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[Phoebe] Long Distance Travel Changes - updates!

First post First post First post
Author
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#981 - 2014-10-11 09:29:01 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
Shilalasar wrote:
Mike Azariah wrote:
Over all I would say the tone, the mood, of this thread is far far different from the last. Maybe because it is coming into focus? Maybe because everybody burned out on the last one.


Maybe because everybody knows without real changes to logistics this changes nothing at all, feels let down AGAIN and has just given up by now?


what would you define as real changes?

I mean 90% and double the jump range of almost everyone else. what more do you want?

m


You see all this cheering and happiness for a reason.

CCP has caved in to the cries and has greatly watered down the whole expansion.

They may as well leave everything as is, because by leaving logistics so strong, they leave force projection much, much stronger than the initial plans.

That's why everybody who benefit by force projection are happy, they now know they just have to adapt a bit and do things in a different way, yet they'll retain all what they want.
Celly S
Neutin Local LLC
#982 - 2014-10-11 09:43:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Celly S
CCP Greyscale wrote:


Azami Nevinyrall wrote:
Is there any idea when you'll allow Carriers into Highsec?

Can it be done by Phoebe?


No, it's technically trivial, the main work is in working through all the likely consequences and resolving any problems, and that'll take time.



Hi Sir,
The easiest way is to simply disallow the use of triage modules and maybe even drone control modules in .5 space or above, we can look at limiting the use of fighters/fighter-bombers too, which would mean that carriers would have to carry a compliment of "high sec" drones, or even approach the removal of the ability to "delegate" drone control in the same .5 or higher space.

these simple changes would limit carriers enough that they would still be viable, but not OP in high sec since they would still not be able to go through warp gates for most missions.

We can leave this to carriers, but not supers because they can't be docked up anyway.

of course, their jump drives wouldn't be an issue as you can't light a cyno in high sec, so no high sec hot drops would happen, but they could still jump out of high sec if needed (and not scrammed)...

o/
Just a thought.
Celly Smunt

Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator.

Megarom
Shiva
Northern Coalition.
#983 - 2014-10-11 09:46:56 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Great post about timers.


Maybe there is so better way to solve the unique challenges of designing territory/infrastructure control system for a 24/7 global online game. Maybe that better way doesn't have timers in the explicit way Dominion Sov has. Maybe the timers are there, but the details are different so that current pain points are addressed. For sure there is going to be a way for the defender to mount a meaningful defense against an attacker that is mainly active in totally different timezone.

In general, I wish the quality of comments about the mechanics would be elevated and when relevant put into context of game design of other games, both board and computer.
JC Anderson
RED ROSE THORN
#984 - 2014-10-11 09:51:51 UTC  |  Edited by: JC Anderson
Morrigan Arthie wrote:
Null is dead because of stupid tidi. You take out a 50 man gang and spend 2 minutes at every gate, meanwhile any potential target or urgent fleet op gets away, now thats unbalanced.
Fix this and i will come back and pay for eve.


Although TiDi is lame, it was FAR WORSE before TiDi. Before TiDi, you might click on a gate to jump into a system, and 45 minutes later you finally unfreeze and load the grid....... And find out you had already been exploded before you ever loaded grid in the first place.

But yes, it was nothing more than a band-aid, and I had hoped after this long they might have come up with something better.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#985 - 2014-10-11 09:55:21 UTC
Querns wrote:
xXThe EntityXx wrote:
I hope you guys realize that these changes still do not allow the supply of anything to Venal unless you own Tribute, essentially making it SOV space rather than NPC nullsec. The shortest jump available is 10.028 ly, just outside the range of a JF.

Close, but keep trying. There's actually a way in under the 10LY range.

I guess I could TELL you, but what would be the fun in that?

