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[Phoebe] Long Distance Travel Changes - updates!

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Dwissi
Miners Delight Reborn
#1001 - 2014-10-11 11:51:49 UTC
Polo Marco wrote:
Alp Khan wrote:


The seemingly positive responses in this thread strictly acknowledge and celebrate a) The end of capital and supercapital combat projection b) The fact that Greyscale backtracked and did not completely annihilate null logistics, which is essential for life in null and for EVE economy and markets in any region of the game

The fallacy you took up does not change the obvious outcome that this poorly thought, theme park oriented and sandbox killing Greyscale plan will eventually result in the loss of more subscriptions and will be remembered as a nail on the coffin of EVE Online.

Please stop using similar weak fallacies in the future. Such attempts of obvious manipulation in support of some personal agenda you might have is simply an insult to the intelligence of anybody who is following this thread.



The only people in these forums who listen to the "end of Eve gloom and doom" rant are the trolls. They delight in "askinforallyourstuffs" and "realquittersbiomass" responses. Is this travel nerf a bad idea? Absolutely. But will Eve die tomorrow because of it? Of course not.

Subscriptions and logins have been tailing off for the last year. Some failed peripheral projects have left CCP with an overabundance of talented and hardworking, coders , modelers, and designers. The result is a massive burst of features, improvements, and content the likes of which I have never seen in ANYWHERE else in my eleven and some odd years (six right here) of adventures in the MMO world. Let me tell you this:

WHEN CCP GETS IT RIGHT, THEY GET IT RIGHT BETTER THAN ANY OTHER PUBLISHER.

CCP Seagull has got her shop running at capacity, and I for one am impressed and grateful.

But I also think that maybe they should slow down some. Harebrained schemes like this would never proceed to the production phase with proper critical review in house. When the developers don't find the devil's advocate until an idea reaches the player base the they need to step back and take a look at their vetting process. The mechanics proposed here break so many other aspects of gameplay that there is too big a risk in simply "deploying it and seeing what happens" I'm still blogging this in hopes of avoiding a train wreck, but like most Eve players I'll cheerfully loot every car that I can when it happens. Neither my subscription or my job is on the line here.

These jump drive changes come packaged in a crate with "ACME" printed its side.

BEEP BEEP


I basically couldnt agree more to your statements about the CCP does it right etc things - but i heavily disagree with the slow down part.

Let me use a different picture how i see the entire thing:

I throw a vase onto the floor, it breaks into many pieces and i put my kid to put it back together. Everytime it just manages to fix it I throw it back and it breaks into new pieces - thats what would happen if things get slowed down. I for once would prefer the 'once for all' approach a lot more than the constant smashing of it over and over again.

Proud designer of glasses for geeky dovakins

Before someone complains again: grr everyone

Greed is the death of loyalty
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1002 - 2014-10-11 12:16:15 UTC
I have a request for the SiSi server.

Can we all get temporary all V skills so that we can all test capital ship changes?
cecil b d'milf
Perkone
Caldari State
#1003 - 2014-10-11 12:28:34 UTC
GeeBee wrote:
The carrier is the entry level ship for anyone getting into being an independent nullsec player or entity.


and you wonder why CCP needs to take action ?
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#1004 - 2014-10-11 12:34:26 UTC
Jaiimez Skor wrote:
Keith Planck wrote:
there goes incentives to include indy production in nullsec
rip

Have you actually tried industry in nullsec on an alliance scale, you shall find you have more megacyte than you ever know what to do with, but literally begging people for pyerite, and offering to sell body parts for some, the increased range to JF's is temporary Greyscale said this, part of Phase 2 is to rebalance nullsec this will include making it possible for alliances to be self sufficient. And he said once this occurs the JF will be reviewed again. Right now no alliance can survive without empire because of the requirement to ship in low end minerals, and until they rebalance this dependancy nerding JF logistics is just going to ruin the game.

Hey guys lets go on a fleet, oh we can't were still waiting for our local suppliers to get enough trit to build anything.


Bolded what's been true since the early days and what keeps EvE economy alive and thriving.

