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[Phoebe] Long Distance Travel Changes - updates!

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Polo Marco
Four Winds
#1261 - 2014-10-15 10:47:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Polo Marco
Lord TGR wrote:
And 9LY/day is an average which doesn't take into account anything even remotely related to pony expressing.
Let's say an alliance has 400 jump capable pilot alts and 1600 caps fitted and ready to go. To project force into its space there is a central jump base system within 32ly of the three outlying jump bases which are all beyond jump range of each other. A balnaced distribution would leave 100 pilots in reserve and 100 in each station. remember since you can only change your pilot bases once every 7 days any redistribution of forces... moving your reserve to an outlying base to make a 200 cap fleet there cannot be undone for a full week, so the other nodes are left on their own, and if you want a reserve you must weaken them to redeploy pilots to the main base WHERE THEY CAN"T BE REDEPLOYED FOR SEVEN MORE DAYS.

Any real concentration of force, say 300 pilots in an outlying area will leave the other jump bases far reduced in strength and will offer a glaring weakness for 7 whole days to your enemy. There is much more strategy here than just JUMP AND BLAP which is how it is today. You could 'pony express' yourself right over a cliff.

Lord TGR wrote:
I doubt they'll let us destroy stargates, but if they do then I assume they'll replace it with a mechanism for jumping between systems which requires no gates, so you can setup gates, and that these gates'll have range limits to still maintain the strategic importance of certain systems.

But they were also promising walking in stations, and asteroid belt mining and POS revamps etc. I'd be careful with what they've promised and what they'll actually deliver. This change to caps, sov etc are things which are necessary, because they're (finally; I've been saying we'd end up in the situation we're in now in nullsec for 3, closer to 4 years) at the point where they've realized that the mechanics in nullsec are Not Good, and that they have to change.
SO why speculate? I have absolutely no idea what they are gonna do, and am not convinced that they really know yet themselves. I'm gonna sit back and wait on them, and keep some popcorn ready for watching the show.

Lord TGR wrote:
So basically, leave the universe as a flat universe where strategy is barely a concern.
The huge grind factor here will far outweigh any military complexity and depth of play added to the game. They've already had to throw the JF bone to placate the mob. I see worse trouble ahead. Redactions of content in MMOs are HIDEOUS.

Lord TGR wrote:
Why? It's a buff to capitals.
It's Pandora's box. SLOW DOWN with it.

On a lighter note, It's giving them implementation fits ;) I haven't been myself yet but was on comms last week with a corpie who went over to SISI just to get to fly a titan. Seems there is a whole new kind of titan bowling. When one comes through a gate it scatters EVERYTHING on the other side like dropping a bowl of marbles. Some players were having more fun with this than blowing each other up. Ever seen an NYX moving at 10k?

Eve teaches hard lessons. Don't blame the game for your own failures.
Celly S
Neutin Local LLC
#1262 - 2014-10-15 11:12:03 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
5LY for JF!



you did read the part about null industry and why they aren't doing that didn't you?

just saying..

o/
Celly Smunt

Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator.
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#1263 - 2014-10-15 11:32:34 UTC  |  Edited by: gascanu
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Hi everyone,


Conclusions we have reached through this exercise:
[list]
  • The ease of nullsec logistics permitted by jump freighters and, to a lesser extent, jump bridge networks is not aligned with where we would like nullsec industry to be.
  • It *is*, however, pretty well aligned with where nullsec industry is right now. As we improve the status quo for industry in nullsec, we will want to reevaluate this balance, along with the impact potential changes would have on logistical work for other areas of the game.
  • We're pretty happy with the impact of the proposed changes on the movement of non-covert combat ships, as it relates to both jump drives and jump bridges, for all ranges.


    • Thanks,
    -Greyscale




    i'm sorry, maybe i'm missing something here; if this is the way you want to move eve along, do you realize that the harder logistics you make, the bigger coalitions you get?
    like really, just stop and think about it for a bit, why do you think a new industrial player or an industrial corp will ever chose to join a small alliance instead of a bigger/richer coalition?
    "join a small alliance that will have problems keeping them resupplied, or join a big strong coalition/alliance that will provide us with all the materials we need to build stuff.." hmm, really really hard choice here...Roll

