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[Phoebe] Long Distance Travel Changes - updates!

First post First post First post
Author
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1221 - 2014-10-14 15:41:13 UTC
Moloney wrote:
xttz wrote:
Moloney wrote:
Ccp, for the love of God, please grow a pair end ensure that there is n't a bloody obvious workaround to your up coming jump distance changes.

Power blocks are simply going to have taxi alts to move / swap out pilots to move caps.

The change is utterly useless unless it cannot be circumvented with the usual player ingenuity/exploitation.


So what you're saying is that Interceptors need a nerf?!?!


Learn to read or go get mittens to read it for you if all intelligence in your coalition is in one member.

But since it would be a heavily propaganda influenced recitation here is the statement in less words:

Attach equal cooldown to pilots and ship.

Why do I need to incur any jump fatigue at all? Interceptors cover territory using gates only faster than a fatigue-bonused ship does taking jump bridges at any meaningful distance, and do it much more safely to boot.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Panther X
Destructive Influence
Northern Coalition.
#1222 - 2014-10-14 16:27:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Panther X
Mike Azariah wrote:
Panther X wrote:
We're going to bump the max range of black ops ships up slightly to 8LY, and likewise give them a ~50% fatigue bonus


I was looking at this, and was thinking, "OK, I like the idea of a reduction in fatigue, but..wouldn't a reduction in the timer be more beneficial to a black ops pilot?"

Think about it, whats the black ops main defense? Get in, blap, GTFO.


Except Cap pilots would use Blops ships as cooling towers, travel in cap and park in a Blops to speed up recovery. Not to hit and run, just to recover

m


Maybe, but if I'm moving a super, that's not so easy. I will have to have caches of black ops all over the place. When they cost a billion a hull, that's still not going to be a financially feasible plan. So, ok I carry one in my SMA. But wait, where does my super go while I'm doing this workaround? Into a sitter you say? OK, did we conveniently have a sitter alt sitting in a station at this deployment area? No, it's in hostile territory. And I'm certainly not going to let a super just sit unpiloted in hostile territory.

Your argument is a good one, but still not a reason to not give blops the bonus.

My Titan smells of rich Corinthian Leather...

Presidente Gallente
Dark-Rising
Wrecking Machine.
#1223 - 2014-10-14 17:17:13 UTC
Moving ops in Blockade Runners with cruiser hull and stuff will be fun P
Jessica Danikov
Network Danikov
#1224 - 2014-10-14 17:41:06 UTC
As per http://themittani.com/features/breaking-fatigue-ducking-new-speed-limit I feel the changes are insufficient and need more work to more robustly prevent loopholes exploiting and bypassing the fatigue mechanic.

TL;DR, the example in the devblog makes it appear like a massive nerf, but there are ways around it that the largest coalitions have the resources to exploit fully due to the fact fatigue applies to characters only. Fatigue needs to apply to both the hull and the character to prevent such exploits. Hulls with fatigue should not be packagable or reprocessable, avoiding issues with packaging etc. (insurance fraud is a bit wasteful to avoid fatigue).
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1225 - 2014-10-14 18:19:50 UTC
Jessica Danikov wrote:
As per http://themittani.com/features/breaking-fatigue-ducking-new-speed-limit I feel the changes are insufficient and need more work to more robustly prevent loopholes exploiting and bypassing the fatigue mechanic.

TL;DR, the example in the devblog makes it appear like a massive nerf, but there are ways around it that the largest coalitions have the resources to exploit fully due to the fact fatigue applies to characters only. Fatigue needs to apply to both the hull and the character to prevent such exploits. Hulls with fatigue should not be packagable or reprocessable, avoiding issues with packaging etc. (insurance fraud is a bit wasteful to avoid fatigue).

There is nothing new in that blog that has not already been brought up since day one of the revision.
Nienna Leralonde
FunkSters
#1226 - 2014-10-14 18:23:20 UTC
eve is dead so this change makes sense.
Jessica Danikov
Network Danikov
#1227 - 2014-10-14 18:38:37 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Jessica Danikov wrote:
-snip-

There is nothing new in that blog that has not already been brought up since day one of the revision.