With complete empire <-> nullsec independence, all you'll get are secluded, medieval like communities only centered around themselves, with a great reduction in PvP / conflicts because all they'll care for is to cure their small garden.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1005 - 2014-10-11 13:06:01 UTC
Dirk MacGirk wrote:
What if we did this a little different.

The jump fatigue and range changes to capitals excluding the Jump Freighter, are absolutely fine. However, what if jump freighters had a fatigue-reduction bonus of 125% rather than 90%? Not only could you haul some things, but you could actually earn back fatigue credit. Now, before you say I'm crazy or just trolling, just remember that I am not advocating giving this Fatigue Eater bonus to other industrials. That would be lunacy.


Interesting thought, whilst not sure using a jump freighter do do this would be ideal, but some ACTIVE task to reduce fatigue would be a very interesting concept, and give those waiting for cooldown something to do as well.
That shouldn't take away from the goals, and might make things more interesting, and encourage jump freighter pilots to have other roles too.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Drigo Segvian
Black Fox Marauders
Pen Is Out
#1006 - 2014-10-11 14:04:15 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
So basically you caved in to the 0.0 carebears.



No, they are just going to phase it in while other areas are also adjusted for a more complete change
Kiryen O'Bannon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1007 - 2014-10-11 14:25:19 UTC
Alp Khan wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Polo Marco wrote:
Just say NO!!! to timers.


Timers are an interesting mechanic. They always seem to suck to no end when a group is on the offensive and they hit the timer brick wall and have to wrap up the fleet and reform at a later date. For defenders they are a blessing. Offering them time to form a defensive fleet, call in help, anything to try and repel the attackers. Well, unless of course you forgot to stront the tower? Ugh

Love them or hate them timers are needed. Just imagine your group just assembled this fancy new tower in a system to call home. You group doesn't have crazy good numbers in all time zones and you all slowly call it a night. As you all log back into the game the next day, you notice your POS is now in reinforce mode. Because of the timer now you have a chance to form some form a defense for when they come back. Basically a chance to fight for the moon.

Now imagine if there was no timer.

Your buddies and you would log back in and find the POS completely destroyed and most likely staring down the angry barrels of an enemy POS weapon system. All without even having a chance to defend your precious POS. Imagine if it was a station? You go to work with a decent amount of assets in a player built station, flip some burgers all day, come home and now the station belongs to someone else and all your internet spaceship stuff is trapped inside.

Why bother living and investing in a system, moon, POS, whatever if it can be snatched away from you in silly time zone wars without even having a chance to have some input into the game to keep it?

Players need to feel it is worth the risk of losing these things. This is done via rewards for investing in living out in null or holding a moon or what have you. No reward is worth the risk of losing everything because you decided to sleep, work, go to school, step out to the bar, go to Fanfest or basically have a normal life. Everyone would just dwell in NPC stations and never venture into the deep dark depths of the unknown*.

So while what we know as a timer might be changed, the principal will most likely be intact. A way to offer the defender a chance to actually defend without get an IV of Redbull and slip into some zombie, insomnia mode losing more weight than Christian Bale in the 'Machinist'.

Or, perhaps there is another reason for the timers, but this was always the one that made the most sense to me. I hope this drawn out version helps. If not, I'm sure there is legions of people typing furiously away to loudly tell me I am wrong in every possible way. Big smile


You are taking up a fallacy here. You are likening the space asset defensive timers, which are absolutely necessary, as EVE is a game that does not offer different servers to different timezones, to the arbitrary timers placed on invidivual characters, because Greyscale does not know any better.

Defensive timers are there to give owners time and opportunity to form up for a showdown between them and attackers. EVE players live in different time zones, and their schedules vary greatly as a result. As such, to prevent EVE from becoming a game of time zones (and poopsocking) defensive timers are rightly put into place.

In stark contrast, arbitrary timer restrictions placed on individual characters is never a smart way to handle anything. Sooner or later, the individual player will have enough and decide to invest his spare time in another game that does not invoke arbitrary, poorly thought mechanics.