I think you might want to check again, unless you count the 1 unstationed system you can jump to as ok for a jump freighter.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Shilalasar
Dead Sky Inc.
#986 - 2014-10-11 09:56:08 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
Shilalasar wrote:
Mike Azariah wrote:
Over all I would say the tone, the mood, of this thread is far far different from the last. Maybe because it is coming into focus? Maybe because everybody burned out on the last one.


Maybe because everybody knows without real changes to logistics this changes nothing at all, feels let down AGAIN and has just given up by now?


what would you define as real changes?

I mean 90% and double the jump range of almost everyone else. what more do you want?

m


Less than 10 Lj range and no reduction on freighters, as is was stated in the beginning.
Nofearion
Tr0pa de elite.
Pandemic Horde
#987 - 2014-10-11 09:59:05 UTC
I like the upcoming changes, and the plan for the future.
in reading post in this thread I have noticed a few things,
One the biggest complainers about the JF being left largely alone obviously have not done the logistics required to live deep in Null.
1. JF are very expensive and hard to find when needing to be replaced.
2. Time, vers cargo is good, however these ships are slow, and not very agile, an easy target when caught.
3. using them is very high risk even under current conditions, and I know you do not see many going gate to gate in high sec.
4. I believe in the future nerfs - provided we can survive and supply currently if we could not the shock would cause a lot of people to unsub and you still would not have easy targets.

In conclusion on this thought CCP Greyscale keep up the good work. I do have one question that I feel is related
besides ore rebalance has thought gone into looking at Moo goo as it relates to TII production and producing TII modules? As it is now there are several end requirements that are regionalized and require large quantities to be run to hi sec for trade.

Again thanks for all the hard work by CCP null sec team
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#988 - 2014-10-11 10:09:21 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
Shilalasar wrote:
Mike Azariah wrote:
Over all I would say the tone, the mood, of this thread is far far different from the last. Maybe because it is coming into focus? Maybe because everybody burned out on the last one.


Maybe because everybody knows without real changes to logistics this changes nothing at all, feels let down AGAIN and has just given up by now?


what would you define as real changes?

I mean 90% and double the jump range of almost everyone else. what more do you want?

m

If you are asking that seriously, I only hope all those who voted for you last time will know better next year.
You obviously have no idea on what people who are not in 1 of the major bloks have to go through just to survive day by day.

Your learning well from the Devs, seeing disbelief and a feeling of helplessness as a positive.


My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Azami Nevinyrall
172.0.0.1
#989 - 2014-10-11 10:09:42 UTC
Celly S wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:


Azami Nevinyrall wrote:
Is there any idea when you'll allow Carriers into Highsec?

Can it be done by Phoebe?


No, it's technically trivial, the main work is in working through all the likely consequences and resolving any problems, and that'll take time.



Hi Sir,
The easiest way is to simply disallow the use of triage modules and maybe even drone control modules in .5 space or above, we can look at limiting the use of fighters/fighter-bombers too, which would mean that carriers would have to carry a compliment of "high sec" drones, or even approach the removal of the ability to "delegate" drone control in the same .5 or higher space.

these simple changes would limit carriers enough that they would still be viable, but not OP in high sec since they would still not be able to go through warp gates for most missions.

We can leave this to carriers, but not supers because they can't be docked up anyway.

of course, their jump drives wouldn't be an issue as you can't light a cyno in high sec, so no high sec hot drops would happen, but they could still jump out of high sec if needed (and not scrammed)...

o/
Just a thought.
Celly Smunt


That's already been brought up!

Good to know others think the same way!

Azami Nevinyrall wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:


No, it's technically trivial, the main work is in working through all the likely consequences and resolving any problems, and that'll take time.

Can you be more specific?

The only advantage to having a Carrier is the Drones and Capital modules...(unless I'm wrong.)

Prevent anything involving the word "Capital" in its module name from being activated in Highsec. Just like bombs and interdiction probes.

Prevent Fighters and more then 5 regular drones being deployed in Highsec.


Is there anything that We're unaware of that's the problem with Carriers in Highsec?