    edit: oh, and do you guys even realize that a cap jumping thru a gate in low sec it will be basically impossible to catch?
    you know, deagro, jump thru gate then, the second your invul goes off, jump to a cyno?
    but no, i'm sure you guys already thought about it and came up with a solution, right? right?!
    Lord TGR
    Brutor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #1264 - 2014-10-15 11:44:16 UTC
    Polo Marco wrote:
    Let's say an alliance has 400 jump capable pilot alts and 1600 caps fitted and ready to go. To project force into its space there is a central jump base system within 32ly of the three outlying jump bases which are all beyond jump range of each other. A balnaced distribution would leave 100 pilots in reserve and 100 in each station. remember since you can only change your pilot bases once every 7 days any redistribution of forces... moving your reserve to an outlying base to make a 200 cap fleet there cannot be undone for a full week, so the other nodes are left on their own, and if you want a reserve you must weaken them to redeploy pilots to the main base WHERE THEY CAN"T BE REDEPLOYED FOR SEVEN MORE DAYS.

    Any real concentration of force, say 300 pilots in an outlying area will leave the other jump bases far reduced in strength and will offer a glaring weakness for 7 whole days to your enemy. There is much more strategy here than just JUMP AND BLAP which is how it is today. You could 'pony express' yourself right over a cliff.

    If you have 400 pilots and 1600 caps fitted and ready to go, then you wouldn't need to put 100 pilots in each system between your destination. What you'd do is you'd put, say, 3/4 of the pilots in the final destination (so 300 pilots). Then you'd spread the remaining 100 chars along the route, the first 33 would jump to the first interim system, hand it over to the next 33, deathclone back to the first system and jump over 33 more. Meanwhile, the 33 in the second system would jump to the 3rd system and deathclone back, etc etc etc etc. In the end you'd have 300 pilots with one or more cap ready for use, all within a very short amount of time.

    And you could still get those 100 chars into the final system and use them actively in that system, they just can't cyno anywhere.

    Polo Marco wrote:
    Lord TGR wrote:
    So basically, leave the universe as a flat universe where strategy is barely a concern.

    The huge grind factor here will far outweigh any military complexity and depth of play added to the game. They've already had to throw the JF bone to placate the mob. I see worse trouble ahead. Redactions of content in MMOs are HIDEOUS.

    Reducing the range of offensive capitals isn't adding to a grind, it's adding depth to their use. It's added content.

    And the only reason JFs had to get a bone is because industry etc in nullsec isn't up to snuff to keep up with the demands nullsec put on them, and this is something we're saying while we're mostly at peace. If we're at war then you can rest assured that there will be fleets roaming around in someone's space, interdicting things like mining and hauling etc, which'll reduce the industrial capacity of nullsec even further than it is today.

    If that hadn't been the case, then you can be fairly certain that they wouldn't leave the JFs alone.

    Polo Marco wrote:
    It's Pandora's box. SLOW DOWN with it.

    It's not pandora's box. It'll make things slightly different when planning out attack/defense strategies, but it's not going to be that much of a change. There's nothing to fear here.

    Polo Marco wrote:
    On a lighter note, It's giving them implementation fits ;) I haven't been myself yet but was on comms last week with a corpie who went over to SISI just to get to fly a titan. Seems there is a whole new kind of titan bowling. When one comes through a gate it scatters EVERYTHING on the other side like dropping a bowl of marbles. Some players were having more fun with this than blowing each other up. Ever seen an NYX moving at 10k?

    I've seen various supercarriers and titans etc fly at ridiculous speeds often enough. It gets old after the 3rd time.

    And yes, the act of shoving your supercarriers and titans etc through a gate is going to cause some minor issues, but I'm thinking that's not going to be a huge problem if they decide to deal with it.
    cecil b d'milf
    Perkone
    Caldari State
    #1265 - 2014-10-15 13:34:24 UTC
    smokeydapot wrote:
    So I ran this idea past some non eve players using the analogy of cars the story goes as such:

    Me: so you hear of a brand new BMW that is capable of doing 1000 miles per gallon, It costs you a years wage and an extensive driving licence that takes more than a year to complete.

    them: What’s it called ?

    Me: The BMW 540 W.I.S, Anyway this car has the ability to carry other cars, all of your furniture and go 400 MPH.

    Them: 400 MPH ???

    Me: yes it’s an awesome machine, It’s the ultimate car.

    Them: Ok I'm sold, Sign me up i want it.

    Me: now the dealership drops the bombshell.

    Them: there’s always a catch.

    Me: as usual, the car never does the 1000 miles, after 48.5 miles it overheats before you can travel again leaving you at the side of the road for 5 minutes and 51 seconds.

    Them: well that sucks.

    Me: that’s not the extent of it, once you start driving again because the engine retains heat you travel 35.7 miles before stopping expecting it to overheat again, Your expectation is correct but this time you are stranded at the side of the road for 25 minutes.