You're absolutely right, we told CCP Greyscale that people will use alts to bypass fatigue, and he said that it wasn't practical and wouldn't scale and that people wouldn't do it - just like CCP said way back when supercapitals would never proliferate and be a problem. Fact is, such an issue was dismissed a long while ago and not mentioned since and I think that's a mistake (I'm sure others agree).

CCP Greyscale respects people who sit down and do the maths and back up what they're saying with real figures, so there's the working and the why the changes aren't enough. Sure, it's not original, it's just thorough and backs up what people have been saying without fully justifying it so far.
Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1228 - 2014-10-14 18:49:35 UTC
Polo Marco wrote:
Lord TGR wrote:
I have no problems with occupancy-based systems (at least in theory, I'll reserve final judgement until CCP's system is revealed/playtested extensively). I do, however, have a problem with "scaling sov costs" systems, because they don't work, aren't sandboxy and just reeks of isk envy.


I do believe we beat this horse to death yesterday :D


Beat on this one a while. Tell me anything you see wrong with it.

Polo Marco wrote:
The operational range nerf here is intended to REPLACE the single jump range nerf in ALL ships.

Under this all ships will be treated EQUALLY.

Naval ships and aircraft in the real world all operate out of home ports or bases. There is plenty of practical realism here as a premise for this mechanic.

It will require a new implant.



The JUMP DRIVE CLONE and the JUMP PILOT IMPLANT.

1) In order to use a jump drive, a pilot must have this special implant installed.

2) This implant may be installed in only ONE clone per pilot.

3) He may not jump further than 32ly from where the jump drive clone is installed.

4) The jump drive clone must be in a STATION and cannot be in a clone bay.

5) The jump drive clone can only be moved ONCE EVERY SEVEN DAYS.

The move cooldown and range limit should not be written in stone. They are just my initial ideas.

The mechanic presented here has a number of advantages. It should prevent taxiing and makes transfer clones to move ship assets redundant.

I suggest that it will make it easier on FCs, players, and servers alike, over the existing plans, while sharply interdicting long range projection of power.

The negative effects on small player entities will not be nearly as bad as with the current plan

I also suggest that the troublesome, bumpy and game risky mechanic of allowing caps to use stargates be deferred till a later time, until we see how the new system works. I feel this particular change should get its own release so its effects can be more carefully measured.If left in there would be an issue involving jump capable ships that have gate moved out of range. I suggest in this case no jumping till back within range of the pilot's base.


If you can shoot a hole in it do it. If you don't like it tell me why. I'm not really looking for positive feedback. I'm looking for problems.

1) Your home port/base analogy is flawed. Ships/planes etc aren't bound to a port or base, they can move across the entire globe if they want to, all they need is for something to fill them up, just like caps do now.
2) If I get podded, and don't have this implant, then I'm completely unable to use caps?
3) If I'm in the wrong clone, then I'm completely unable to fly caps until I've jumpcloned into the "right clone", which essentially means jumpclones are unusable the instant I decide to become a caps pilot.
4) If I'm in a supercarrier or titan, then I'm going to have to eject out of the supercarrier/titan to "change base", thus either requiring that I bring along a second char just to deploy, setup my own tower just to change the station the "jump drive clone" is, or chance it and eject in a public POS. I'm sure nothing'll go wrong there.
5) If I buy a cap >32ly from where my JDC is, then I'm going to have to wait up to 7 days just to go fetch it, then move as close as I can get, dock up, wait 7 days to move my JDC to the current system, then do the final leg of the move, wait another 7 days and finally get the JDC in the system I actually want to "station out of".
6) If I want to move from one part of the map to another in 15 minutes, all I have to do is have 2 (or 3 or more, I can't be arsed to check the distance of the entire map) chars with this implant, pre-setup in 32ly intervals and basically just pony express across the entire map.
smokeydapot
Moon Of The Pheonix
#1229 - 2014-10-14 19:23:22 UTC  |  Edited by: smokeydapot
so I listened to this got to 9:29 and had to get medical attention because I laughed so much.

CCP Greyscale wrote:

I guess trying to mainly slot them in as force multipliers


Ok so you want capitals to be force multipliers ok all well and good, Now can you answer ( and I'm being deadly serious ) the following.

1. If you want capitals to be force multipliers why have them ALL have the same jump range ?

2. The best force multiplier is a carrier in its proper mode it brings dreadnaughts out of hibernation and causes calls to arms.