The seemingly positive responses in this thread strictly acknowledge and celebrate a) The end of capital and supercapital combat projection b) The fact that Greyscale backtracked and did not completely annihilate null logistics, which is essential for life in null and for EVE economy and markets in any region of the game

The fallacy you took up does not change the obvious outcome that this poorly thought, theme park oriented and sandbox killing Greyscale plan will eventually result in the loss of more subscriptions and will be remembered as a nail on the coffin of EVE Online.

Please stop using similar weak fallacies in the future. Such attempts of obvious manipulation in support of some personal agenda you might have is simply an insult to the intelligence of anybody who is following this thread.


You have cited no logical fallacy, nor explained how one was committed. "Fallacy" does not mean an error in fact nor a questionable prediction of the future, it means an error in the construction of an argument

Eternal Father, King of birth, /Who didst create the heaven and earth, /And bid the planets and the sun/ Their own appointed orbits run; /O hear us when we seek thy grace /For those who soar through outer space.
Kiryen O'Bannon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1008 - 2014-10-11 14:43:22 UTC
GeeBee wrote:
This witch hunt of nerfing power projection makes be believe that CCP has lost sight of this being a sandbox MMO. All these silly regulations and stipulations and tribulations closing loops holes. Its a sandbox, what you're currently doing is overkill.


The "Sandbox Argument", in fact, is a perfect example of fallacious reasoning - specifically Non Sequiter and Special Pleading, and can easily be countered by Reduction to Absurdity.

All game mechanics and rules are regulations and stipulations of some sort. The fact that this is a game about spaceships and not wizards and dragons is a stipulation. The fact that a "cruiser" is larger than a "frigate" is a stipulation. Every game mechanic is a "Regulation" of some sort.

It therefore does not follow (Non Sequiter) that there is something wrong with the proposed changes simply because they introduce new and different stipulations, regulations, or close "loopholes". All game changes and updates do that in some respect; in fact even creating the game in the first place did so. Your argument, if taken literally, is that changes to the game are bad because they are changes and that a "sandbox" precludes balancing or improvement attempts (regardless of the merits of the individual attempts) because it might somehow affect player behavior. This is your argument taken to its logical conclusion and thereby reduced to absurdity.

There is no strict wall between "themepark" and "sandbox" but it defies reason to suggest that creating new rules (the "box" part of the sandBOX) to revitalize areas of the game that are stagnating inherently changes the game into a themepark.

What you are REALLY trying to argue (and will no doubt deny in a fit of "you can't read my mind!" despite making your real intentions pretty transparent) is that these changes somehow make the game "themepark" because you don't like them. You have some arbitrary line or criteria in your mind based on the gameplay you want to engage in, and this somehow violates it, so therefore it magically becomes "too themepark". This is Special Pleading at it's finest "These changes are too themepark and bad for the game because I don't like them!"

Like most people, you then make the case that this somehow means disaster for EVE. It is a common conceit of MMO players anywhere that any change they personally disapprove of means mass exodus from the game, but if MMO companies actually listened to such nonsense, we'd still be playing Everquest without any expansions.

Eternal Father, King of birth, /Who didst create the heaven and earth, /And bid the planets and the sun/ Their own appointed orbits run; /O hear us when we seek thy grace /For those who soar through outer space.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#1009 - 2014-10-11 14:46:21 UTC  |  Edited by: MeBiatch
would you be willing to add a new regional gate from Tash-Murkon to Stain since it will now be impossible to make the jump post patch? That would really open up the south and add loads of new content

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Celly S
Neutin Local LLC
#1010 - 2014-10-11 14:55:29 UTC
cecil b d'milf wrote:
GeeBee wrote:
The carrier is the entry level ship for anyone getting into being an independent nullsec player or entity.


and you wonder why CCP needs to take action ?


my first capital was an orca, then a freighter, then a JF, then a carrier.

I can't speak to being an independent player if they mean "solo" because I've always had friends in the game who have helped me and worked with me, and allowed me to help them and work with them during my entire time in the game, however, I can state with 100% certainty that a carrier was NOT the first thing on my list when I moved to null...