    Them: screw it I would rather take the train.

    Me: but what about all the cool features this car has to offer ??

    Them: It’s not worth the time investment or money to sit at the side of the road.

    Me: But it’s such a cool car if you want you can get a tow to cover extra distance while it cools down.

    Them: nope not interested, I buy a car to get around despite all the cool features it’s not worth the trouble.



    So even them that have never played eve or have any idea of these changes ( before this conversation ) agree that this "patch" is a pile of crap.

    Go try this with people that don't play eve yourself and see what the reaction is.


    How many BMWs do the US Navy have on deployment in the Persian Gulf currently ?
    Jean Luc Lemmont
    Carebears on Fire
    #1266 - 2014-10-15 14:04:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Jean Luc Lemmont
    cecil b d'milf wrote:
    smokeydapot wrote:
    So I ran this idea past some non eve players using the analogy of cars the story goes as such:

    Me: so you hear of a brand new BMW that is capable of doing 1000 miles per gallon, It costs you a years wage and an extensive driving licence that takes more than a year to complete.

    them: What’s it called ?

    Me: The BMW 540 W.I.S, Anyway this car has the ability to carry other cars, all of your furniture and go 400 MPH.

    Them: 400 MPH ???

    Me: yes it’s an awesome machine, It’s the ultimate car.

    Them: Ok I'm sold, Sign me up i want it.

    Me: now the dealership drops the bombshell.

    Them: there’s always a catch.

    Me: as usual, the car never does the 1000 miles, after 48.5 miles it overheats before you can travel again leaving you at the side of the road for 5 minutes and 51 seconds.

    Them: well that sucks.

    Me: that’s not the extent of it, once you start driving again because the engine retains heat you travel 35.7 miles before stopping expecting it to overheat again, Your expectation is correct but this time you are stranded at the side of the road for 25 minutes.

    Them: screw it I would rather take the train.

    Me: but what about all the cool features this car has to offer ??

    Them: It’s not worth the time investment or money to sit at the side of the road.

    Me: But it’s such a cool car if you want you can get a tow to cover extra distance while it cools down.

    Them: nope not interested, I buy a car to get around despite all the cool features it’s not worth the trouble.



    So even them that have never played eve or have any idea of these changes ( before this conversation ) agree that this "patch" is a pile of crap.

    Go try this with people that don't play eve yourself and see what the reaction is.


    How many BMWs do the US Navy have on deployment in the Persian Gulf currently ?

    Probably none, but the US Army has a few Mercedes Benz kicking around.

    Will I get banned for boxing!?!?!

    This thread has degenerated to the point it's become like two bald men fighting over a comb. -- Doc Fury

    It's bonuses, not boni, you cretins.
    Lorcas
    Perkone
    Caldari State
    #1267 - 2014-10-15 14:15:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Lorcas
    I theorycrafted another jump fatigue system for non-logistics ships 2 weeks ago and got some feedback to share the improved system here. You can read the TL;DR over here on my blog. You can skip to the last two paragraphs of "The Bad Ideas and the Good One" and read onwards for the examples and such. Before anyone screams for click on my site (I make no money off of it so I really don't care), here is a brief view of what is proposed:

    Main Features:
    - Gate travel will remain inaccessible to capitals
    - Jumps will remain at a 5 ly distance limit
    - Static jump cooldown based on distance
    - Fatigue will act as a multiplier to the cooldown
    - Fatigue will only increase when jumping from one region to another
    - Fatigue will decay faster the longer you don't jump
    - Fatigue decay timer will start after the jump cooldown has expired

    The values I have tested this with are as follow:
    - Cooldown: 1min / ly
    - Fatigue: +2 for every region crossed
    - Fatigue decay: You will lose a fixed index for each subsequent 24h without jumping. The index will increase by 2 for every 24h without a jump.

    You can view the tables in my blog as I don't think I can replicate the formatting here. Also note these values are only there to give an idea, if CCP does adapt it, I suspect they will adjust values accordingly.


    The effects of such a system are quite simple; add some delay for local travel while adding considerable delay for longer range deployment. It is also a very simple system since the values are static and you don't need advanced math to anticipate travel time. Some regions will gain new value by acting as a gateway to multiple regions. The fatigue proposed by CCP was a good idea, but was a bit too damaging to a pilot regardless of what they were doing. This system does penalize longer deployment while leaving your local defense manageable. If you deploy somewhere, you will have to commit for a few days, but the fatigue will also decays much faster as you stay in that region. All in all, this will either favor many small regional fights or everyone will stay in their corner of eve and nothing will change.