Have you given any thought to reducing the cool down on carriers and giving them a better than 5Ly range ?

After all not everyone uses them as cyno hopping drone boats ( and I have stated my suggested fix to the hoard'O drones problem ).

3. The proliferation of carriers dropping sentry drones ( mainly because they don't move and they can carry many flights ) has in recent times lead to mass carrier blobs from major alliances because of the sheer number they can carry, If just loaded with sentry drones they can hold 3200 why is this issue not being attended to rather than jump drives like what you did with drones and super carriers ?

4. Most well maybe all of the null sec beginners will have use of a carrier before jump freighter therefore why restrict the use of them to such extremes especially as the "new boys on the block" more than likely only have one maybe two pilots that can use them in an engagement ?

5. Carrier Triage drops are an excellent force multiplier and I see this dying out rather rapidly in favour of the 3200 sentry drone carriers, Why not restrict carriers to using fighters only ?

6. If the problem with force projection with capital ships is with super capital ships why hit ALL capital ships or jump drive capable ships especially since you promise future iteration ?

7. Why did you not balance capital ships before arbitrarily hitting jump drives ?

In a nutshell I still see this "patch" as being nothing conducive for players big or small bringing jump drives in line with every other class then slapping an egg timer on it, Reduce Ly distance but do it in a way that allows play styles to still exist.

If the problem is with super capitals then bash them not the entire jump drive range.
If the problem is with the hoard'O drone carriers then restrict what they can launch.

You're taking a hammer to the entire jump drive / jump bridge mechanic to fix a selected problem the projection of power, But without understanding what the power actually is you're trying to curb you're just poking at things with eyes closed headphones in saying " that will fix it and if not ahh well it's a start".
Panther X
Destructive Influence
Northern Coalition.
#1230 - 2014-10-14 19:26:48 UTC
Lord TGR wrote:
Polo Marco wrote:
Lord TGR wrote:
I have no problems with occupancy-based systems (at least in theory, I'll reserve final judgement until CCP's system is revealed/playtested extensively). I do, however, have a problem with "scaling sov costs" systems, because they don't work, aren't sandboxy and just reeks of isk envy.


I do believe we beat this horse to death yesterday :D


Beat on this one a while. Tell me anything you see wrong with it.

Polo Marco wrote:
The operational range nerf here is intended to REPLACE the single jump range nerf in ALL ships.

Under this all ships will be treated EQUALLY.

Naval ships and aircraft in the real world all operate out of home ports or bases. There is plenty of practical realism here as a premise for this mechanic.

It will require a new implant.



The JUMP DRIVE CLONE and the JUMP PILOT IMPLANT.

1) In order to use a jump drive, a pilot must have this special implant installed.

2) This implant may be installed in only ONE clone per pilot.

3) He may not jump further than 32ly from where the jump drive clone is installed.

4) The jump drive clone must be in a STATION and cannot be in a clone bay.

5) The jump drive clone can only be moved ONCE EVERY SEVEN DAYS.

The move cooldown and range limit should not be written in stone. They are just my initial ideas.

The mechanic presented here has a number of advantages. It should prevent taxiing and makes transfer clones to move ship assets redundant.

I suggest that it will make it easier on FCs, players, and servers alike, over the existing plans, while sharply interdicting long range projection of power.

The negative effects on small player entities will not be nearly as bad as with the current plan

I also suggest that the troublesome, bumpy and game risky mechanic of allowing caps to use stargates be deferred till a later time, until we see how the new system works. I feel this particular change should get its own release so its effects can be more carefully measured.If left in there would be an issue involving jump capable ships that have gate moved out of range. I suggest in this case no jumping till back within range of the pilot's base.


If you can shoot a hole in it do it. If you don't like it tell me why. I'm not really looking for positive feedback. I'm looking for problems.