P.S. When you guys re-balance them, split their Drone bays into 2 separate ones. One for Fighters, which needs to be massive! The other 4-500m3 for regular drones

...

Jaiimez Skor
The Infamous.
#990 - 2014-10-11 10:21:24 UTC
Keith Planck wrote:
there goes incentives to include indy production in nullsec
rip

Have you actually tried industry in nullsec on an alliance scale, you shall find you have more megacyte than you ever know what to do with, but literally begging people for pyerite, and offering to sell body parts for some, the increased range to JF's is temporary Greyscale said this, part of Phase 2 is to rebalance nullsec this will include making it possible for alliances to be self sufficient. And he said once this occurs the JF will be reviewed again. Right now no alliance can survive without empire because of the requirement to ship in low end minerals, and until they rebalance this dependancy nerding JF logistics is just going to ruin the game.

Hey guys lets go on a fleet, oh we can't were still waiting for our local suppliers to get enough trit to build anything.
Yang Aurilen
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#991 - 2014-10-11 10:23:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Yang Aurilen
Quote:

Trial account upgrade improvements

Messaging around limitations on trial accounts and the path to subscription are being improved in Phoebe. A number of limitations for trial accounts are also being removed, such as the ability to fly battleships and participate in incursions and factional warfare. More information in an upcoming dev blog.


I hope the devs reconsider the bolded part. The lat thing I want is trial accounts literal legions afk of deplexing systems then getting thrown away by the guy using it and registering new accounts.

Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!

GeeBee
Backwater Redux
Tactical Narcotics Team
#992 - 2014-10-11 10:31:50 UTC  |  Edited by: GeeBee
This witch hunt of nerfing power projection makes be believe that CCP has lost sight of this being a sandbox MMO. All these silly regulations and stipulations and tribulations closing loops holes. Its a sandbox, what you're currently doing is overkill. The only real power projection problems have been rooted into the carrier and titan bridge chains IMO. Rather than taking a sledge hammer to the universe how about starting with a regular nail driver.

Its hilarious how many people are cheering for these changes thinking it will make some miracle cure all allowing them to be victorious. In reality it affects everyone equally, it will not give any smaller entities any benefit and longterm will hurt smaller / independent groups more, possibly add to nullsec stagnation and further promotes larger entities.

But hey it seems I'm alone on sanity island, the rest of you clowns that keep cheering for these needless changes be careful what you wish for.

The number of foundational mechanics that are being broken by these changes is off the greyscale, we're entering the plaidscale zone.
Things that will be gone that really shouldn't be
1) Suitcase carrier - the ability to move your subcaps from one place to another. This can be seen as force projection but its also just quality of life. The carrier is the entry level ship for anyone getting into being an independent nullsec player or entity. While carrier blobs are certainly in need of balance completely cutting this foundational mechanic out of the game is silly.
2) Jump Bridges, Seriously they got nerfed plenty in that patch that was right before Incarna, remember when we could have 2 JBs per system, those were the days...full fatigue on JBs is just insane and unwarranted.
3) Jump Fatigue breaks evac operations. Being on the loosing end of a fight just became a lot more expensive if you're gonna loose your space.

This entire proposal is a kneejerk reaction. Earlier this summer Jump Drives got nerfed with increased fuel consumption and the isotopes volumes were changed. Now you're basically proposing that aside from JFs we stop using jump drives all together. If you were planning to do this back then that change likely wouldn't have happened. This entire set of changes is very quickly thought up, poorly planned, and un-needed.
Alp Khan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#993 - 2014-10-11 10:36:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Alp Khan
Marlona Sky wrote:
Polo Marco wrote:
Just say NO!!! to timers.