    I think I summarized everything. Let me know what you like/hate about it. Hopefully we end up with an easy to use and favorable system that doesn't damage your cap pilots for a long time.
    CCP Greyscale
    C C P
    C C P Alliance
    #1268 - 2014-10-15 15:20:42 UTC
    OK, so the forum ate my first post, I'm going to reply to the stuff I still have open and then try and come back and rewrite all the other stuff later.

    Tal Redfield wrote:
    Hopefully my maths is good so here goes on Black ops with 50% reduction in jump fatigue bonus.

    First Drop; Fatique 0, Range 5ly
    Timer: (5 + 1) x 50%bonus = 3min
    New Fatique: 3

    Return to origin; Fatique after 5min (3–(5x0.1)) = 2.5, Range 5ly
    [Fatique < Minimum Timer] Timer: (5 + 1) x 50%bonus = 3min
    New Fatique: 3 x 2.5 = 7.5


    Second Drop; Fatique after 30min (7.5-(30x0.1)) = 4.5, Range 7.5ly
    Timer: 4.5min
    New Fatique: 4.5 x ((7.5 + 1) * 50%bonus) = 19.125

    Return to origin; Fatique after 5min (19.125–(5x0.1)) = 18.625, Range 7.5ly
    Timer: 18.625min
    New Fatique: 18.625 x ((7.5 + 1) * 50%bonus) = 79.16


    Third Drop: Fatique after 30min (79.16-(30x0.1)) = 76.16, Range 7ly
    Timer: 79.16min
    New Fatique: 79.16 x ((7 + 1) * 50%bonus) = 304.63

    Return to origin; Fatique after waiting 80min (304.63 – (80 x 0.1)) = 296.63, Range 7ly
    Timer: 296.63min / 4.9hours
    New Fatique: 296.63 x ((7 + 1) * 50%bonus) = 1186.5

    Summary:
    • After the third drop you have to wait approx. 1hour20min to jump back home.
    • After returning home from third drop you will wait approx. 5 hours before being able to jump again
    • The accumulated fatigue after 3 drops will take 8.2 days to decay!!!!!
    • You are limited to a max of three drops when starting with zero fatigue, even less if you start with some fatigue already active.

    Limiting Black Ops to 2 possibly 3 drops is definitely harming them in my opinion. The same applies to titan bridging gangs on a local basis which provides hours of fun and does nothing for power projection.

    Base the bonus for Black Ops around the ORIGIN system, like a “Going home” bonus, example;
    Johnny drops on a shiny ship 5ly away. He gets 3 fatigue. He jumps back to the home/origin system, the bonus kicks in and significantly reduces or negates fatigue for that jump.

    Create a bonus for Titan bridging that originates in the same system so that local content does not get stifled which is what is about to happen. Your aims for these changes is to limit power projection, making local content harder to access does not have to be a side effect.
    Example: Johnny takes Titan Bridge to drop on shiny ship 5ly away. He gets 6 fatigue. He burns back to ORIGIN system and stacks back on the Titan. He bridges a second time from the same system into the same immediate vicinity, bonus kicks in and resets his fatigue back to 6 or whatever. However any other subsequent jump from any other system will incur normal fatigue penalties, which means your original idea for crippling long distance travel still applies for any movement away from the origin system.

    So in closing please CCP come up with a bonus fatigue reduction system for Black Ops and Titan Bridges that take into account the ORIGIN/HOME system on subsequent jumps so as to not stifle local content.

    Regards


    Thanks for math! We are not, however, going to extend any changes to non-covert portals or starbase jump bridges. We're happy with those right now.

    Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
    CCP Greyscale wrote:
    Segava wrote:
    Excellent work CCP.

    Any news on a cap on extreme jump fatigue times? Or is this a myth that has been misunderstood?

    Secondly, obviously you intend jump bridge travel to be slightly faster now that everyone will sit in a hauler to get around the universe. This is intended correct? It doesn't seem too different from the old days! If this is intended, then I am quite sad about reverting the intended goals.


    Capped at 1 month of fatigue, so ~3 days of cooldown. And if people run around in haulers the whole time, we'll probably nerf them.

    One month seems like a very low cap. It removes a lot of the disruptive potential of the change which has me somewhat less excited about the positive aspects of the long distance travel nerf.

    One month isn't a very long time in EVE, especially on a large scale when you're talking about alliance/coalition deployments.

    A cap is definitely needed to keep that math from going out of hand, but how did you arrive at a 1 month cap instead of 2/3?


