and be on grid together while remaining cloaked.
To remain useful all cloaked ships would have to be used for solo playing only and not in fleet with any other ship (besides being a warp in, yay participation).


We managed to do this very thing before, we will manage to do it again.
Momiji Sakora
Omni Galactic
Central Omni Galactic Group
#403 - 2014-10-17 01:40:35 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
These changes are intended to make it easier for fleets to counter bombers (whether the bombers are isboxed or not) and to make organization of characters valuable again for bombing. Organization of pilots is made easier in a lot of ways with isboxer, but that has always been true and isn't some new phenomenon coming from these changes.

We'll be watching these changes very carefully on SISI, and if this hits bombers too hard we can easily make adjustments. We do not want to "headshot" bombers, and we don't currently believe that these changes make them unviable.

I think some people came into this thread expecting it to be something completely different, and are therefore disappointed.

If you want to discuss our policies surrounding isboxer that is fine, but there are other threads for that.


ISBoxing or not, the cloak nerf affects and nerfs more than just the bombers, and affects them all negatively. I think your balance pass works right up until that point. Just my thought on the matter I guess.

I can send you plenty of videos of bombing ops going wrong if you need evidence that they don't really need nerfing themselves, but the ways to defend against them need to be buffed.
Ghurthe
KRH Mining
#404 - 2014-10-17 01:40:49 UTC
Love the changes, everything except the 2km cloak thing.

That just makes ISboxing bombing runs super powerful while normal runs become awful.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#405 - 2014-10-17 01:53:40 UTC
Momiji Sakora wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
These changes are intended to make it easier for fleets to counter bombers (whether the bombers are isboxed or not) and to make organization of characters valuable again for bombing. Organization of pilots is made easier in a lot of ways with isboxer, but that has always been true and isn't some new phenomenon coming from these changes.

We'll be watching these changes very carefully on SISI, and if this hits bombers too hard we can easily make adjustments. We do not want to "headshot" bombers, and we don't currently believe that these changes make them unviable.

I think some people came into this thread expecting it to be something completely different, and are therefore disappointed.

If you want to discuss our policies surrounding isboxer that is fine, but there are other threads for that.


ISBoxing or not, the cloak nerf affects and nerfs more than just the bombers, and affects them all negatively. I think your balance pass works right up until that point. Just my thought on the matter I guess.

I can send you plenty of videos of bombing ops going wrong if you need evidence that they don't really need nerfing themselves, but the ways to defend against them need to be buffed.


If everything else needs to be buffed to balance one thing then the one thing needs to be nerfed.
Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#406 - 2014-10-17 02:25:29 UTC
Okay, all caught up again.

Let me show you my notes . . .

Decloaking is the #1 issue. Solutions include: not doing it, formation warping, not applicable to people in fleet, ability to 'see' cloaked people in your fleet.

The 12sec rule allows a prepared fleet to have the instacanes and counter. Not overly hated.

The speed and agility and warp speed make the bomber feel like a pig, a destroyer pig. If it is a frigate it should move like a frigate.

A few voices in the wilderness are pointing out that Bombers are not the only cloakies. WH and Blops are being hit with the same bat as collateral damage.

There is an issue that bombers drive null doctrine towards armor. That may be and if bombers become more rare then this may drift back.

Those who argue that bombers are the counter to n+1 . . . really? The big groups are precluded from flying them and I wasn't told? Bombers are a way to make a fleet nervous and allows the little guy to punch above his weight, agreed. But do not try to tell me that the blobs cannot just as easily field the bombers

Note, I am not discussing ISBoxer, here. Changes to stealth, yes.

That do a decent summation?

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)

Yi Hyori
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#407 - 2014-10-17 02:37:26 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
Okay, all caught up again.

Let me show you my notes . . .

Decloaking is the #1 issue. Solutions include: not doing it, formation warping, not applicable to people in fleet, ability to 'see' cloaked people in your fleet.

The 12sec rule allows a prepared fleet to have the instacanes and counter. Not overly hated.

The speed and agility and warp speed make the bomber feel like a pig, a destroyer pig. If it is a frigate it should move like a frigate.

A few voices in the wilderness are pointing out that Bombers are not the only cloakies. WH and Blops are being hit with the same bat as collateral damage.