Timers are an interesting mechanic. They always seem to suck to no end when a group is on the offensive and they hit the timer brick wall and have to wrap up the fleet and reform at a later date. For defenders they are a blessing. Offering them time to form a defensive fleet, call in help, anything to try and repel the attackers. Well, unless of course you forgot to stront the tower? Ugh

Love them or hate them timers are needed. Just imagine your group just assembled this fancy new tower in a system to call home. You group doesn't have crazy good numbers in all time zones and you all slowly call it a night. As you all log back into the game the next day, you notice your POS is now in reinforce mode. Because of the timer now you have a chance to form some form a defense for when they come back. Basically a chance to fight for the moon.

Now imagine if there was no timer.

Your buddies and you would log back in and find the POS completely destroyed and most likely staring down the angry barrels of an enemy POS weapon system. All without even having a chance to defend your precious POS. Imagine if it was a station? You go to work with a decent amount of assets in a player built station, flip some burgers all day, come home and now the station belongs to someone else and all your internet spaceship stuff is trapped inside.

Why bother living and investing in a system, moon, POS, whatever if it can be snatched away from you in silly time zone wars without even having a chance to have some input into the game to keep it?

Players need to feel it is worth the risk of losing these things. This is done via rewards for investing in living out in null or holding a moon or what have you. No reward is worth the risk of losing everything because you decided to sleep, work, go to school, step out to the bar, go to Fanfest or basically have a normal life. Everyone would just dwell in NPC stations and never venture into the deep dark depths of the unknown*.

So while what we know as a timer might be changed, the principal will most likely be intact. A way to offer the defender a chance to actually defend without get an IV of Redbull and slip into some zombie, insomnia mode losing more weight than Christian Bale in the 'Machinist'.

Or, perhaps there is another reason for the timers, but this was always the one that made the most sense to me. I hope this drawn out version helps. If not, I'm sure there is legions of people typing furiously away to loudly tell me I am wrong in every possible way. Big smile


You are taking up a fallacy here. You are likening the space asset defensive timers, which are absolutely necessary, as EVE is a game that does not offer different servers to different timezones, to the arbitrary timers placed on invidivual characters, because Greyscale does not know any better.

Defensive timers are there to give owners time and opportunity to form up for a showdown between them and attackers. EVE players live in different time zones, and their schedules vary greatly as a result. As such, to prevent EVE from becoming a game of time zones (and poopsocking) defensive timers are rightly put into place.

In stark contrast, arbitrary timer restrictions placed on individual characters is never a smart way to handle anything. Sooner or later, the individual player will have enough and decide to invest his spare time in another game that does not invoke arbitrary, poorly thought mechanics.

The seemingly positive responses in this thread strictly acknowledge and celebrate a) The end of capital and supercapital combat projection b) The fact that Greyscale backtracked and did not completely annihilate null logistics, which is essential for life in null and for EVE economy and markets in any region of the game

The fallacy you took up does not change the obvious outcome that this poorly thought, theme park oriented and sandbox killing Greyscale plan will eventually result in the loss of more subscriptions and will be remembered as a nail on the coffin of EVE Online.

Please stop using similar weak fallacies in the future. Such attempts of obvious manipulation in support of some personal agenda you might have is simply an insult to the intelligence of anybody who is following this thread.
Epi Chanlin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#994 - 2014-10-11 10:38:35 UTC
So basicly, you are now also penalizing travelling? This sure if a friendly game for new players. Cry
Jack Macca
Empire Assault Corp
Dead Terrorists
#995 - 2014-10-11 10:42:46 UTC
Hello CCP,
keep the usage jump bridge out of fatigue mechanism. This is going to hurt a lot nullsec livers while moving in subcaps fleets, hauling stuff or even evac from a lost system.
I'm up for the other changes but do not nerf jump bridges again.

jm
Christopher Multsanti
Ndrangheta Vendetta
#996 - 2014-10-11 10:52:20 UTC
Thank you for listening! I like these changes!
Alp Khan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#997 - 2014-10-11 10:56:24 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Mike Azariah wrote:
Over all I would say the tone, the mood, of this thread is far far different from the last. Maybe because it is coming into focus? Maybe because everybody burned out on the last one.

Perhaps both?