To date I have probably used my carriers (on all of my accounts that have them) a total of less than 15 times and most of those were goofing off with them for the lols of a reaper fielding fighters, an Ihub or POS bash or something like that...

if someone really believes that you can't be viable in nullsec without one?, then it is clear that they have a distorted view of some aspects and CCP does need to step in to stop the proliferation of such a silly idea.

There are far more important things to consider in Null than whether I have a carrier sitting in my hangar or not


o/
Celly Smunt

Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator.
Drigo Segvian
Black Fox Marauders
Pen Is Out
#1011 - 2014-10-11 15:00:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Drigo Segvian
MeBiatch wrote:
would you be willing to add a new regional gate from Tash-Murkon to Stain since it will now be impossible to make the jump post patch? That would really open up the south and add loads of new content


Players being able to build structures (gates) in the future has been mentioned....
Celly S
Neutin Local LLC
#1012 - 2014-10-11 15:05:54 UTC
Drigo Segvian wrote:
a disgruntled player wrote:
So basically you caved in to the 0.0 carebears.



No, they are just going to phase it in while other areas are also adjusted for a more complete change


it's ok, you only see statements like that from a few folks who can't be bothered to read what's written, are trolling, don't care about anything but their own agenda, or lack reading comprehension skills.

:)

at least you understand what he wrote...

o/
Celly Smunt

Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#1013 - 2014-10-11 15:06:49 UTC
Drigo Segvian wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
would you be willing to add a new regional gate from Tash-Murkon to Stain since it will now be impossible to make the jump post patch? That would really open up the south and add loads of new content


Players being able to build structures (gates) in the future has been mentioned....


True though i always figured that would be in some new far off region that is K space but only found via Worm holes and you would have to colonise the planets for ships crew and build stargates to link up systems...

though even if they did not do this.... i dont think they would allow us to make stargates in low sec systems

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Praal
Bearded BattleBears
#1014 - 2014-10-11 15:46:36 UTC
Celly S wrote:
The only thing i can see that would be a hindrance to that would be the "station may be inaccessible" aspect of it when people try to buy the products that are produced locally.

I mean the big groups can step up to the plate and make some "free trade zones" that are accessible to all without fear of destruction, but, if they do that more folks are going to holler about the blue doughnut even though that won't really be the case and if logistics allow for it, then just going to jita to sell their wares and buy what they need already accomplishes the same thing.

It is true that "there's no easy solution to this" and with that said, I have no doubt that the community will figure something out when left to their own devices.

This is an idea to promote production in null, not en elimination of global logistics/trade. Local trade isn't really possible between non-blue entities because of the danger involved (in going to their station, in allowing enemies into your station, being camped in by your vendors, etc).

To be honest, no matter what changes happen I expect that each region will be held by one, maybe two, entities. Safety in numbers will always be a thing and a 10-15 gate trip is a very viable distance for assistance even if the jump drive was completely killed off. Smaller groups that tried to stand alone would sooner or later be subsumed or displaced by groups that band together.

Local trade could maybe be accomplished if the map got a makeover, pushing null regions further out from hisec and the NPC sov/lowsec reshuffled. Combined with a removal of tax on pirate stations and an increase in hisec taxes and with making JFs unable to enter hisec (but have none of this fatigue crap), this could promote the rise of a handful of null trade hubs.

Even more ideally it would be if these areas would be lowsec (no bubbling in) pirate (no tax, everyone can dock) stations strategically interspersed in each zone of the null (N,E, S, W). Combine this with the aforementioned production promotion in null and non-hisec trade hubs might be a thing.
Kiryen O'Bannon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1015 - 2014-10-11 15:55:38 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
would you be willing to add a new regional gate from Tash-Murkon to Stain since it will now be impossible to make the jump post patch? That would really open up the south and add loads of new content


How does "add a stargate to allow me to circumvent any effects from the changes" equate to "open up a ton of new content"?

Eternal Father, King of birth, /Who didst create the heaven and earth, /And bid the planets and the sun/ Their own appointed orbits run; /O hear us when we seek thy grace /For those who soar through outer space.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#1016 - 2014-10-11 16:11:57 UTC
Kiryen O'Bannon wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
would you be willing to add a new regional gate from Tash-Murkon to Stain since it will now be impossible to make the jump post patch? That would really open up the south and add loads of new content


How does "add a stargate to allow me to circumvent any effects from the changes" equate to "open up a ton of new content"?


regional gates are going to be hot cakes for pvp... and you think a stargate is safer then jumping?