1) Your home port/base analogy is flawed. Ships/planes etc aren't bound to a port or base, they can move across the entire globe if they want to, all they need is for something to fill them up, just like caps do now.
2) If I get podded, and don't have this implant, then I'm completely unable to use caps?
3) If I'm in the wrong clone, then I'm completely unable to fly caps until I've jumpcloned into the "right clone", which essentially means jumpclones are unusable the instant I decide to become a caps pilot.
4) If I'm in a supercarrier or titan, then I'm going to have to eject out of the supercarrier/titan to "change base", thus either requiring that I bring along a second char just to deploy, setup my own tower just to change the station the "jump drive clone" is, or chance it and eject in a public POS. I'm sure nothing'll go wrong there.
5) If I buy a cap >32ly from where my JDC is, then I'm going to have to wait up to 7 days just to go fetch it, then move as close as I can get, dock up, wait 7 days to move my JDC to the current system, then do the final leg of the move, wait another 7 days and finally get the JDC in the system I actually want to "station out of".
6) If I want to move from one part of the map to another in 15 minutes, all I have to do is have 2 (or 3 or more, I can't be arsed to check the distance of the entire map) chars with this implant, pre-setup in 32ly intervals and basically just pony express across the entire map.



My head hurts. Yeah being a super pilot totally nullifies all of your conditions for this implant. Interesting idea, but restricting capitals to a single clone doesn't make any logistical sense. If it was a special implant like the special edition genaural-gold-pod-blingy-thingy, which once installed is on all your clones and cannot be removed. But then what sense does that make other than to make you spend isk on something you don't need?

My Titan smells of rich Corinthian Leather...

Polo Marco
Four Winds
#1231 - 2014-10-14 20:48:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Polo Marco
Lord TGR wrote:
Your home port/base analogy is flawed. Ships/planes etc aren't bound to a port or base, they can move across the entire globe if they want to, all they need is for something to fill them up, just like caps do now.
Not seriously. For example, U S Navy carriers in the Persian Gulf rely on Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean as their base of operations. Deployments into and out of the region for individual ships only Occur once every few months. Commercial air crews are rarely away from home longer than overnight, even on trans-ocean flights.

Lord TGR wrote:
2) If I get podded, and don't have this implant, then I'm completely unable to use caps?
Correct. Best have a spare. Seeding and/or low production/bp cost can make 'throttling' avoidable.

With regard to the implant itself, I couldn't think of a better way to 'mark' the dedicated jump drive clone that both the server and the player could recognize. I'd like to hear any ideas on that, as I would rather my cap pilots not have to sacrifice a slot myself.

Lord TGR wrote:
3) If I'm in the wrong clone, then I'm completely unable to fly caps until I've jumpcloned into the "right clone", which essentially means jumpclones are unusable the instant I decide to become a caps pilot.
Not unusable, just unusable for quick redeployment. You can still pop over to hisec for doing a bit of Jita business. You can use your 'ratting' or 'repping' fits in a home system, just without the luxury of the 'get out of jail free' button for insta escapes.

Lord TGR wrote:
4) If I'm in a supercarrier or titan, then I'm going to have to eject out of the supercarrier/titan to "change base", thus either requiring that I bring along a second char just to deploy, setup my own tower just to change the station the "jump drive clone" is, or chance it and eject in a public POS. I'm sure nothing'll go wrong there.
Damn right. The set up and maintenance of alliance centers of operations will require much more extensive advanced planning than before, and will mirror the complexities of handling such major strategic assets in all big RL navies. This is INTENTIONAL and will greatly curtail the cluster wide 'drop in' terror that is the nightmare of all server nodes and FCs involved in smaller local ops. Most super and ALL Titan pilots have holding alts anyway. These ships were NOT intended as personal vessels, but as alliance properties.

Eve teaches hard lessons. Don't blame the game for your own failures.

Polo Marco
Four Winds
#1232 - 2014-10-14 20:49:31 UTC
Lord TGR wrote:
5) If I buy a cap >32ly from where my JDC is, then I'm going to have to wait up to 7 days just to go fetch it, then move as close as I can get, dock up, wait 7 days to move my JDC to the current system, then do the final leg of the move, wait another 7 days and finally get the JDC in the system I actually want to "station out of".
MOst makers can deliver to a closer station, but yeah, anything over 64ly will require help and/or a clone move.Certainly an inconvenience but then how many individual pilots buy more than 1 carrier a week? ;)


Lord TGR wrote:
6) If I want to move from one part of the map to another in 15 minutes, all I have to do is have 2 (or 3 or more, I can't be arsed to check the distance of the entire map) chars with this implant, pre-setup in 32ly intervals and basically just pony express across the entire map.
Sure, but ferrying and caching ships will be possible under the existing plan. But since a fleet = pilots + ships this will render this tactic minimally effective, as the dilution of pilot density would severely compromise local strike power. You can build a ship in a month, a pilot in a year, but how long does a fleet team take to build?

