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[Phoebe] Stealth Bombers

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LUMINOUS SPIRIT
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#241 - 2014-10-16 16:57:48 UTC
Ammzi wrote:
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:

You have 12 seconds to ask on comms to get bumped by 1 meter once these bombs come out. Not so hard, it takes 5 seconds to react and another 3-4 seconds for a cruiser to slam into your archon and nudge it by 1-5 meters.


^people who have no idea how hitboxes work.


No I dont, I dont play with game mechanics that require detailed knowledge of hitboxes.

I assume a bomb with radius of 1 m has to hit dead center on the ship's spatial coordinates or its a miss. As align towards a ship 100% speed, and if its not moving, launch. If it moves 1m/s or is bumped - miss. Am I wrong?
Raj Sunjime
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#242 - 2014-10-16 16:58:55 UTC
yeah, no more bombing runs!

i can go back carebearing all the day, thanks CCP!

btw can i have back my skillpoints in bomb deployment?

alas why don't trash the whole bomber class and give us back the isk?

You can keep one bomber to use the new anti capital void bomb when Pandemic drops supers in Providence... uh.. oh.. no scrap that, they won't do that anymore in November...

Sadly, you give us a new weapon when it's too late to use..

Keep going with your precious work!
Thanks.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#243 - 2014-10-16 16:59:37 UTC
Corey Edward wrote:
Fozzie, you want to know why people are mad about this? Because no one was asking for these changes. We want ishtars/drones online to come to an end. We want sov changes and force projection changes. We want isboxer to go away. We want HAC and battleship buffs to make them more viable again. I know CCP is addressing some of this, but please tell us when was there a public outcry that bombers had to be nerfed like this?

Some of these people are talking about how easy it is to bomb, but its really not. To actually get 30 people to coordinate and set up for a bomb takes a like of time and effort...and it's not a sure thing, it's very easy for bombing runs to go wrong. A couple weeks ago that Abbadon fleet that got wiped out by DBRB's gang was all over reddit and en24. Why? Because it doesn't happen every day. It was pure luck of the draw and something amazing happened.

The extra 2 seconds is a long time for bombs while it is currently still possible even now for lots of fleets to warp before they detonate. The slower align time is a huge nerf because whether you have 2k or 4k ehp, it's not going to make a difference when getting shot at. The cloaking thing is self-explanatory and is a huge nerf to all cloaked ships. Bombers are not OP. These are bad changes.


there were a good deal of posts asking for cloaks to uncloak cloaks.... but there are also a good deal asking for pvp free areas doesn't mean they are good ideas

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#244 - 2014-10-16 16:59:41 UTC
We've been :CCP:'d.... again.

As mentioned by other people, the decloaking won't stop isboxers from bombing, you are literally just screwing over individual bomber fleets.

Typical.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#245 - 2014-10-16 17:00:41 UTC
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:
Ammzi wrote:
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:

You have 12 seconds to ask on comms to get bumped by 1 meter once these bombs come out. Not so hard, it takes 5 seconds to react and another 3-4 seconds for a cruiser to slam into your archon and nudge it by 1-5 meters.


^people who have no idea how hitboxes work.


No I dont, I dont play with game mechanics that require detailed knowledge of hitboxes.

I assume a bomb with radius of 1 m has to hit dead center on the ship's spatial coordinates or its a miss. As align towards a ship 100% speed, and if its not moving, launch. If it moves 1m/s or is bumped - miss. Am I wrong?

You're wrong.

All ships have a radius attribute. A bomb just has to hit inside this radius to hit the ship. This gives you a decent amount of leeway when dumb-firing a one meter radius bomb. E.g.: a naglfar has a radius of 1700 m. It'll still require a degree of finesse, but not nearly as much as you're thinking it will.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Rammix
TheMurk
#246 - 2014-10-16 17:00:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Rammix
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Cloaked ships will once again decloak each other if they come within 2km.

I almost hate you.

CCP Fozzie wrote:

Cloaked Ships Decloaking Each Other:
We know that some players are going to be unhappy with the way this makes their gameplay more challenging, but bombing was very viable before the cloaking change and it will continue to be very viable after.