    Largely because it felt like a reasonable time, but we don't see a strong need to go longer, because a) it'll start accumulating again as soon as you jump again, even after cooldown and b) honestly getting it up to 1 month is not something we're expecting to see a whole lot.

    Medalyn Isis wrote:


    Also just to clarify something. Is it ( 1 + fatigue ) * 'fatigue reduction factor' OR 1 + 'fatigue' * 'fatigue reduction factor' ?

    BTW the first point is directed at Darryl.


    The latter, for the same reason the 1 is there in the first place, ie to prevent sub-1 multipliers.

    Megarom wrote:
    Couple of questions for Grayscale
    The big general one:
    Why is there any need for the fatigue math do more than limit the sustained speed to 0.1?

    Smaller more specific ones, but:
    1. Why so complicated model when a simple model satisfies the main requirement and situations in which the complex one is different very very rare anyway, assuming near max range jumps.
    2. What purpose does it serve that you get bigger fatigue if you make two 1 LY jumps back to back compared to one 2 LY jump?
    3. What purpose does it serve that you get bigger fatigue if you
    1. jump 2. wait 6 minutes 3. jump 4. wait 50 minutes 5. jump
    vs
    1. jump 2. wait 50 minutes 3. jump 4. wait 6 minutes 5. jump
    ?


    Sustained speed needs to be held below 3 minutes per LY, that's the primary goal. Where we're going beyond that, it's because we see the capability to hit secondary goals easily.

    1. That's actually a pretty neat solution. It loses something in that we like the low-value fatigue penalties for short-range travel as it adds...
    CCP Greyscale
    C C P
    C C P Alliance
    #1269 - 2014-10-15 15:24:01 UTC
    Ukiah Oregan wrote:
    A No Timer Interactive Game Mechanic Idea:

    Hull Decay Factor

    Each hull would have a decay factor

    Each time that Hull jumps the decay value increases

    --insert fancy mathematical calculation for rate of decay versus LY traveled divided by Hull class decay ratio

    --insert fancy mathematical calculation for determining FATAL decay value for each Hull class

    When decay value reaches Fatal limit ship crashes and burns - literally

    --generate killmail that would explain the pilots negligence to maintain his/her ship properly because its internal sub system failed allowing environmental radiation to cause an overload of the core breaching the core safeties and triggering an catastrophic failure of the core. this was contributed to the stress and over use of the ship..

    Hull Decay Factor would be a non repairable, persistent value

    If Hull is sold,contracted, traded or borrowed the Hull Decay Factor remains and will continue to increase as warranted

    This would allow the Pilot to decide how, where and when to use his/her ship

    --The decay factor could also contribute to an overall reduction to structure and hull hit points also decreasing the value of the ship over time prior to total melt down

    Theoretical Outcomes:

    All jump capable hull will have to be replaced based on their decay value over all (unless they are never jumped)

    This may result in an increase in ALL jump capable hull production

    This may result in a "used" Jump capable hull market - with varying cost based on the hull decay ratio

    Players get to continue to decide how to play when and how they want to play

    causes a long term ISK sink for owning and operating a Jump capable hull

    May increases the cost of frequently far flung "Force projection" over time

    -- force project could still happen but with a consequence - it allows the players to make that decision instead of CCP

    Environment

    Space is hostile - does it really make sense for a specific hull that was produced 10 years ago to be able to continue to function as if it was brand new today ?

    I've gotten tired of spreading hate......wanted to pitch an idea instead.......

    JUST SAY NO TO TIMERS!

    No More Timers Please


    We thought about something similar, but it ends up not directly solving the problem, and rather just incentivizing players to do things they won't enjoy doing in order to win.

    Andy Landen wrote:
    So, according to Eve lore, the jump drive utilizes wormhole technology. Therefore the idea of distance limits is absurd. Since there is no fatigue in jumping through natural wormholes, the idea of jump fatigue is equally baseless.


    The fatigue isn't because of traveling through the 'hole, rather it's caused by the mental effort of causing it to form at the correct co-ordinates. Natural wormholes, stargates etc don't have this problem, and the further the distance the hole needs to connect to, the harder it is to calculate.

    (Jump bridges/portals merely act as a surrogate jump drive, each ship still creates its own wormhole.)

    Nofearion wrote:
    this question may not seem to be related to the jump nerf, however I believe it is.
    CCP Greyscale, has any thought been given to increasing the CPU of Player owned Towers? or a reduction of CPU usage by reactors, assembly arrays ect.?