Eve teaches hard lessons. Don't blame the game for your own failures.

Polo Marco
Four Winds
#1233 - 2014-10-14 21:04:30 UTC
Panther X wrote:
My head hurts. Yeah being a super pilot totally nullifies all of your conditions for this implant. Interesting idea, but restricting capitals to a single clone doesn't make any logistical sense. If it was a special implant like the special edition genaural-gold-pod-blingy-thingy, which once installed is on all your clones and cannot be removed. But then what sense does that make other than to make you spend isk on something you don't need?


Supercaps were never intended as personal vehicles. With this system they will be much more tied to alliance ops and facilities. I realize this will restrict the play options for some lone wolf blappers out there, but with careful set up and skillful intel you will still have full play capability within range of your base, rather than be hobbled by a shortened jump distance. Quick redeployments will be severely curtailed, but if seven days appears too long the devs can reduce it.

With regard to the implant itself, I couldn't think of a better way to 'mark' the dedicated jump drive clone that both the server and the player could recognize. I'd like to hear any ideas on that, as I would rather my cap pilots not have to sacrifice a slot myself.

Eve teaches hard lessons. Don't blame the game for your own failures.

Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1234 - 2014-10-14 21:26:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord TGR
You know why I didn't shoot holes in the idea until you started nagging people about it?

It's because unlike your scaling sov cost idea, it'd actually do what you think it'd do without being absolutely cockstabby. I don't like the things I brought up, but it would be something we could live with if CCP had actually implemented it.

Edit: But, you asked, so I provided. vOv
Polo Marco
Four Winds
#1235 - 2014-10-14 21:33:37 UTC
Lord TGR wrote:
You know why I didn't shoot holes in the idea until you started nagging people about it?

It's because unlike your scaling sov cost idea, it'd actually do what you think it'd do without being absolutely cockstabby. I don't like the things I brought up, but it would be something we could live with if CCP had actually implemented it.

Edit: But, you asked, so I provided. vOv



NP thanks for the feedback, and if you think of a better mechanism than an implant, post it.

Eve teaches hard lessons. Don't blame the game for your own failures.

Panther X
Destructive Influence
Northern Coalition.
#1236 - 2014-10-14 21:38:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Panther X
Polo Marco wrote:
Panther X wrote:
My head hurts. Yeah being a super pilot totally nullifies all of your conditions for this implant. Interesting idea, but restricting capitals to a single clone doesn't make any logistical sense. If it was a special implant like the special edition genaural-gold-pod-blingy-thingy, which once installed is on all your clones and cannot be removed. But then what sense does that make other than to make you spend isk on something you don't need?


Supercaps were never intended as personal vehicles. With this system they will be much more tied to alliance ops and facilities. I realize this will restrict the play options for some lone wolf blappers out there, but with careful set up and skillful intel you will still have full play capability within range of your base, rather than be hobbled by a shortened jump distance. Quick redeployments will be severely curtailed, but if seven days appears too long the devs can reduce it.

With regard to the implant itself, I couldn't think of a better way to 'mark' the dedicated jump drive clone that both the server and the player could recognize. I'd like to hear any ideas on that, as I would rather my cap pilots not have to sacrifice a slot myself.


Yeah I see what you mean. But I still require the freedom to clone to hisec to drive my jump freighter, jump to my home pocket for some carrier ratting and then back to my super for delicious tears, and finally to my blingy blops for even more tears.

(EDIT: Not that this is what I do currently, but what I could do, if in fact I owned this stuff Blink)

Having ONE clone specified ONLY for doing cynosural activities makes us own a baseball team just to do the **** we do on a daily basis, and that's not what I signed up for. Sure, I have a boatload of alts, but they do other stuff than be my personal clone army.

It has some merit in that it is very restrictive in what you can do, but what does it do other than make everyone own 15 alts just to accomplish daily activities? What is the point? What are you trying to accomplish other than totally ruining the end game experience (the new player experience is bad enough) for people who have invested tens or hundreds of billions of isk and thousands of man-hours in acquiring and maintaining these beasts? I am glad that I am in an alliance that supports our growth as capital pilots, and that we get gudfights with the "otherguys". That's what keeps me here.