Not only bombers are affected.
This rebalance and cloaking changes are bullcrap (well, as usual). It was working well, don't fix what's not broken and not even problematic.

OpenSUSE Leap 42.1, wine >1.9

Covert cyno in highsec: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=296129&find=unread
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#247 - 2014-10-16 17:09:25 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

New Anti-Capital Void Bomb:
This is the first toe dipped in the water for smaller AoE (and therefore more aiming required) dumb weapons, which we think have a lot of potential in the future. It's a void bomb with the following stats:

Armor HP: 600
Explosion Radius: 4000
Energy Neut Amount: 15,000
Flight Time: 15s
Velocity: 2000m/s
AoE Range: One Meter

This thing is most useful against very large ships, and has to detonate right on top of a target to have any effect. We don't expect it to take the world by storm but it should be a very good option for harassing capitals, especially with small numbers of bombers.

Any chance of seeing more "interesting" bomb types along these lines? Something like this, for example:

Explosion Radius: 200
Thermal Damage: 20,000
Flight Time: 15s
Velocity: 2000m/s
AoE Range: One Meter

So a single target munition that has to be aimed and actually hit it's target, but has a relatively high damage to compensate. I'm thinking something like an "armor piercing" round (or bomb) compared to all of the "high explosive" rounds we have now.
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#248 - 2014-10-16 17:10:27 UTC
Querns wrote:


All ships have a radius attribute. A bomb just has to hit inside this radius to hit the ship. This gives you a decent amount of leeway when dumb-firing a one meter radius bomb. E.g.: a naglfar has a radius of 1700 m. It'll still require a degree of finesse, but not nearly as much as you're thinking it will.


I still think it is too complicated.

A bomb is supposed to be AoE, its its not AoE, might as well use a special torpedo with a long cooldown. Why introduce this needless complexity of having to aim a non-AoE weapon manually...?
Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#249 - 2014-10-16 17:11:12 UTC
Porucznik Borewicz wrote:
Chiimera wrote:
Great work killing bombing runs completely.

Cloaked ships decloaking other cloaked ships would be fine IF fleet members could actually tell where each other are.

+1 to this all the way! Let me see cloaked gang members in space please.


sadly this would be abused by spies in fleet guiding decloaking 'ceptors through the pack


Yes, I am following this and collecting feedback

Yes, I have ties with Bombers Bar and Spectre fleet

Yes, I think it is a bit much though I doubt it will 'kill the lifestyle' because players are too damn stubborn to die that easily

I am askign for what are the top two changes you would like dialed back or modified? If you don't want to say it here, feel free to send me an evemail

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)/¯
Black Canary Jnr
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#250 - 2014-10-16 17:11:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Black Canary Jnr
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
We've been :CCP:'d.... again.

As mentioned by other people, the decloaking won't stop isboxers from bombing, you are literally just screwing over individual bomber fleets.

Typical.


In times of nerfs you get to see the bottle of Eve players, and they are a bunch of whiners who need to HTFU and think before posting.

No-one gives a sh*t about ISBoxer. CCP has pretty much made their stance clear on this, they have seen the posts on reddit, they are fine with ISBoxer. This change was never about 'NERF ISBOXER CCP PLZ'. Most bombers do not ISBox at present. The problem is bombers and bombs and CCP is changing them to fix this.

ISBoxers have their align times nerfed and sigs increased too, their bombs do not go 999999 km p/hour, they are not invincible gods, although you would be forgiven for thinking it with the amount of posts that centre around them instead of the actual changes.

True, ISBoxers can setup faster, not like they couldn't setup faster and do better bomb runs at the moment anyways.

Bombers who really want to bomb can still bomb but must *communicate* and *use their brain* and *rise to the challenge*. If you can't figure out how to do this and want easy mode then don't fly bombers.

The amount of *actual feedback* on the thread is pitiful.

Now go forth and enjoy your Shield battleships, battlecruisers and other ships that were completely sh*t on and made unviable by bombers.