There is an issue that bombers drive null doctrine towards armor. That may be and if bombers become more rare then this may drift back.

Those who argue that bombers are the counter to n+1 . . . really? The big groups are precluded from flying them and I wasn't told? Bombers are a way to make a fleet nervous and allows the little guy to punch above his weight, agreed. But do not try to tell me that the blobs cannot just as easily field the bombers

Note, I am not discussing ISBoxer, here. Changes to stealth, yes.

That do a decent summation?

m



Pretty good summation.
I would like to add that a potential change to bomb damage mechanics may help balance bomb damage. Basing bomb damage by distance to blast center and or applying explosion velocity to bombs similar to missile damage application.

the addition of ehp to bombers at the cost of sig radius is a slap to the face. slowing bomber align and slowing warp speed, is understandable, but also slapping a sig penalty is extremely heavy handed.
PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
#408 - 2014-10-17 02:38:32 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:


Note, I am not discussing ISBoxer, here. Changes to stealth, yes.

That do a decent summation?

m

Maybe do your job and raise the issue most represented on each page, every page of this thread? Or don't. Whatever.
PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
#409 - 2014-10-17 02:49:50 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:

Note, I am not discussing ISBoxer, here.

That do a decent summation?

m

Let me elaborate on my previous post a bit: it's pretty goddam clear both from every page of this thread and the reddit thread that the overwhelming consensus of the player base is that isboxed bombers are the problem, doubly so because regular bombing fleets have been marginalized to near obscurity.

This is, overwhelmingly, the position of the player base. On every forum, from Eve-O, to reddit, to failheap and on every news site, from TMC to EN24. Your job is to represent the community, not just to tell ccp what it wants to hear. Do your goddam job, or step aside for someone that will.
Seraph IX Basarab
Outer Path
The Haggis Empire
#410 - 2014-10-17 03:01:02 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
Okay, all caught up again.

Let me show you my notes . . .

Decloaking is the #1 issue. Solutions include: not doing it, formation warping, not applicable to people in fleet, ability to 'see' cloaked people in your fleet.

The 12sec rule allows a prepared fleet to have the instacanes and counter. Not overly hated.

The speed and agility and warp speed make the bomber feel like a pig, a destroyer pig. If it is a frigate it should move like a frigate.

A few voices in the wilderness are pointing out that Bombers are not the only cloakies. WH and Blops are being hit with the same bat as collateral damage.

There is an issue that bombers drive null doctrine towards armor. That may be and if bombers become more rare then this may drift back.

Those who argue that bombers are the counter to n+1 . . . really? The big groups are precluded from flying them and I wasn't told? Bombers are a way to make a fleet nervous and allows the little guy to punch above his weight, agreed. But do not try to tell me that the blobs cannot just as easily field the bombers

Note, I am not discussing ISBoxer, here. Changes to stealth, yes.

That do a decent summation?

m


(not in any order)

It isn't that bigger groups cannot use Bombers Mike, it's that there's a law of diminishing returns in play that balances out bombers extremely well. You can only drop so many bombs on a target before there's no point to do so anymore. Numbers simply give you more chances to land bombing runs this is true, but for every bomber you have in fleet, that is one possible battleship or carrier you could have had instead. So the usefulness of bombers can be expressed thus:

http://cnx.org/resources/3beb349483fab0b8a0a265ed11d36b27/normal-curve.jpg

The more bombers you have the more bombs you can drop. At it's apex you reach the maximum amount of bombers required to destroy a sub cap fleet. Anything after that not only isn't anymore effective, but because a loss to your fleet as you're taking conventional ships out of the fleet. Basic economic principle, there's no such thing as a free lunch.

Bombers didn't drive doctrines to armor. I already detailed this in my previous post when I pointed out that shield doctrines were still extremely common after the update that let cloaked bombers be within 2km of each other. The sizes of battles due to unhealthy force projection drove doctrines to armor. With so many people on field, the goal became to be as durable as you could be. The larger the battle, the less mobility plays a role in combat. Once the battles become smaller because of the limiting factor of force projection and the need to travel conventionally via gates becomes more common, you'll find shield doctrines being more common. But then again even now what are people flying? Shield Isthars and Shield Rail Tengus. So this may not even be a valid point now.