I have busted my ass for the past two years to get where I am.

A lot of things have changed from what CCP initially designed them for, thats the nature of change. It happens.

But a draconian measure such as restricting cynosural activities to one specific clone per toon is a subscription killer for sure. Look at the uproar that the range restriction scratched up.

I don't see it happening.

My Titan smells of rich Corinthian Leather...

Panther X
Destructive Influence
Northern Coalition.
#1237 - 2014-10-14 21:56:53 UTC
Polo Marco wrote:
Panther X wrote:
My head hurts. Yeah being a super pilot totally nullifies all of your conditions for this implant. Interesting idea, but restricting capitals to a single clone doesn't make any logistical sense. If it was a special implant like the special edition genaural-gold-pod-blingy-thingy, which once installed is on all your clones and cannot be removed. But then what sense does that make other than to make you spend isk on something you don't need?


Supercaps were never intended as personal vehicles. With this system they will be much more tied to alliance ops and facilities. I realize this will restrict the play options for some lone wolf blappers out there, but with careful set up and skillful intel you will still have full play capability within range of your base, rather than be hobbled by a shortened jump distance. Quick redeployments will be severely curtailed, but if seven days appears too long the devs can reduce it.

With regard to the implant itself, I couldn't think of a better way to 'mark' the dedicated jump drive clone that both the server and the player could recognize. I'd like to hear any ideas on that, as I would rather my cap pilots not have to sacrifice a slot myself.


But if it had to happen, it wouldn't be a slot 1-10 that are currently in use, it would have to be a special slot like the genaural gold pod, once installed, there's no coming back.
But again I don't see it as really being necessary; I've already spent god knows how long training Jump Drive operation, Jump Drive Calibration and Jump Fuel Conservation. That was torture enough, I shouldn't have to buy another dumb implant just to fly the damn ships.

My Titan smells of rich Corinthian Leather...

Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1238 - 2014-10-14 22:29:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Sgt Ocker
I don't know what future plans are for nulsec.
I do know, limiting the "fun" aspect of the game with player fatigue is a game killer for many.

These changes - So now everyone can use capitals in their home space without fear of being dropped by Goons, BL or PL from the other side of nulsec.. HOW FUKIN BORING.
Knowing they were out there was what made small gang capitals so much fun. You just never knew what was gong to happen.
Screw making nulsec and loswec safer by limiting capital use - If you aren't prepared to lose it or "can't afford" to lose it - DON"T FUKIN FLY IT
You want to reduce the ability of the big capital groups to hotdrop from across the universe - Reduced jump range with a ship based - Time to next jump - is all that is needed. Fatigue on players rather than the ship is going to be a huge failure as alt armies can still get capitals where they want them.

CCP have now taken on the role of protector from capital hotdrops - So much for not interfering with actual game play.
CCP have decided to dictate to everyone who plays eve how it will be played with a bunch of so far secret changes. So much for not interfering with actual game play.

If CCP wanted to be professional about these changes and honestly wanted player feedback to help guide the direction the game takes, it would all be available for players to see and comment on.
We don't want to reveal more just yet, is saying - You as the player don't need to know, we are doing this and you'll get the information as we see fit.
Long term plans for the game you, the players built are no business of you, the player.

Capital jump drive fuel increases - This change will help to balance ice usage due to the loss of pos's from industry changes - Well that just went out the window with the introduction of limited jump ability due to fatigue. I do feel sorry for all those dedicated ice miners (not really) your time vs reward just got shot to hell.

- - - - - - -
Super corps and mega alliances have control of nulsec now - limiting the ability of everyone to move about is not going to change that.