As far as the exploit that is going to happen in reguards to abusing the 90-95% reduction in Jump Fatigue - everyone is making plans to do it. Ship fits are being finalized, routes, the works. So it really is not a matter of if players will abuse it, but more of a matter of how long after Phoebe hits will CCP decide to fix the loophole. So hopefully Phoebe 1.1 will include this and CCP will not wait too long to do the update.

I don't like the loophole, but if CCP insists on shipping Phoebe with it, there is not much else one can do but wait till they patch it out later. Other than that, it looks like a hopeful expansion to maybe cause some breakup of the super coalitions. It really feels like a coin toss to be honest.

The other features coming with the expansion are real nice. Lots of good stuff that everyone will enjoy, no matter what flag they are flying. There is still tons and tons of room for improvement all over the game, but as long as CCP keeps at it the game can be turned around and become highly enjoyable for current and (hopefully) future players.

Now, about that local chat window... P


Oh dear, the people you hang out with probably aren't bright enough to figure out the interceptors are the ultimate travel shuttles now.

It was said before, I'll repeat it again. Nobody sane and/or smart is going to use an Industrial as a loophole to bypass jump fatigue. These are filmsy, slow to align, slow in warp ships that are suspect to getting caught by bubbles and they are not survivable at all once they get caught. Also add the fact that an industrial taking a bridge will still have to account for jump fatigue.

Besides, in every route imaginable, taking gates in a travel fit interceptor, that is immune to bubbles, cannot be caught on gates due to insta warp, extremely fast in warp and packing an impressive tank for it's size is going to get you there sooner than you can take bridges in an industrial.

Jump fatigue as a mechanic is stupid. However, if CCP insists on implementing this, then it's only sensible that industrials and haulers as a group suffer less from it as null logistics in every scale, from T1 industrials, to Jump Freighters, are essential for life in null and the stability of EVE markets everywhere!

Do not dictate your personal agenda or your fantasies of how you would like null players play this game by ~pointing out~ a false concern like the mythical shuttle industrials again please. Nobody cares about your tribal outlook or your partisan views.

Space Wanderer
#998 - 2014-10-11 11:17:22 UTC

Hi Greyscale, just an observation.

I think you are aware of that, but do not expect that any power block will actually start to make some serious production locally if they can just import everything they need from Jita. If you want them to start doing some serious industry (and in so doing starting hiring also people who do industry, instead than only pvpers) you will NEED to give nullsec the shock of cutting the logistics.

Now, if you know from hard numbers that nullsec industry is currently untenable by the current amount/distribution of raw materials, by all means take your time fo fix things before cutting the umbilical cord. But I would advise you to choose wisely the numbers you are looking at; most of the industry-related resources that do not pay much (but are still useful for industry) are simply unexploited becase most people in 0.0 do not bother with industry, and actually most systems are wholly untapped because their "owners" do not really live there. So it is my opinion that looking at statistics like "amount of ore mined per person" or "ships produced per person" is not going to be useful. Probably more useful to make this decision are statistics unrelated to the actual activity of the players, and more oriented towards the potential production achievable in nullsec like "maximum ore minable in a system/constellation/region".

But whatever the route you take, keep in mind that nothing industry-wise will change in nullsec until the logistic is nerfed hard. But I think you already know that.
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#999 - 2014-10-11 11:38:59 UTC
GeeBee wrote:
This witch hunt of nerfing power projection makes be believe that CCP has lost sight of this being a sandbox MMO. All these silly regulations and stipulations and tribulations closing loops holes. Its a sandbox, what you're currently doing is overkill. The only real power projection problems have been rooted into the carrier and titan bridge chains IMO. Rather than taking a sledge hammer to the universe how about starting with a regular nail driver.

Its hilarious how many people are cheering for these changes thinking it will make some miracle cure all allowing them to be victorious. In reality it affects everyone equally, it will not give any smaller entities any benefit and longterm will hurt smaller / independent groups more, possibly add to nullsec stagnation and further promotes larger entities.