Lastly "instacanes" were viable during the entire existence of bombers and still are.
Calvyr Travonis
The Martial Virtues Foundation
#411 - 2014-10-17 03:07:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Calvyr Travonis
CCP Fozzie wrote:
These changes are intended to make it easier for fleets to counter bombers (whether the bombers are isboxed or not) and to make organization of characters valuable again for bombing. Organization of pilots is made easier in a lot of ways with isboxer, but that has always been true and isn't some new phenomenon coming from these changes.

We'll be watching these changes very carefully on SISI, and if this hits bombers too hard we can easily make adjustments. We do not want to "headshot" bombers, and we don't currently believe that these changes make them unviable.

I think some people came into this thread expecting it to be something completely different, and are therefore disappointed.

If you want to discuss our policies surrounding isboxer that is fine, but there are other threads for that.


I think that the larger problem is not how the decloaking mechanic change affects stealth bombers, but how it affects every other ship that cloaks. While the change may improve things with SBs, it is definitely going to negatively affect any pilot that flies a covert ops ships. Anywhere. Ever. Say goodbye to wormhole PvP. In fact, there are a lot of aspects of wormhole life that will be heavily impacted by this change. As if wormhole life hasn't already been made more difficult in the last month or two, now you can't even move a fleet around cloaked without broadcasting to anyone who cares to hit a d-scan that you have a fleet in their hole?!

You don't solve a problem on one hull by screwing up every other hull that uses a crucial module on the problem hull.

-EDIT-
All the other proposed changes look just fine to me and make sense, because they only affect the hull that is being targeted. Again, the problem is with the change to cloaked ships decloaking other cloaked ships because you're nerfing a lot of ships that there's nothing with as collateral.
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#412 - 2014-10-17 04:23:01 UTC
Removed some off topic posts.

ISD Dorrim Barstorlode

Senior Lead

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

Onslaughtor
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#413 - 2014-10-17 04:30:02 UTC
Please let us shoot bombs. Because 10 (12) secs to lock and shoot a bomb is totally doable especially by destroyers and AFs. This would be a good role for them in large fleets. I see no reason that this shouldn't be the case honestly. It makes more sense that the bomb should be destroyed than the bomber to mitigate damage.

Clokies decloaking others is going to be a pain for many many ships. I really hope you look at that one more carefully
HiddenPorpoise
Jarlhettur's Drop
Rote Kapelle
#414 - 2014-10-17 04:44:13 UTC
The manticore is flatly better than the nemesis.
Hal Lubbert
Body Snatchers
ZADA ALLIANCE
#415 - 2014-10-17 04:52:00 UTC
Stealth Bombers are not liked by most pilots and here is why!

Like a SNIPER, it takes time and lots more time to become a decent SB pilot and more time to prepare a good bomb run...

Most exWOW players and new EVEKiddies do not have what it takes to fly a Stealth Bomber.

So what does CCP do? ..............drum roll!

CCP make it easier to kill Stealth Bombers !! CCP calls it a REBALANCE. I call it another way to satisfy the LAZY EVE PILOTS (interceptors, frigs and other lighter ships that most jump into so they don't lose ISK)

A Large Sig Radius - OMG!
Weaker Agility - What were you thinking CCP? (Oh wait now they can be caught easier = ISK ISK LOSSES)
Lower Warp Speed - Really ?
2KM - DeCloak Your Mate - the one who you encouraged to train SB so you can go deep into enemy space with.
Slower BOMB SPEED ---- so kiddies have more time to get away !!

And you gave us more HP? really come on... the Sb is a small ship = less HP.
More cargo = more ISK to lose!

But wait for $19.95 you also get to bomb Capital ships .... call us for your USE ONLY IN MED TO LARGE FLEET OPS BONUS rebalance now!!!!
HiddenPorpoise
Jarlhettur's Drop
Rote Kapelle
#416 - 2014-10-17 05:14:59 UTC
Hal Lubbert wrote:
Most exWOW players and new EVEKiddies do not have what it takes to fly a Stealth Bomber.

You don't seem to either.
progodlegend
Syndicate Enterprise
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#417 - 2014-10-17 05:24:05 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:

Those who argue that bombers are the counter to n+1 . . . really? The big groups are precluded from flying them and I wasn't told? Bombers are a way to make a fleet nervous and allows the little guy to punch above his weight, agreed. But do not try to tell me that the blobs cannot just as easily field the bombers


I've been bombed by a 100 man bomber fleet before. It sucks, we were low sig and armor tanked :(.
progodlegend
Syndicate Enterprise
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#418 - 2014-10-17 05:26:27 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Mike Azariah wrote:

Note, I am not discussing ISBoxer, here.