    Fozzie is adjusting some starbase stats in a thread somewhere, I think :)

    nospet wrote:
    Will pods get full fatigue using a jump bridge or jump portal?


    Yup.

    gascanu wrote:


    i'm sorry, maybe i'm missing something here; if this is the way you want to move eve along, do you realize that the harder logistics you make, the bigger coalitions you get?
    like really, just stop and think about it for a bit, why do you think a new industrial player or an industrial corp will ever chose to join a small alliance instead of a bigger/richer coalition?
    "join a small alliance that will have problems keeping them resupplied, or join a big strong coalition/alliance that will provide us with all the materials we need to build stuff.." hmm, really really hard choice here...Roll

    edit: oh, and do you guys even realize that a cap jumping thru a gate in low sec it will be basically impossible to catch?
    you know, deagro, jump thru gate then, the second your invul goes off, jump to a cyno?
    but no, i'm sure you guys already thought about it and came up with a solution, right? right?!


    Part of the goal with logistics is to reduce the amount you need to live in null, which we think changes the playing field fairly substantially.

    As to jumping through gates, yeah, thought about it, implementing a solution.
    Andy Landen
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #1270 - 2014-10-15 15:29:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Andy Landen
    CCP Greyscale wrote:

    Andy Landen wrote:
    So, according to Eve lore, the jump drive utilizes wormhole technology. Therefore the idea of distance limits is absurd. Since there is no fatigue in jumping through natural wormholes, the idea of jump fatigue is equally baseless.


    The fatigue isn't because of traveling through the 'hole, rather it's caused by the mental effort of causing it to form at the correct co-ordinates. Natural wormholes, stargates etc don't have this problem, and the further the distance the hole needs to connect to, the harder it is to calculate.

    (Jump bridges/portals merely act as a surrogate jump drive, each ship still creates its own wormhole.)

    And jump freighters and Covert jumps require less mental effort?

    Also, why does Black Ops get all this love when the primary reason for these changes is to limit the projection of power across large distances?

    Surely there has to be a much better and simpler way. This approach appears to be madness.

    Added: Must live within 5ly of an NPC station in order to enable reliable evac. Not sure why anyone would believe that a capital would ever consider taking a gate to justify the risk. In response to a previous poster, de-aggro and re-approaching a gate for a capital ship involves fighting bumping and soaking damage for the entire time required to get back to the gate within sufficient range to jump without having someone and perhaps also some bubbles waiting for you on the other side. Non-HS to Non-HS stargates are suicide for caps, currently.

    "We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 
    Dwissi
    Miners Delight Reborn
    #1271 - 2014-10-15 15:39:48 UTC
    If everyone would just step back for a second and look at the situation from the outside you would probably rethink the 'wtf' attitude and calm down a bit:

    Capitals where introduced to have a counter to the original POS warfare. There is no POS warfare anymore because everyone kept shouting and screaming how awful that was. CCP changed it and yet - you kept your capitals - unchanged even.

    We - the players - twisted the original ideas of ships into some completely different roles and as a result we twisted the original ideas of many other things at the same time. Eve is intertwined and we created effects that where not appreciated by many. CCP gave us a lot of time and just watched - but they obviously where not blind.

    We as players have not been able to turn this wheel back - pretty human reaction as limiting ones abilities usually only happens when outside forces are at work. CCP is this outside force. Eve requires a change and change always means someone is going to suffer at least to some extend. Many others have suffered in other areas when changes where introduced for their line of gaming.

    Pay these fellow gamers a bit of respect and dont act out like the upcoming changes are more important and more hurting than others in the past. Try to stay calm and adopt first instead of pumping out the 100th idea how CCP should implement things. We love to claim to be the 'smarter' community and the smarter players compared to other games - but currently we behave as bad as players of 'the game who's name shall not be stated'.

    Proud designer of glasses for geeky dovakins

    Before someone complains again: grr everyone

    Greed is the death of loyalty
    TheMercenaryKing
    Collapsed Out
    Pandemic Legion
    #1272 - 2014-10-15 16:08:29 UTC  |  Edited by: TheMercenaryKing
    CCP Greyscale wrote:
    Mr Omniblivion wrote:
    CCP Greyscale wrote:
    a significant percentage of their basic needs on-site without relying on JF chains


    AKA: rebalancing nullsec ore anomalies


    Good idea. It's been a while since I messed with nullsec anomalies. I think I remember how to do it...



    Off topic, yes, but listen a bit.