But hey it seems I'm alone on sanity island, the rest of you clowns that keep cheering for these needless changes be careful what you wish for.

The number of foundational mechanics that are being broken by these changes is off the greyscale, we're entering the plaidscale zone.
Things that will be gone that really shouldn't be
1) Suitcase carrier - the ability to move your subcaps from one place to another. This can be seen as force projection but its also just quality of life. The carrier is the entry level ship for anyone getting into being an independent nullsec player or entity. While carrier blobs are certainly in need of balance completely cutting this foundational mechanic out of the game is silly.
2) Jump Bridges, Seriously they got nerfed plenty in that patch that was right before Incarna, remember when we could have 2 JBs per system, those were the days...full fatigue on JBs is just insane and unwarranted.
3) Jump Fatigue breaks evac operations. Being on the loosing end of a fight just became a lot more expensive if you're gonna loose your space.

This entire proposal is a kneejerk reaction. Earlier this summer Jump Drives got nerfed with increased fuel consumption and the isotopes volumes were changed. Now you're basically proposing that aside from JFs we stop using jump drives all together. If you were planning to do this back then that change likely wouldn't have happened. This entire set of changes is very quickly thought up, poorly planned, and un-needed.

Someone else said this, but I think is the most helpful example to help people like yourself understand why instant force projection is bad for the game and why people are happy for its removal.

I'm sure you played a game called Risk before. In Risk you can move your pieces to one adjacent square each turn. At the moment in the current status quo in eve, you can move your pieces anywhere across the board in one turn. I hope you can understand what would happen if this was the case in Risk, and therefore see why it is game breaking in eve also hence the blue doughnut.
Polo Marco
Four Winds
#1000 - 2014-10-11 11:42:38 UTC
Alp Khan wrote:


The seemingly positive responses in this thread strictly acknowledge and celebrate a) The end of capital and supercapital combat projection b) The fact that Greyscale backtracked and did not completely annihilate null logistics, which is essential for life in null and for EVE economy and markets in any region of the game

The fallacy you took up does not change the obvious outcome that this poorly thought, theme park oriented and sandbox killing Greyscale plan will eventually result in the loss of more subscriptions and will be remembered as a nail on the coffin of EVE Online.

Please stop using similar weak fallacies in the future. Such attempts of obvious manipulation in support of some personal agenda you might have is simply an insult to the intelligence of anybody who is following this thread.



The only people in these forums who listen to the "end of Eve gloom and doom" rant are the trolls. They delight in "askinforallyourstuffs" and "realquittersbiomass" responses. Is this travel nerf a bad idea? Absolutely. But will Eve die tomorrow because of it? Of course not.

Subscriptions and logins have been tailing off for the last year. Some failed peripheral projects have left CCP with an overabundance of talented and hardworking, coders , modelers, and designers. The result is a massive burst of features, improvements, and content the likes of which I have never seen in ANYWHERE else in my eleven and some odd years (six right here) of adventures in the MMO world. Let me tell you this:

WHEN CCP GETS IT RIGHT, THEY GET IT RIGHT BETTER THAN ANY OTHER PUBLISHER.

CCP Seagull has got her shop running at capacity, and I for one am impressed and grateful.

But I also think that maybe they should slow down some. Harebrained schemes like this would never proceed to the production phase with proper critical review in house. When the developers don't find the devil's advocate until an idea reaches the player base the they need to step back and take a look at their vetting process. The mechanics proposed here break so many other aspects of gameplay that there is too big a risk in simply "deploying it and seeing what happens" I'm still blogging this in hopes of avoiding a train wreck, but like most Eve players I'll cheerfully loot every car that I can when it happens. Neither my subscription or my job is on the line here.

These jump drive changes come packaged in a crate with "ACME" printed its side.

BEEP BEEP

Eve teaches hard lessons. Don't blame the game for your own failures.