That do a decent summation?

m

Let me elaborate on my previous post a bit: it's pretty goddam clear both from every page of this thread and the reddit thread that the overwhelming consensus of the player base is that isboxed bombers are the problem, doubly so because regular bombing fleets have been marginalized to near obscurity.

This is, overwhelmingly, the position of the player base. On every forum, from Eve-O, to reddit, to failheap and on every news site, from TMC to EN24. Your job is to represent the community, not just to tell ccp what it wants to hear. Do your goddam job, or step aside for someone that will.


The CSM is doing our job, most of these changes were ideas that came directly from the CSM. In reinstatement of the "cloaked ships decloak each other" mechanic is a direct result from last year's winter summit conversation on fleet warfare balance.

Actually, half of these changes were listed in the minutes of last years winter summits I'm pretty sure. If not listed they were at least summarized or hinted at.
Sbrodor
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#419 - 2014-10-17 05:36:38 UTC
i remember the clarion call 4 video of RNK.

bomber bar corp and RnK and other pipe bomb corp are managin with skill and intelligence the technique "few vs many".

i think is a value for the EveOnline community small entity can manage the "few vs many" guerrilla techniques.

The jump fatigue (even for pipe bomb) and the destruction of SB make this a clear direction of gameplay.

But, before bomber bar corp vanish, i need to say that "making bomb run more complicated" is for challenging pilot a good trial but i will point the finger that medium 0.0 pilot have only to follow the primary and anchor.
At moment we have to co-op with clocked invisible pilot, probing in combat between 600 ships and wreck and corpse that declaock us. Find a good spot and theorize without seen if can drag from our invisible tactical, call the warp then align a invisible wing then decloakc and bomb and warp out to another good spot found before. Doing this with 3 volley and avoid every volley decloack the others is really at a difficult level unthinkable for "classic 0.0 monkey".
This is already awesome level of gameplay of eve online when the usual 0.0 blob have difficult in following a single primary and anchor once landed to fc.

I thinked a lot of Gokus but the +15 point of signature against 125mm turret is a headshot too. faster lock, faster alpha. Goku usually wipe with x-instinct and booster signature.... nowadays.. a few point of armor with a major dps incoming is brutal.

I really hope dev and ccp tried to do in a real 0.0 field a bomber wing with 2-3 volley: because i think if they doing is successful i think all this nerf will not to be made.

At least we can rethink about see other bomber in space or give us a t2 bomb with major damage and smaller area so we can think to manage smaller volley like 3-4 and using the bonus of rof (even if with nerf to align and warp speed we already land at tactical with t2 launcher almost reloaded!, no need more rof).

12 sec flight time not allow to bomb the safespot tactical when done fast probing and panic warpout ... a error of enemy fc and we cannot gain advantage :(

please don't go in blob f1 monkey direction this is a real loss of value for the community.
Kiela Cage
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#420 - 2014-10-17 05:42:10 UTC
These changes make no sense. The one unique thing a stealth bomber has the ability to do is....

DROP A BOMB! (which is only allowed in null mind you)

So now CCP is making it harder for a bomber to do the one thing that its really designed for....
Its already easy enough for the frigates to get away from a bomb if the pilot is paying attention.

12 second flight time as if 10 seconds isn't bad enough it takes a decent frigate pilot less than 2 seconds to align and jump out.

Decreased agility? with no buff to cloaked speed doesn't make any sense why am i aligning slower if I'm not moving any faster?

CPU upgrade is cool but only +7? really?

Decloaking within 2k? bye bye bombing buddy =(

The decrease in warp speed might actually be a good thing giving a bomber more time to cloak while warping before he reaches his warp to location.

All in all it seems like a step back... leaning towards larger fleet actions(of course- warmonger CCP) which is really useful for us small time players in small time corps who have never seen a fleet fight in our lifes.

At the moment i think the bomber has enough draw backs it keeps a lot of players from taking the time to train one let alone training it to be effective. now with changes like these whats the point eh?

Heres to fun! --- Cage.