Stage 1 of the ongoing nulsec changes was industry, mining and increased fuel for capitals
(this all looked good, until)

Stage 2 removes or at best limits many of the benefits given in stage 1

Whatever happens from now on will only create a nice little harmonious nulsec.
Everyone will need as many blues as possible to ensure supply of minerals, moon goo, salvage and anything else needed to build an empire based on who has the best ratting ships and the biggest ceptor gangs

There will be no major wars or conflicts, as someone I spoke to earlier said, sov will never be free and the costs of holding sov will only increase, with the limitations on movement holding sov to keep your enemies at bay, sort of becomes less important therefore less costly to alliances.
You won't need to hold sov to use the space, you won't need it to stop someone else using it. If someone tries to move in next door to you and you like them ok they can stay but if you don't like them, you just push them out. No need to go to the expense of taking sov, a few quick fights and its done.

Big alliances will only need to hold sov in key points around any region to lock that region down.
Aside from wormholes which are random, there are limited ways to get into most regions, this limitation only grows with such limited range and punitive fatigue changes. So large alliances become "The Doormen" of nulsec. Goons are already ensuring their status as "Doormen" with plans to cache capitals in strategic places. I'm sure others are doing the same.

For smaller alliances and corps;
You want to move to nulsec, either the doorman likes you or you pay them, 2 very distinct choices. No-one will need capital ships to fight for a region, constellation or even a system - Those who live there already have caps there and the only way for you to get caps there is through the blue donut. Which of course will get bigger because of the increased need being self sufficient.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Polo Marco
Four Winds
#1239 - 2014-10-14 22:30:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Polo Marco
Panther X wrote:


Yeah I see what you mean. But I still require the freedom to clone to hisec to drive my jump freighter, jump to my home pocket for some carrier ratting and then back to my super for delicious tears, and finally to my blingy blops for even more tears.

(EDIT: Not that this is what I do currently, but what I could do, if in fact I owned this stuff Blink)

Having ONE clone specified ONLY for doing cynosural activities makes us own a baseball team just to do the **** we do on a daily basis, and that's not what I signed up for. Sure, I have a boatload of alts, but they do other stuff than be my personal clone army.

It has some merit in that it is very restrictive in what you can do, but what does it do other than make everyone own 15 alts just to accomplish daily activities? What is the point? What are you trying to accomplish other than totally ruining the end game experience (the new player experience is bad enough) for people who have invested tens or hundreds of billions of isk and thousands of man-hours in acquiring and maintaining these beasts? I am glad that I am in an alliance that supports our growth as capital pilots, and that we get gudfights with the "otherguys". That's what keeps me here.

I have busted my ass for the past two years to get where I am.

A lot of things have changed from what CCP initially designed them for, thats the nature of change. It happens.

But a draconian measure such as restricting cynosural activities to one specific clone per toon is a subscription killer for sure. Look at the uproar that the range restriction scratched up.

I don't see it happening.


I hear ya man. I was a PnP Dungeons and dragons GM for years, and endgame management requires very careful thought and extreme caution. OP items can quickly unbalance your game. Once you give them it's almost impossible to take them back. But now we got these beasts, and it's too late to take 'em away.

With regard to the implant itself, I couldn't think of a better way to 'mark' the dedicated jump drive clone that both the server and the player could recognize. I'd like to hear any ideas on that, as I would rather my cap pilots not have to sacrifice a slot myself.

Personally I don't have any problems with JFs, Rorqs and Blops being exempt from these rules, since their roles are already so limited. But I'm getting the impression that Greyscale et al want to curtail all forms of galaxy spanning movement in anything larger than an SC. Guess they didn't grow up on 'Star Trek' huh?
But carriers and dreads have to go with the big boys or its a useless idea. As I mentioned above you could still 'park' a carrier in a favorite ratting system and use it, but you don't have the ejection seat anymore.

As far as the baseball team goes, you already have cynos to worry about, and holding alts for supers and titans. I don't think the need for these is overly restrictive considering the power of these monsters. as for hisec /lowsec, most of the players I know who have cap alts have at least 2. Polo here operates mainly in hisec and is JF trained, and the combat alt mostly flies in null anyway.

As for subscription breaking, rage/quitters are a lot like dogs. The ones that bark don't bite, and the ones that bite don't bark first. They are gonna be watching the server stats anyway.....

And really, is this anymore draconian than hobbling these proud beasts to a mere 5ly cap at max skills?

Eve teaches hard lessons. Don't blame the game for your own failures.

Polo Marco
Four Winds
#1240 - 2014-10-14 22:37:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Polo Marco
BLOOP double post..

Eve teaches hard lessons. Don't blame the game for your own failures.