Good changes CCP fozzie, maybe abit over nerfed between sig and increased align times and bomb flight time increase. I would probably ditch 1 of those 3 nerfs and keep the other 2.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#251 - 2014-10-16 17:12:18 UTC
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:
Querns wrote:


All ships have a radius attribute. A bomb just has to hit inside this radius to hit the ship. This gives you a decent amount of leeway when dumb-firing a one meter radius bomb. E.g.: a naglfar has a radius of 1700 m. It'll still require a degree of finesse, but not nearly as much as you're thinking it will.


I still think it is too complicated.

A bomb is supposed to be AoE, its its not AoE, might as well use a special torpedo with a long cooldown. Why introduce this needless complexity of having to aim a non-AoE weapon manually...?


Actually, I think the point of this bomb is to also reclassify bombs not as AOE weapons specifically, but as dumb-fire weapons that require you to aim. The fact that most of these dumb-fire weapons also do AOE damage is not implicative of the role, in general. I'd like to see more non-AOE dumb-fire weapons, in general -- I think they reward skill in a way that a lot of things in Eve currently lack.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#252 - 2014-10-16 17:14:13 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:
Querns wrote:


All ships have a radius attribute. A bomb just has to hit inside this radius to hit the ship. This gives you a decent amount of leeway when dumb-firing a one meter radius bomb. E.g.: a naglfar has a radius of 1700 m. It'll still require a degree of finesse, but not nearly as much as you're thinking it will.


I still think it is too complicated.

A bomb is supposed to be AoE, its its not AoE, might as well use a special torpedo with a long cooldown. Why introduce this needless complexity of having to aim a non-AoE weapon manually...?


This isn't strictly true. Many modern munitions (bombs) are actually designed to have a smaller area of explosion. This keeps most of the released chemical energy where it can do the most good: on your target. Claymores, Shaped charges in general, bunker busters, and omni explosives (breaching) are common examples.

Querns wrote:
I'd like to see more non-AOE dumb-fire weapons, in general -- I think they reward skill in a way that a lot of things in Eve currently lack.
^This.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#253 - 2014-10-16 17:17:40 UTC
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:
Querns wrote:


All ships have a radius attribute. A bomb just has to hit inside this radius to hit the ship. This gives you a decent amount of leeway when dumb-firing a one meter radius bomb. E.g.: a naglfar has a radius of 1700 m. It'll still require a degree of finesse, but not nearly as much as you're thinking it will.


I still think it is too complicated.

A bomb is supposed to be AoE, its its not AoE, might as well use a special torpedo with a long cooldown. Why introduce this needless complexity of having to aim a non-AoE weapon manually...?



simply because its more fun i'm realy looking forward to the new bomb and hope to see more like it

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#254 - 2014-10-16 17:18:16 UTC  |  Edited by: PinkKnife
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We do not want to "headshot" bombers, and we don't currently believe that these changes make them unviable.


Do you even play this game? Have you ever tried to do this? It's a ******* nightmare. There's a reason you didn't see massive bombing ops prior to 2012, because it was ******* impossible. We tried, and failed everytime.

If your goal is to nerf bombing runs, then do that directly, don't nerf cloaking in general. Or the sheer ability to organize in cov-ops ships.

When the time to organize and bomb a fleet is greater than the time it takes for the opposing fleet to move, then your not going to have a bombing fleet because you have no targets. This does headshot bombing because its far more work than ANY other task in this game after these changes. You aren't making a mechanic weaker, you're making it impossible to do. So why not just remove it as a whole then.

If your goal is to add in the same arbitrary and pointless gameplay mechanics that just hinder players for the sake of it, that have plagued this game for a decade and make it harder to do simple PVP operations, then mission accomplished. IF your goal is to weaken a mechanic that is being abused by tweaking its individual stats, then you've ******* screwed the pooch on this one and horrendously failed.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#255 - 2014-10-16 17:18:46 UTC
Domanique Altares wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Oh, and while we're at it, since the thread is about 50% on this topic anyway.