    The problem with null industry is a few things, but adjusting the ore anomalies will only help by a very small amount. The reason things need to be imported into null is that a single person can only mine a small volume. Due to the rorqual boosts, you can get a 15% increase over highsec with an Orca, but it is still a small amount a single person can do.

    Even though I used to multibox and build ships myself thus basing mining off ISK is incorrect, here is some ISK stats for mining in null.

    T2 ammo on a hulk, max yield fit plus rorqual and 3% mx implant:
    1772 m3/m
    Max refine:
    88%

    With the exception of Mercoxit at current prices, that is less than half a million a minute
    Gniess is the highest at 491000 isk/m
    Omber is the lowest at 297500 isk/m
    Average is 414000 isk/m
    That is 25 million isk an hour, per person when mining everything.

    High sec contains 2 of the most expensive ores, Kernite and Plagioclase - because of the mexallon deficit in nul. A person mining in highsec can achieve similar results, and can sell better because of trade hubs. This is an important factor since most people who mine do it for the isk.

    Nullsec has more available volume, but most players do not want to mine because: Ratting makes more money, some claim it is boring, and frankly they like shooting things.

    You could remove lower priced ore (all of which are huge volumes of Trit which are necessary) or adjust the types of ore, but that will not make people want to mine.
    You could make mining more active, but that will likely hurt multiboxers. Some may like this, but it really is not a good idea.
    the 3rd option is the make the volume of ore you can mine in null greater. This means the people in highsec have an incentive of more than 15% to move.



    As far as ore anom mechanics, there are, IMO, 2 major flaws.

    1st, How large the sites are. The sites are way to big and take too long for 10 people to kill.
    2nd, The sites should be despawning and respawning to prevent camping. Last I knew the site lasted until it was killed and respawned the next downtime or after 3 days.

    It would be a good idea to make the ore sites more like combat anoms where they are designed for one person or multilple but last upto an hour, and then respawn. Larger sites would be designed for more and more people, with the largest designed for 20-25 people mining for 1 hour.
    Alp Khan
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #1273 - 2014-10-15 16:10:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Alp Khan
    CCP Greyscale wrote:

    We thought about something similar, but it ends up not directly solving the problem, and rather just incentivizing players to do things they won't enjoy doing in order to win.


    Which is funny, considering the poorly thought fatigue timer you were able to come up with also just incentivizes players to do things they won't enjoy doing in order to win.

    CCP Greyscale wrote:

    Part of the goal with logistics is to reduce the amount you need to live in null, which we think changes the playing field fairly substantially.


    Explain to us how introducing an arbitrary, artifical timer over jump mechanics was going to help with the goal of reducing the amount of logistics you need to live in null, since even a two month old newbie involved in null logistics and production knows very well that null production at a very basic level is dependent on the empire for essential production materials.

    Your cluelessness and sheer lack of insight on the very game you are employed as a developer of is absolutely, breathtakingly stunning.
    Rowells
    Blackwater USA Inc.
    Pandemic Horde
    #1274 - 2014-10-15 16:30:36 UTC
    Alp Khan wrote:
    CCP Greyscale wrote:

    Part of the goal with logistics is to reduce the amount you need to live in null, which we think changes the playing field fairly substantially.


    Explain to us how introducing an arbitrary, artifical timer over jump mechanics was going to help with the goal of reducing the amount of logistics you need to live in null, since even a two month old newbie involved in null logistics and production knows very well that null production at a very basic level is dependent on the empire for essential production materials.

    Your cluelessness and sheer lack of insight on the very game you are employed as a developer of is absolutely, breathtakingly stunning.

    He kinda did:
    CCP Greyscale wrote:
    As we improve the status quo for industry in nullsec, we will want to reevaluate this balance, along with the impact potential changes would have on logistical work for other areas of the game.
    So there you go.

    1) Make nullsec logistics less dependent
    2) Reduce logistics
    Serendipity Lost
    Repo Industries
    #1275 - 2014-10-15 16:46:06 UTC
    Kwa Zulu wrote:
    It wouldn't be unreasonable to limit fatigue to a maximium of something like a week, preventing sold chars from being messed up as well as newbies making their characters unusuable by mistake



    I don't think this change was meant to have anything to do with character sales. I also don't think being able to buy a non fatigued jump capable pilot at a whim to get from A to B is even slightly in line with this game having a bright future. And really... a noob with jump skills making the character unusable... by mistake.... You're hanging your hat on that??? hahahahahaha