Stain after the expansion will be even more desolate... but if there was even a tash-murkon to lower catch and then from lower catch to lets say tnn that would work great...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1017 - 2014-10-11 16:33:08 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
I have a request for the SiSi server.

Can we all get temporary all V skills so that we can all test capital ship changes?

Did you run out of titans already?
cecil b d'milf
Perkone
Caldari State
#1018 - 2014-10-11 16:40:21 UTC
Kiryen O'Bannon wrote:
GeeBee wrote:
This witch hunt of nerfing power projection makes be believe that CCP has lost sight of this being a sandbox MMO. All these silly regulations and stipulations and tribulations closing loops holes. Its a sandbox, what you're currently doing is overkill.


The "Sandbox Argument", in fact, is a perfect example of fallacious reasoning - specifically Non Sequiter and Special Pleading, and can easily be countered by Reduction to Absurdity.

All game mechanics and rules are regulations and stipulations of some sort. The fact that this is a game about spaceships and not wizards and dragons is a stipulation. The fact that a "cruiser" is larger than a "frigate" is a stipulation. Every game mechanic is a "Regulation" of some sort.

It therefore does not follow (Non Sequiter) that there is something wrong with the proposed changes simply because they introduce new and different stipulations, regulations, or close "loopholes". All game changes and updates do that in some respect; in fact even creating the game in the first place did so. Your argument, if taken literally, is that changes to the game are bad because they are changes and that a "sandbox" precludes balancing or improvement attempts (regardless of the merits of the individual attempts) because it might somehow affect player behavior. This is your argument taken to its logical conclusion and thereby reduced to absurdity.

There is no strict wall between "themepark" and "sandbox" but it defies reason to suggest that creating new rules (the "box" part of the sandBOX) to revitalize areas of the game that are stagnating inherently changes the game into a themepark.

What you are REALLY trying to argue (and will no doubt deny in a fit of "you can't read my mind!" despite making your real intentions pretty transparent) is that these changes somehow make the game "themepark" because you don't like them. You have some arbitrary line or criteria in your mind based on the gameplay you want to engage in, and this somehow violates it, so therefore it magically becomes "too themepark". This is Special Pleading at it's finest "These changes are too themepark and bad for the game because I don't like them!"

Like most people, you then make the case that this somehow means disaster for EVE. It is a common conceit of MMO players anywhere that any change they personally disapprove of means mass exodus from the game, but if MMO companies actually listened to such nonsense, we'd still be playing Everquest without any expansions.


I think Gee Bee wants to play OMNIPOTENT ONLINE.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1019 - 2014-10-11 16:54:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
MeBiatch wrote:
Kiryen O'Bannon wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
would you be willing to add a new regional gate from Tash-Murkon to Stain since it will now be impossible to make the jump post patch? That would really open up the south and add loads of new content


How does "add a stargate to allow me to circumvent any effects from the changes" equate to "open up a ton of new content"?


regional gates are going to be hot cakes for pvp... and you think a stargate is safer then jumping?

Stain after the expansion will be even more desolate... but if there was even a tash-murkon to lower catch and then from lower catch to lets say tnn that would work great...

But you weren't jumping if it was impossible to make the jump. Instead you'd be taking even MORE stargates.

Taking MORE stargates provides even more hot cakes for pvp

Mmm hotcakes.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Momma Yeti
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1020 - 2014-10-11 17:01:11 UTC
I still don't get it, but meh, I'm just a paying sub playing a video game.

Another thing I don't get...again maybe I'm just a dumb ass... But you talked about new players less then 31 days old not being affected, what nullsec corp (outside of alts) takes a new pilot into their fold that's A: Less then 31 days & B: less then x number of skill points trained?

So at that point what does it matter that you put a 31 day stay of this mechanic for new players venturing into nullsec? Wouldn't this just encourage people to make alts all the damn time to run the jump bridged with out penalty?