Ban ISBoxer. Or barring such decisive action, at least dredge up the fortitude to address it, make a statement regarding it's use. Knock off the tiptoeing around the issue, and address the elephant in the room once and for all.

Heck, if the truth of the matter is that you just can't tell whether someone is using it or not, just admit it. Many of us suspect such a thing anyway.


Of course they don't know. And as soon as they find a way to know, it'll be circumvented by hiding the program's processes.

The truth of the matter is that they know banning multibox software WILL result in sub losses. No doubt. Unlike everyone who threatens to leave over this or that change, banning ISBoxer guarantees sub/PLEX sale losses, because people with massive ISBoxed fleets literally no longer have their playstyle available.


Well, TIL. Cheating at a videogame is okay so long as enough people do it.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Jean Luc Lemmont
Carebears on Fire
#256 - 2014-10-16 17:19:32 UTC
Moraguth wrote:
elitatwo wrote:
Funny observations of the last weeks:

We say Ishtar op!

CCP comes:
Nerf missiles!

We say bombs too strong!

CCP comes:
Nerf cloaks!

Got me thinking, if we can determine the right pattern here we could ask for the right nerf or buff to occure. I am usually very observant and good at this but this pattern still eludes me..


I have no idea what your agenda or desired nerf would be, but for the sake of SCIENCE, i think you should try organizing a huge effort to scream "NERF MINING DRONES!" just to see what would happen. We need more data points to discover the pattern!


We say Nerf Mining Drones
CCP: Resets Sov.

Will I get banned for boxing!?!?!

This thread has degenerated to the point it's become like two bald men fighting over a comb. -- Doc Fury

It's bonuses, not boni, you cretins.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#257 - 2014-10-16 17:20:52 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
Porucznik Borewicz wrote:
Chiimera wrote:
Great work killing bombing runs completely.

Cloaked ships decloaking other cloaked ships would be fine IF fleet members could actually tell where each other are.

+1 to this all the way! Let me see cloaked gang members in space please.


sadly this would be abused by spies in fleet guiding decloaking 'ceptors through the pack


Yes, I am following this and collecting feedback

Yes, I have ties with Bombers Bar and Spectre fleet

Yes, I think it is a bit much though I doubt it will 'kill the lifestyle' because players are too damn stubborn to die that easily

I am askign for what are the top two changes you would like dialed back or modified? If you don't want to say it here, feel free to send me an evemail

m



well let spies do what spys do that would be a plus not a drawback

=) but i think the code for this would be to hard to work out

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#258 - 2014-10-16 17:21:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
Capital neut bombs are really going to screw over smaller setups while bigger entities will just build in extra redundancy but I can see the griefers will be gleeful... really bad, really really bad, idea IMO I can see what its intended to do but it really is like cutting off a head to cure a headache.

Cloaking changes are a step backwards also - while I lived with it before and can deal with it again progress this ain't.
ulililillia
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#259 - 2014-10-16 17:22:39 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
Porucznik Borewicz wrote:
Chiimera wrote:
Great work killing bombing runs completely.

Cloaked ships decloaking other cloaked ships would be fine IF fleet members could actually tell where each other are.

+1 to this all the way! Let me see cloaked gang members in space please.


sadly this would be abused by spies in fleet guiding decloaking 'ceptors through the pack



Isn't that's perfectly fine?
Spying is a huge part of eve and if you're flying with strangers you deserve to get that occasional spy decloak you. Also, they can already do this right now without seeing cloaked fleet members in space
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
#260 - 2014-10-16 17:23:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Benny Ohu
Mike Azariah wrote:
Porucznik Borewicz wrote:
Chiimera wrote:
Great work killing bombing runs completely.

Cloaked ships decloaking other cloaked ships would be fine IF fleet members could actually tell where each other are.

+1 to this all the way! Let me see cloaked gang members in space please.


sadly this would be abused by spies in fleet guiding decloaking 'ceptors through the pack

is it feasible to have broadcasting such information optional for the individual or fleet boss?

e: or have the information broadcasted to fleet pilots only within a limited range. the range is based on giving players just enough information to avoid decloaking each other, but also short enough that someone can't see where everyone else is