    Guys.... It's over... well OK, not over yet, but it's coming to an end. You really need to come to terms with what they are doing and move on. CCP is breaking your game to save mine. (this is soooo exciting.... I'm on the team with the "I WIN" button) This feels awesome!!!!
    SFM Hobb3s
    Perkone
    Caldari State
    #1276 - 2014-10-15 17:14:39 UTC
    I both wonder and hope that CCP's success with Phoebe is measured in how much of the blue donut starts burning. Things are starting to look meaningful CCP...keep it up! I for one get more excited by the day for Phoebe to land.
    cecil b d'milf
    Perkone
    Caldari State
    #1277 - 2014-10-15 17:39:55 UTC
    Dwissi wrote:
    If everyone would just step back for a second and look at the situation from the outside you would probably rethink the 'wtf' attitude and calm down a bit:

    Capitals where introduced to have a counter to the original POS warfare. There is no POS warfare anymore because everyone kept shouting and screaming how awful that was. CCP changed it and yet - you kept your capitals - unchanged even.

    We - the players - twisted the original ideas of ships into some completely different roles and as a result we twisted the original ideas of many other things at the same time. Eve is intertwined and we created effects that where not appreciated by many. CCP gave us a lot of time and just watched - but they obviously where not blind.

    We as players have not been able to turn this wheel back - pretty human reaction as limiting ones abilities usually only happens when outside forces are at work. CCP is this outside force. Eve requires a change and change always means someone is going to suffer at least to some extend. Many others have suffered in other areas when changes where introduced for their line of gaming.

    Pay these fellow gamers a bit of respect and dont act out like the upcoming changes are more important and more hurting than others in the past. Try to stay calm and adopt first instead of pumping out the 100th idea how CCP should implement things. We love to claim to be the 'smarter' community and the smarter players compared to other games - but currently we behave as bad as players of 'the game who's name shall not be stated'.

    hear hear
    Masao Kurata
    Perkone
    Caldari State
    #1278 - 2014-10-15 17:41:40 UTC
    Excuse me for not reading the full 64 pages to see whether this has been mentioned (surely it has, right? People do actually log onto sisi and test changes, right?), but at least there doesn't seem to be any developer acknowledgement so...

    The system described in the dev blog and later updates is NOT what is implemented on sisi. There is a severe bug in the sisi implementation causing you to get the jump activation timer for your next jump instead of your current jump. Let me quote the dev blog:

    "After a jump is complete but before your fatigue is increased, you gain a jump cooldown timer. The length of this timer is a number of minutes equal to your jump fatigue (before being increased by that jump!),"

    The expected result of jumping with zero current fatigue (no timer displayed) is no jump activation timer (that's the in game name, same thing as the "jump cooldown timer" mentioned in the blog). The actual result is that you get the expected amount of fatigue but also get a jump activation timer equal to 1/10 of that fatigue, which you should not get according to the blog and later updates unless you jump again immediately after.

    This is filed as EBR-25104 and I'm rather concerned that it hasn't been addressed since you just have two lines of code in the wrong order.
    elitatwo
    Zansha Expansion
    #1279 - 2014-10-15 18:05:02 UTC
    ...all this talk about fatigue makes me sleepy..

    But I can say I am almost happy that they didn't nerf my missiles any further into useless and below.

    Eve Minions is recruiting.

    This is the law of ship progression!

    Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
    Rowells
    Blackwater USA Inc.
    Pandemic Horde
    #1280 - 2014-10-15 19:02:38 UTC
    Masao Kurata wrote:
    Excuse me for not reading the full 64 pages to see whether this has been mentioned (surely it has, right? People do actually log onto sisi and test changes, right?), but at least there doesn't seem to be any developer acknowledgement so...

    The system described in the dev blog and later updates is NOT what is implemented on sisi. There is a severe bug in the sisi implementation causing you to get the jump activation timer for your next jump instead of your current jump. Let me quote the dev blog:

    "After a jump is complete but before your fatigue is increased, you gain a jump cooldown timer. The length of this timer is a number of minutes equal to your jump fatigue (before being increased by that jump!),"

    The expected result of jumping with zero current fatigue (no timer displayed) is no jump activation timer (that's the in game name, same thing as the "jump cooldown timer" mentioned in the blog). The actual result is that you get the expected amount of fatigue but also get a jump activation timer equal to 1/10 of that fatigue, which you should not get according to the blog and later updates unless you jump again immediately after.

    This is filed as EBR-25104 and I'm rather concerned that it hasn't been addressed since you just have two lines of code in the wrong order.

    as i understand from test server forums posts, the changes are not completely in their final state. Not sure why or when they will be set in place properly, but as of now the sisi mechanics are not reflective of the final product.